Just Curious

Wendell

Why this bend?



Herbert

crash2009

I think thats called a swing joint.

 It has something to do with preventing the sections of the boiler from splitting apart when it gets hot.  Are you planning to re-pipe?  If so seriously consider the drop-header.  It makes the piping easier to put together, makes the steam dryer, amongst other things.

Wendell

That makes sense.

So, if the boiler has only one steam output it's not necessary.



Herbert

crash2009

I don't know all the reasons why its there Herbert

  Maybe you need it, even if there is only 1 output from the boiler.  What kind of boiler are you piping?

BobC

Stress

The swing joint also helps relieve expansion stress to the boiler sections that might result if the two boiler outputs were just piped together.



Bob

Jamie Hall

A swing joint

is a very good idea, even if you have only one output from the boiler, as it will protect both the boiler and the rest of your piping from expansion stress as things heat up and cool off.  It's so easy to do, why not do it?

Rod

A Dropheader Believer

I like using the double elbows (a la dropheader) on the riser(s) coming out of the boiler even whether it has single or multiple port setup. The two elbows make it more like a car universal joint and relieve stress in all directions either between boiler sections and /or the standing piping. Sure it costs a couple of elbows and nipples more but that it easily made up by the ease of putting the assembly together. Once you have done a header that way you won't go back.

- Rod

Wendell

Thanks to all...

Our 20 year old 4B has a crack above the water line. We're hoping it will hold up until spring (having to add 1/2 inch of water on a cold day).



We've tentatively selected the IN5 from the great advice in this thread.



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/135097/Boiler-Size



I'll have a pro install it, but I like to be prepared and educated.



I'm hoping the new boiler can be set up like the old one which runs solely on the powerpile (correct term?). It's nice to have heat when the electricity goes out.



Thanks again,

Herbert

crash2009

I was reading your last post

 Are you still thinking about installing the IN5 ?  Here is a video narrated by Dan Holohan.  This video has some great near boiler piping options that you may want to incorporate into your plan.  King valves sure make life easier, Just a $50 option.   http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/107/Steam-Heating/118/Steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping



You might want to get some suggestions on your existing piping, up near the ceiling, above the boiler.  Can you show us a couple pictures? 



The drop header will help to keep your steam dry.  I don't know about your boiler, but on some of them, the drop header is almost a necesity.  http://www.heatinghelp.com/search/results/drop-header/1

crash2009

double post

Wendell

Photos

Front and side.

Wendell

That is an informative video!

I downloaded the file and will show it to the installer. If he's too proud to watch it, then we'll find another guy

crash2009

Wow!

That is quite the collection of returns, I wish mine had been done like that.  You have just 1 riser out of the boiler.  Can you show us what that riser connects to?

Wendell

More Photos

The riser simply connects to a single 2 inch pipe that runs the length of the house (in the previous side-shot photo you can see the pipe in the upper right-hand corner of the photo). At the far end of the house, the pipe splits. One loop runs along the front of the house and the other loops around the rear. The photos show the split and where the loops end.

Rod

Boiler Piping

Your piping configuration on your present boiler is not correct by today's standards though I understand that was how some manufacturer's drawings had it in the past. I mention this as you don't what the installer to just duplicate the old installation.

The stress benefits of a dropheader have already been discussed. Other benefits are you can take your boiler exit risers as high as you want though the header pipe can remain low it that helps with the piping layout connection to the mains. The exit riser height in the manufacturer's installation diagram are minimums. I believe Dan in the video mentions to measure this height minimum from the top of the boiler rather than the waterline to give a bit more height. The header pipe should ideally be a pipe size larger than the exit risers. This slows the steam velocity down so that water droplets in the steam have a greater tendency to precipitate out. Also if there are multiple exit ports available in the boiler, you should use them as this also helps slow the steam velocity. Attached is a photo of a nice dropheader done by "Clammy", a steampro in northern New Jersey. Note the higher exit risers and larger header pipe. These contribute to making very dry steam which is more efficient than wet steam.

- Rod

crash2009

I get it now

You have 4 returns.  2 for the mains, and 2 from the radiators.  You have a 2 pipe steam system.  What program are you using for the 3-D arrows?

Steamhead

The near-boiler piping on that boiler

is definitely not what was specified for the Series 4. Whoever put it in must have used the instructions for a knee pad. It should have been installed like Clammy's Peerless.



It helps to make the horizontal portion of the header larger than specified, since that also helps dry out the steam. You can see Clammy went from 2" risers to a 2-1/2" header on his. This is true for any steam system, but especially since you probably have a Vapor system (post a few pics of radiators so we can be sure).



Also, make sure the installer uses a water feeder that has a built-in counter- the Hydrolevel VXT. This will show how much water is being fed to the system. In some areas, the water can be hard on steam boilers, so you don't want to be feeding much fresh water into your system. The counter keeps track of this and can tell you if there is a leak somewhere. And the VXT isn't much more expensive than a standard feeder.

Wendell

Arrows

I'm using Adobe Photoshop Elements 3 on a Mac. I use it ever day when I make my Daily Progress post on The Building of Helge. I had a hull welded up for me and I've been outfitting the interior and systems myself.



Herbert (aka wendell)

Wendell

Thanks, Steamhead

In a previous post you confirmed that I have a vapor Moline system. All it's components have been removed except the radiators. My previous account became crossed coupled with another blokes account. I informed HeatingHelp weeks ago, but they didn't do or couldn't do anything about it. I simply deleted the old user and created a new one.



Herbert (aka wendell)

Steamhead

I remember now

and that system will positively purr when it's de-knuckleheaded.



Have you looked at the Slant/Fin Intrepid, or Smith G-8 series with gas burners? They offer better thermal efficiency than the Independence series. Unfortunately, Burnham hasn't approved its excellent MegaSteam for gas operation (yet?)

Wendell

Powerpile

Do any of them run on a powerpile alone? I love that the old boiler runs when the electricity is out.

Steamhead

Nope

and neither will the Independence. Powerpiles have fallen out of favor since you can't run a stack damper off them, and an atmospheric boiler's efficiency suffers even more with a wide-open flue on the off cycle. A wet-base, power-burner unit is not nearly so wide open. 

Wendell

Too bad.

So, even though this unit has a standing pilot it can't be run independently?

Steamhead

That's correct

it uses a 24-volt control system. That's needed to operate the stack damper.

Wendell

Interesting.

One could simply run the boiler off two 12 volt batteries that are kept up via house voltage. When the power goes out the batteries would last a while, I would imagine. How many amps do these systems typically draw at 24 volts?

Steamhead

You'd also need an inverter

to change DC into AC. And some inverters don't produce clean power, which gives electronic controls a belly-ache. 

Wendell

Opps.

I assumed it was direct current.



So, a battery bank with a true sine wave inverter, putting out house current, could power the boiler... nothing to modify.



EXELTECH makes redundant inverters that produce true sine waves.



I will miss how simple the old battle-axe is, though. Just a boiler, a mercury thermostat, and a gas supply.