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Trac Pipe
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IBS_Guy
Member Posts: 19
Generally speaking is Trac Pipe acceptable for connection to a residential boiler? I'm having a gas service installed this month and want to install a new range right away but I won't be changing the boiler / burner until fall.
Since I don't want to have the gas piping done twice, I would like the gas fitter (who will have to pipe in from the new meter) to make sure the line is big enough for expansion and to leave a Tee with a plugged valve in the line for later use.
Since I don't want to have the gas piping done twice, I would like the gas fitter (who will have to pipe in from the new meter) to make sure the line is big enough for expansion and to leave a Tee with a plugged valve in the line for later use.
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Comments
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Trac Pipe
Personal preference, I don't like or install Trac Pipe, Gastite, etc. I think the cost is as much per the NEC grounding done properly, as the cost of running black pipe. If the Trac pipe is to be run through a wall it must be sleeved with pipe anyway. That is my opinion.There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Flexible gas pipe.
I am not a contractor, but I do have a piece of CSST in my garage where my gas boiler is. It must be properly bonded and grounded, and mine is not. When the CSST was installed, they might as well have put black pipe in, since it could have been a straight run. But my former contractor did not do that.
In addition, there is no really good way to ground it. I might be able to get it done in a way that passes the code, but I would not trust it because the ground wire would be too long.
Since you do not have the flex pipe in there yet, I suggest you save yourself a lot of aggravation and have black pipe installed to begin with.0 -
Trac Pipe CSST
It doesn't have to be "grounded", it must be "bonded". There's a difference. The electrical distribution is "bonded" and appliances are "bonded" with the neutral system where it is "grounded" to the electrical system. The brass fittings are where the bond clamp goes. Every electrical supply house, Lowes and HD have bins full of bonding clamps. If you don't know the difference, then you are not certified to install the stuff. We Professional licensed fitters have all been recertified. If not, it is illegal to install CSST.
Only Hacks run CSST directly to a boiler or an appliance. Most will run CSST along a ceiling then switch to hard pipe to connect to a boiler.
If you asked me to do what you want, I wouldn't leave you a tee so you could connect the boiler. I personally want to part of an unlicensed homeowner or handyperson connecting to a fitting I left for them to do something illegal. I don't want the potential legal entanglement if something goes wrong .0 -
Home Owners
Most home owners don't know the difference between "grounding" and " bonding. NeC code article 250.104 explains how to do this. I all kinds of professional licensed fitters and HVAC people that don't do it right. I have never seen the clamps at Lowes or HomeDepot that are approved by the NEC, they have water pipe clamps but they also have bonding clamps for CSST?There was an error rendering this rich post.
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trac pipe
Only "hacks" run CSST directly to an appliance.
Be careful of whom you speak badly of......0 -
Bonding and grounding.
"It doesn't have to be "grounded", it must be "bonded". There's a difference."
As a non licensed, unqualified non-installer of the CSST in my house, I can see a difference between bonding and grounding. I could BOND all the metal in my house together with #4 braided wire, for example, and it would all be bonded. But it might not be grounded at all.
As a practical matter, it would be grounded through the ground pins of some of the appliances I have that have them, and perhaps also through the neutral wire of some of the rest. The neutral and the ground wires are tied together in the power panel. Now this grounding is probably sufficient to keep me from killing myself if something leaks inside one of my appliances. This protection in my house is less than I care for because the distance between the power panel and the ground stakes is so large.
Now even if all my gas pipe, including especially the black pipe at each end, and the CSST in the middle were bonded together, none of it would be grounded. So if I got lightning surges in the CSST, what good would the bonding actually do? It might keep the threads in the fittings at either end from getting welded or something. But it would not provide a path for these currents to get from the CSST to ground. And the risk of not bonding seems to be the arcing from the CSST to its environs burning holes in the stainless steel. So bonding is not enough unless the thing is also connected (bonded?) to a suitable ground through a suitably short wire.
We seem to be disagreeing about this point. I doubt it is a fundamental issue, but one of terminology, but I do not see where the disagreement arises. I believe the use of CSST would require it to be bonded to everything around it and to be grounded as well. I infer (but I may be mistaken) that you do not think grounding is important, where I think both are important. Can you tell if we disagree, or just misunderstand one another?0 -
Bonding.....Grounding
It is just a technical term, most don't seem to be done properly. Per NEC code black pipe is to be bonded also. I wouldn't say that people are "Hacks" are doing it wrong, everyone needs to understand the code and sometimes it difficult to interpret.There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Only "hacks" run CSST directly to an appliance.
I suppose so. Even my former contractor did not do that. He ran one inch black pipe from the meter into my garage, then up to the ceiling. He then ran about one inch yellow CSST across the ceiling to above my boiler. From there one inch black pipe down a foot or two, then reducer to 3/4 inch to go through a shutoff valve, then through a reducer to 1/2 inch dark, but not black, nipples and fittings to get to the boiler that has a 1/2 inch gas input fitting. None of this is grounded or bonded. The water part of my boiler is grounded through the copper piping, but that does not seem to be connected electrically with the gas piping. Also, I do not know if you are permitted to use the copper water pipping as the official grounding conductor.0 -
Bonding
Has to be bonded to the electric panel, not a water pipe. Minimum of 4ga bare copper wire, one end of each piece of CSST needs to be bonded with a NEC approved connector on the fitting, not the CSST.There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Al please do not take offense
But in the state of Mass and the current code to meet them you need to drop to the boiler or water heater with rigid pipe. The installations I see done with CSST in my area direct to the boiler are done by hacks. Any product can be installed poorly. Some can not be installed well even by professionals. I only install iron piping for natural gas.Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
cell # 413-841-6726
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating0 -
Check your NFPA Rob.
Black pipe completes the electrical bond with the grounding of the appliance.
The differentiation comes with how gas service comes out of the ground or possibly connects to the above ground tank. I think. I have been doing this for a long time and I am more confused now than I was a year ago. I have personally sworn off of CSST. I have gone back to black iron and roll copper for my LP installtions (we do not have natural gas in this part of Maine). Where seismic provisions must be made, I use an approved and appropriately sized appliance connector. The state electrical inspectors are trying to clarify for us and the electricians that, by state code, have to be the ones that connect the bonding wire to the electrical system.
After reading some of the litigation on the books, no thanks. I have gone back to what has worked for me for all these years.
IBS_Guy, what you are asking the fitter to do puts him at great risk of legal liability and very few of us would provide such a connection provision with the knowledge that the homeowner would connect to it.
Oil wipes up, gas blows up. Leave the gas piping to the professionals.0 -
NFPA
Meplumber, you are correct that "if" the appliance is bonded to the system via the electrical system from the ground, not the grounded conductor then the appliance is bonded. How many people understand how to check this? I'm a electrician and HVAC tech, self employed, I install large electrical systems and I see a lot of people that don't check to see if it is bonded to the ground properly. There has to be less than 25 ohms to ground at the electrical service, if there is more then this then there is issues. It will not only cause grounding issues but transient voltage which can effect printed circuit boards, PLC's and so on. I ONLY install black pipe as here locally there have been many issues with CSST pipe.There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Per NEC code
black pipe is to be bonded also.
Does the bonding have to be done at every joint, fitting, etc.? Or just at one end? Or in the middle? And if it is not necessary at every fitting, why is it necessary to bond CSST pipe if the black pipe at either end is bonded to something? And should it not be bonded to something that is grounded? If not, what is the real purpose of bonding if not to ensure a reliable connection to ground?0 -
Black Pipe
Is to be bonded in one spot closet to the meter, after the meter. Just like a water main, you must bond on either side of the water meter as the meter has rubber washers and it's not a continous ground. Many years ago the NEC or NFPA came out with conduit had to have a continuous ground wire running through it, before you didn't have to do that as each connector was thought to ground it but that was a mechanical ground (screw) that could come loose. So, you don't have to bond black pipe at every joint as it is a continuous bond and not able to come loose. CSST has to be bonded at one end of the pipe on the CONNECTOR as the connector is not a continuous connection to ground. CSST is just like a water meter, not a continuous connection to ground. Continuity is a good test with a meter but when you put power to things electricity changes.There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Trac Pipe, Bonding and Grounding:
The only home or structure that may be properly grounded and bonded is a structure with a listed lightning suppression system, properly designed and installed. And that would include grounding/bonding on the likes of garage door tracks and anything metal that lightning could flash over on to.
The last home I had where I work was hit twice in 6 weeks. The damage wasn't as bad as it could have been because I had a 2" galvanized driven well that I had bonded and grounded the electrical system to. Both strikes went through the well. If a full lightning strike hit a house with 1/2" OD copper on LP gas, it would melt the tube like butter in a pan.
Black steel pipe is a very poor conductor of electricity. It's a toss up over which is worse. Steel pipe of Stainless steel pipe. Because steel pipe is a good conductor of heat and stainless steel is not, I would suggest that the SS is worse. Most house fires caused by lightning are from the speed and friction of the electrical charge at the speed of light, traveling through the structure and starting a smoldering fire.
I heard the same BS when PVC waste and vent came in and started replacing copper. Some were refusing to use it as inferior. Today, most couldn't solder 3" copper DWV fittings and not have leaks. Ten years from now, it may be the same with CSST.0 -
I learn something new everyday.
Like I said earlier, I am more confused about the subject now, than I was a year ago.
I am not an electrician. I am licensed for the electrical related to my equipment, but bonding has to be done by a licensed master electrician up here.
I keep waiting for NFPA 70 and NFPA 54 & 58 to get on the same page and issue us some specific directions. Until then, I am staying away from CSST. Just not worth the hassle and risk.
Side note, since we don't do natural gas here (LP only), we have not been required to bond black iron pipe coming into the building. That might change, but has not been required in the past.
I am curious if anyone else has given up on CSST.0 -
Bonded ...Grounded
it doesn't matter. It has never been tested and approved whether its bonded or not.
So its simple..just pretend its your wife and children sleeping in that home during an evening thunderstorm. Just run black pipe and be done with it! It doesn't matter if its deep water drilling or nuclear reactors or the gas pipe in your home... do it right or just dont do it.0 -
I do not get it.
"Is to be bonded in one spot closet to the meter, after the meter. Just
like a water main, you must bond on either side of the water meter as
the meter has rubber washers and it's not a continous ground."
Around here, you are not allowed to ground anything to a gas pipe. It would do no good to even try it because there is a dielectric union at the exit of the gas meter so there would be no ground there anyway. And furthermore, as soon as the metal pipe leaves the meter on the input side and enters the ground, it switches to flexible plastic pipe, so it would be a lousy ground anyway. So if I were to have a ground close to the meter, it had better by on the house side of the dielectric union.
But that conflicts with the requirement to ground through the power panel that is a long distance from where the gas pipe enters the house, and a long distance from the power panel to the ground stakes.
"CSST has to be bonded at one end of the pipe on the CONNECTOR as the connector is not a continuous connection to ground."
It seems to me that the brass connector at the end of a piece of CSST is just as continuous to the piece of black pipe as any other threaded connection. So if you do not need to bond one piece of black pipe to another, you should not need to bond to the connector at the end of a piece of CSST either. If there is a bonding problem between the brass fitting at the end of a piece of CSST, it is between the CSST and the coupling, and if that is a problem, bonding to the coupling would do no good. You would have to bond to the stainless part, and you are not supposed to do that.
"CSST is just like a water meter, not a continuous connection to ground."
If it is not a continuous connection to ground, it because of a defect between the coupling and the stainless part. and bonding to the coupling does not remedy that.0 -
Ten years from now
/*Cynicism ON*/
10 years from now, no one but "old timers" will use CSST. The newbies will be using the same plastic pipe as we now use at the ouput of our condensate pumps, the flexible clear plastic stuff. And if someone puts a staple or nail through it behind some drywall, tough.
/*Cynicism OFF*/0 -
Just run black pipe and be done with it!
That is the conclusion I am coming to.
I wonder if I need to get a building permit to do that, and have it inspected again (by the same inspector who approved the unbonded ungrounded CSST that is in there now). I probably do.0 -
Bonding
Page 57 describes how they want it bonded. Follow the installation manual that few even open. Whether you agree or disagree with the product we all should still promote that if used, it is done in accordance with the mfg installation manual.There was an error rendering this rich post.
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TracPipe Bonding:
I wonder how many complaining have been re-certified for use on the different brands of CSST. It all changed in 2009. The wholesaler I buy from used TiteFlex and had to switch to TracPipe. They only carry the black "Counterstrike". TracPipe bought their entire inventory and re-certified every one in the company and had re-certification classes two years ago for all us installers. The black carbon covering makes it less lightning susceptible. It will carry current. I have the same carbon strip on my electric horse fence and it carries 10,000 volts with little amps.
When in doubt, read the instructions. Read them often.
If you were certified in the 1990's and haven't been re-certified, you are installing illegally.0 -
Does that mean
wholesalers who are selling to contractors who were certified in the ninetys are criminals?0 -
As an old gas man
the way I understand things.
Grounding - a connection to the earth mass. This is done with ground rods, ground mats or other acceptable to local AHJ requirements. This is low resistance grounding is critical to the operation of any lightening protection systems
Bonding - This is an electrical connection from equipment to the grounding electrode. Its purpose is to protect people and equipment in the event of an electrical fault.
Might I say it was not unusual for gas technicians doing gas meter work to get a shock from gas piping. We equipped every service person with a heavy duty cable for protection against just such a thing when working on piping.
There was an interesting report done in August 2007 worth reading:
www.toolbase.org/pdf/techinv/csst_lighteningconcerns.pdf
Title: Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing for Fuel Gas Distribution in Buildings and Concerns Over Lighteneing Strikes.
Some excerpts relative to National Fuel Gas Code NFPA54/ANSI Z223.1. Up until 2002 the code in section 3.14 Electrical Bonding and Grounding required each above ground portion of gas piping to be electrically continuous and bonded to any grounding electrode as defined by National Electrical Code, ANSI/NFPA 70. I wonder how many of you working back then did that. I can tell you very few followed that code requirement. It was not enforced very well by inspectors either.
In 2002 Section 6.13 Electrical Bonding and Grounding was modified see excerpt below..
National Fuel Gas Code
The National Fuel Gas Code (NFGC) or NFPA 54 is the primary code document in the United States that covers the design, installation and inspection of natural gas and LP gas systems for all types of applications including residential, commercial and industrial. For the purposes of this report, the Code has had coverage for electrical bonding and grounding going back to the 1988 edition which is the year that CSST was commercially introduced in the United States. In the intervening 20 years, the coverage for bonding has only been changed once. The coverage for bonding in the 1988 edition was as follows:
(a) Each above ground portion of a gas piping system upstream from the equipment shutoff valve shall be electrically continuous and bonded to any grounding electrode as defined in the National Electrical Code, ANSI/NFPA 70.
(b) Gas piping shall not be used as a grounding electrode.
This language remained in effect for the 1992, 1996, and 1999 editions. In the 2002 edition the language was modified as follows:
(a) Each above ground portion of a gas piping system that is likely to become energized shall be electrically continuous and bonded to an effective ground-fault current path. Gas piping shall be considered to be bonded when it is connected to gas utilization equipment that is connected to the equipment grounding conductor for the circuit supplying that equipment.
(b) Gas piping shall not be used as a grounding conductor or electrode.
This is essentially the same language found in the 2006 edition although the term equipment has been replaced with the term “appliance”. Table 1 (NOT SHOWN) shows how bonding coverage (for gas piping) has varied between the NFGC and the NEC since the 1996 editions of these codes. The change made in 2002 to the bonding requirements has a significant impact on the sizing and installation of the bonding connection with the electrical system.
The NFGC is the lead code regarding the coverage for bonding of gas piping systems and its recommendations are sent to the appropriate NEC committees for consideration. Given the high impact of this issue, several proposals have been submitted to the NFGC to update the coverage for bonding of gas piping. Although proposals were submitted to require direct bonding of all gas piping materials, the Technical Committee discussed and accepted a modified proposal that limits the direct bonding of gas piping systems to CSST alone. The proposed language, which was accepted and is out for public review and comment, is as follows
7.13.1 Each aboveground portion of a gas piping system that is likely to become energized shall be electrically continuous and bonded to an effective ground-fault current path. Gas piping shall be considered to be bonded when it is connected to appliances that are connected to the appliance grounding conductor of the circuit supplying that appliance.
CSST gas piping systems shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system at the point where the gas service enters the building. The bonding jumper shall not be smaller than 6 AWG copper wire.
7.13.2 Gas piping shall not be used as a grounding conductor or electrode.
Add the following two new definitions:
Bonding Jumper: A reliable conductor to ensure the required electrical conductivity between metal parts required to be electrically connected. [NFPA 70]
Grounding Electrode: A device that establishes an electrical connection to the earth.
If the proposed change to the NFGC on CSST bonding is approved, there will be a significant difference between the 2009 NFGC and the 2008 NEC that will have to be addressed by the NEC committees when they consider changes for the 2011 edition.0 -
Oh yes might I add
an interesting read on code concerning lightening.
NFPA 780 Standard for the Installation of Lightening Protection Systems
You do not want to live near Orlando Florida just ask Mickey Mouse!0 -
Criminals:
I believe that they agree to check for certification certificates. They agree to this when they take on the line. You can't buy it at Lowes or HD.0 -
So your saying
They should be checking for re-certification?0 -
Certification.
It's like carding minors. You are supposed to card anyone you are suspicious of.
You can only legally install it if you are certified. That's the rule. You're not supposed to install it unless you are a licensed, trained and certified installer.
I've seen them check where I buy. What others do, I do not know.0 -
By the way codes
are not laws until a judge in a legal environment wants to make a particular portion of a code law for a particular legal case just for that case. This does not set precedent for later cases involving the same code..
In other words if you do not follow code not much can happen until someone wants to enforce the code. Then the local mechanical board may impose a fine. It is only when code is violated and death, injury or damage to personal property takes place then you can be found criminally negligent for your failure to follow the code.
That being said it is not up to local supply houses to monitor certification or for that matter licensing, it is only if they choose to do so.
I might add here in RI you must show certification to purchases CSST.0 -
Here in Mass
our codes are part of the general laws. 142 for plumbing I believe.Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
cell # 413-841-6726
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating0 -
Yes because the
code is CMR 248 a state code, which by the way I helped write as a member of the training group committee for the New England Gas Association (Gas Network Today) and established as law by the AHJ. That was many moons ago. Most national codes are not so unless deemed so. Point can the police arrest you for failing to install a back-flow preventer? Then once arrested can they lock you up awaiting trial?0 -
NO
We used Wardflex for a few years only where you could see it but have since gone back to wrought pipe. By the time you pay for the pipe, and have the electrician bond it to the panel, you can just as easy run black pipe. We just did a full gut job with 7 gas appliances all piped in black. I don't think it took significantly longer and the material cost was much less.0 -
NO
We used Wardflex for a few years only where you could see it but have since gone back to wrought pipe. By the time you pay for the pipe, and have the electrician bond it to the panel, you can just as easy run black pipe. We just did a full gut job with 7 gas appliances all piped in black. I don't think it took significantly longer and the material cost was much less.0 -
Black Steel Gas Pipe:
The steel gas pipe must still be bonded to the bonding/grounding system. It may be bonded on one end by the appliance bonding when it is electrically connected. But it still needs to be bonded at the source. It has always been this way.
It was the electricians that squawked the most about bonding CSST. I was in the supply house one day and it came up with "Ole Sparky". He was throwing an absolute fit about how he absolutely refused to bond CSST pipe because they didn't have a bonding clamp for it. I went out to my truck and got the latest info on the bonding that I got from the PHCC trade show from TracPipe. "Here, read this."
"Oh, I can do that."
You, by yourself, can run the black pipe by your self. I, by myself, will run the TracPipe CSST. The same house. By my self. I will beat you, hands down. CSST has really nice termination outlet fittings.0 -
Confusing Indeed
I have LPG, 25' buried 5/8" OD copper to regulator at the garage, then about 45' of Trac Pipe throught the garage in a bulkhead then 3/4" black pipe to my boiler. I called our local county electrical building inspector about this. I questioned about installing an additional ground rod at the garage entry point. He said that's a no-go since it may provide another path for lightning stike to use the CSST. I told hoim again I have 25' of buried copper. All he said I need to do is run a #6 copper wire from the black pipe in the mechaical room back to the service panel ground bar, which was what I already had. The boile is already grounded through the supply circuit. Is this good, right, safe, OK or just my county's code? Do the threaded joints on black pipe with pipe dope and or tape create any unusualy high resistance points? Thanks MIke0 -
You are all set
with the existing set up you have no need to add anything. The tape or pipe dope does not affect the resistance of the pipe in anyway at least not that you have to be concerned with. I am sure someone here will come up with some resistance criteria for pipe dope or tape as we have some very talented and smart people who post here.
The buried copper line from you first stage regulator to your second stage regulator on the house is okay.0 -
CSST
Here is a website for a free youtube recorder...http://www.applian.com/freecorder4/
After you download it you can go to youtube and search csst. There are dozens of newscast and pics of homes burning down from this tubing. After you download them you will have a excellent tool to show potential customers why you dont install csst and why they should choose you, even if you cost more.
I already sold one job with these videos.0 -
CSST Strengths/weaknesses:
Over on HVAC-talk.com, back a few years ago, on "The Wall Of Shame", there were some photos of a rooftop unit that hadn't been properly bolted to the roof top foundation. The unit had been blown off the foundation by high winds. The unit was laying on its side on the roof. The electrical connection was ripped off and apart. The refrigeration lines were ripped apart. The only thing that kept the unit from blowing and rolling off the roof was the CSST connection. Which didn't fail and break.0 -
This discussion has been closed.
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