Munchkin F16 code

GW

We got a F16 on a 2003 M80. Two years ago we had the same problem, and installed a new air switch, problem went away. Now it's back, the factory tech said try a new air switch, That was Friday and the boiler went out 3 times over the weekend.



The Ho is less than thrilled, as are we, any Munchkin wizards out there? Thanks for the help, Gary

GW

test

test

icesailor

Munchkin F16 Code:

Read my posting on another string about Munchkins on the wall yesterday'

Did you check the "Swirl Plate"?

When was the last time the boiler was cleaned and serviced? It is 8 years old. Has it ever been serviced?

Does it ever "moan" when it is running?

These Mod/Con boilers need annual servicing to keep them running right.

They also need to be combustion tested to make them run at peak efficiency.

GW

F16?

Yes, last year the boiler was cleaned out, new burner (warped a little), new burner gasket, F9 was the problem last year. The F16 isn't related to the swirl is it? I would think the swirl was more of an F( thing. Gary

icesailor

Munchkin:

Check it anyway. They cause all kinds of problems. As far as I know, they don't have an "F" code for a swirl plate.

What does the manual say an F16 code is?

GW

I meant F9, not F(

F16 is a fault that is related to the air pressure switch. The factory tech asked me (when i was there) if the fan was still running after the heat cycle was finisher (disconnected TT at the boiler).  I did not hear a thing- and he said i should replace the air switch. Now the F16 is back again. Today my guy called the factory and it seems like it now is looking like the control. Hoping to get this one behind us soon.





I must be mistaken, I thought the swirl plate was apart of the fan assy, and that the fan assy was one sealed unit.. Gary

icesailor

Swirl Plate:

Take the cover off and looking down, the gas valve and air pump will be on your left. The gas goes out to your right. Between the blower and the collector, notice that there is a white plastic spacer about 1/4" wide. That white thing is the swirl plate. What you see are vanes like the volute case on an injector water pump. The gas goes into the middle where it goes through a venturi nozzle that is part of the plate. Air is added to the gas and "swirls" and recirculates, mixing the air and gas. It is then supposed to go into the burner. I have been told that I am 100% wrong on this but it appears to me that there is flame damage to the swirl plate with burn evidence running from a passage to the other side of the plate and all the fins of the volute/plate are seriously worn. Take a flame mirror and look carefully at the white part you can see. The spot that is the worst is where you need a mirror to see. If the vanes are all worn, then you will see it. A symptom of a swirl plate problem is often a lot of restarts/recycling and it "moans" when running or before it shuts off.

There's another Munchkin string here in the last week. Look at that.

icesailor

Other Munchkin string on Wall:

The string is on the main Wall. It's called "Munchkin-T80 Problem. Here's a link.



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/135351/Munchkin-T80-problem

Tim McElwain

Did some checking with

HTP about "swirl plate" problems here is their comment:



I believe pre mature failure is due to two reasons:

 

The back draft of flue gases from venting system through heat exchanger and back out through swirl plate. The spent flue gases contain a great deal of corrosive condensate. The fix we used was to increase post purge on fan to clear all spent flue gases from venting system.

 

Another cause can be recirculation of flue gasses entering the cabinet and being drawn into swirl plate. Same material just from another direction.

 

About two years ago the manufacturer of the swirl plates changed what they are made of. They switched to Poly Propylene a more durable product that can also take higher temperatures. Swirl plates made of this newer material can be identified by the letters PP under the triangle on the back side of swirl plate.

Nat

Hope this helps

Tim is correct about the post purge cycle being increased from 15 seconds to 100. This helps prevent exaust from lingering and deteriorating the swirl plate.. Another issue on all modulating boilers is to make sure the exhaust is away from the intake. Concentric vents of stylish flat terminal kits will get you in trouble with regurgitation if the vent is behind bushes or in an area where the exhaust cannot disipate quickly, as they are running on low-fire most of the time... Everyone should be venting these units with this problem in mind... Munckins developed a bad reputation similar to Heatmakers in their early years... This was unfortunate as they were the first of it's kind and are vastly improved now and have the most choices available..   If you look at all the manufacturers units, they really are very similar in parts and how the mod-con technology works.... There are many little tricks to learn as they've been around now for a decade.... I'm impressed with HTP's improvement over time...    

GW

you gotta wonder

Wouldn't it be nice if there was some manual that was available to the technician with all these notes and things to look out for in the field? I think Buderus has done the best job with their manuals (although there is always the mysterious "European code" which isn't defined in the manual). Viessman stuff, I need to call the rep every time I do a Vitodens 200 because I keep on forgetting I am not supposed to go by the manual for the radiant controls ( I am so used to reading the instructions, silly me), and Munchkin is bringing up the rear with simple one line descriptions to their fault codes.



Maybe this question resembles such nonsense as wondering why the government can't balance the national debt.



Gary

GW

Post Purge

Tim, thanks for posting that, did the factory guy mention how this can be done to systems out in the field? 

Tim McElwain

What you are asking for

is just what I am doing. The Mod/Con Equipment Volume I has all the cute things you need to know when troubleshooting Munchkin and Triangle Tube in this Volume I. Volume II being proof read now covers the Weil McLain Ultra Series 1,2 and 3, should be out in print by June. Volume III which I am writing now will cover the Vitodens 200- WB2B. Lots of good info, by the way a lot of it taken from right here on HeatingHelp. I also have toured the factories and talked to the Gurus.



Good stuff!



My rule see a need write a manual, then teach a class, the rest is up to you.

GW

very cool

That's great Tim, I have been beat up by all these brands, knocked around pretty good I might add. Some of the resolutions are burned into my brain pretty good. 

Jr_12

No swirl plate

His unit shouldn't have a swirl plate. The Dungs valve wasn't introduced until 2005. I would say the problem lies in the blower or board.

GW

swirl

OK so swirl is on dungs and no swirl on hw?

Jr_12

Swirl

Yes Dungs has the swirl plate and Honeywell has the venturi cone. Dungs didn't come into play until early 2005.

-jr