No heat in zone one

fix_it_myself

Hello,  I woke up yesterday morning to no heat on the first level of my home but the second level is fine.  

Any help or suggestions would be great.  I am very hands on and would hate to have to pay someone double for something that I could do on my own.

Here are the details: 

two zones- forced baseboard heat

two Taco thermostats

one Grundfos zone circulator/pump

two Taco circulator valves

The thermostat does not make the "tick" noise when set above the current temp but there is a spark when contact is made.

I bypassed the thermostat by connecting the two wires coming out of the wall directly without any luck.

The pipe coming from the circulator is only hot going up to the second zone and is not getting hot before or after zone one.  I turned the heat off for the second zone and the heat all the way up for the first zone with no difference.

I switched the zone valve for level one to manual from auto- no change.

I then completely switched the zone valves- placed zone valve from zone one to zone two and zone two to zone one.  Zone two continued to work and there was no change in zone one.

Thank you in advance.

Also, the pressure is 20psi with a temp of 200

Charlie from wmass

Could be the zone valve

many zone valves can be opened manually to allow for temporary heat. Check that first. It will buy some time to get it fixed. New zone valves head if the existing is not working now. Could be an air bubble in the zone? Has anything been changed as of late?

fix_it_myself

response

Hello,  I already switched the zone valve to manual and even switched it with the other zone valve from the zone that works and neither change did anything.  Thanks

Oh, and nothing has been changed.  The house is five years old.  Just woke up to a cold first floor.

STEVE PAUL_3

You did everything

That you could. Good trouble shooting. If you switched the zone valve heads and still had no heat in the 1st zone, I would bet a tidy sum that the 1st zone piping is frozen at some point.

If you can trace the piping, try to find a section that feels "Painfully Cold to the touch".

you may be able to defrost with a hair dryer, starting at the upstream side and working your way downstream.

Good luck

fix_it_myself

One more

Thank you, I will check that out.  Just one follow up question for you- are there any pipes other than the one that comes directly from the circulator to the zone valves to the plastic tube that enters the house to look at?  I can see the tube entering the floor from the burner and the pipe does not get hot between the zone valve and the circulator.

Charlie from wmass

Try and trace the down stairs loop.

It may run past a cold drafty spot. The pipe must come back to the boiler can you find that pipe?

fix_it_myself

okay

Okay, that makes sense now, didnt think about it that way....

fix_it_myself

also

Also, there are two "spouts" in the same area between the zone valves and the bottom of the circulator.  The bottom one spits out hot water, the one before the pipe splits to the two zones but after the circulator does nothing.  Is it supposed to be kicking out water too?

fix_it_myself

back to the drawing board

We had a kerosene and propane heater set up in the garage under the first level, it got to be at least mid 80's without any results.

Dan Joyce_2

No heat un zone one

From the advice you have received and all you have done it appears everything in boiler room is working and your 1st level is frozen.

Is it cold enough were you live to freeze pipes? Why are you heating the garage if the pipes above it are working?

Remember heating loop is one circle, out of the boiler and back. I guess your 1st level is on a slab, as in a raised ranch. As sugested, follow the pipe and try to find a cold spot. If they drop down to go from room to room remember your only about an 1,1/2" from the outside wall.

Are there any air vents on baseboard that you can open?

Dan

fix_it_myself

response

Hi Dan,

I have a 5 year old colonial with a half basement.  The other half is a two car garage.  Most of the baseboard heaters are located at the end of the house on the garage side and it is the first floor that stopped working.  I am in Massachusetts where the temps havent been this low for around 6 years (from what I hear).  I am unable to follow the pipes all the way due to the garage and its ceiling.  The only other option is seems is to start making access holes in the garage to try to find the culprit unless any other options come about.  Also, I havent located any vents on the baseboards. Thanks.

Dan Joyce_2

no heat in one zone

I think your right. Start behind garage door, that's probably has the most air leakage. Floor joist probably runs parallel to door,put your saw next to floor joist and cut across. You can add a "cat" latter to re install sheet rock or something better.Bet you find a terrible insulation job in ceiling.

Remember if that's one loop and you have a frozen burst pipe your going to have a major leak. So be prepared to shut that zone down till you can fix leak or leaks.

Good Luck

Dan

icesailor

No heat:

I fix a lot of frozen, broken pipes.

I would not ever do what you are planning to do unless the pipes have broken and the water is flowing. It is highly likely from my experience, that the pipe has not yet broken, If it hasn't, you will have a lot of wasted holes to repair.

If the zone is isolated with valves, turn off the zone. Put heat in the garage and crank it up. Close the garage door and get it as hot as you can. Open the valves occasionally and if water doesn't start leaking, start the circulator. If the return comes back so cold that it hurts your hand, you have it. If nothing moves, close the valves for a few more hours. It will come.

I just went on a call where the whole place was frozen up with broken pipes, According to the folks in charge. All the pipes are heat taped and insulated. I put my air compressor to it and nothing leaked but an area was frozen and blocked. I left it drained but pressurized overnight with a faucet open. This morning, I went there and there was no pressure. I closed the faucet, charged up the system and no leaks. I could have spent hours looking for a leak that wasn't there.

Do what you want but I never cut holes in walls and ceilings unless I KNOW that there is a leak there.

billtwocase

gotta agree with Ice

and consider non toxic antifreeze. It can happen again easily. Garage door gets left open in the winter, heat not calling, and there ya go. I would also not rip open the ceilings and walls unless you see water coming out of them. I would also follow the baseboard and piping for that zone as it goes above the garage. Chances are that all piping can be within the rooms, and doesn't connect the baseboards by weaving up and down the floors. Some smart builders will use a continuous loop to connect them without placing the pipe in harms way.

fix_it_myself

Thank you

Hello everyone and thank you for your advice.  (by the way, the heater pipes that run through the walls from baseboard to baseboard are not the copper ones but plastic).  We did have multiple heaters running in the closed up garage over night Monday and that didnt help, even though it got to be almost 90 in there. 

Last night we made one small opening in the ceiling at the front corner of the garage and immediately found the frozen culprit.  With all the other problems that we had with our builder, they didnt bother to put insulation in the area (and who knows where else).   Once the space was open and the heat was able to enter the open space everything started working again.  We are going to have a alcohol based anti freeze run into the lines to keep it from happening again when the temps go into the negatives in the future.

Thanks again!

Jean-David Beyer

Alcohol for anti-freeze?

Is that a good idea? Why not use something designed for the job, such as propylene glycol? Is alcohol not more likely to leak, or evaporate and get removed by the air eliminator(s)? I am  not a professional, so I do not know the answer to these questions.

Tim McElwain

Fix it myself you should get in touch

with the manufacturer of you boiler to determine what anti-freeze to use. We never however use automotive anti-freeze with boilers. Propylene Glycol is typically used and some boilers may require an additional additive when placing the Anti-freeze in the boiler.

fix_it_myself

propylene glycol

that is actually what we are using, which is used as an "anti-freeze" solution and is considered an alcohol.  (i just couldnt remember the name of it before).

fix_it_myself

anti freeze

Thank you, we actually have an HVAC family friend involved in this now that will be taking care of it.

icesailor

No Heat/Anti-Freeze:

If you can avoid it, do not put Anti-Freeze in your heating system. It had many drawbacks. If you have an insulation problem in your garage, it is cheaper to fix the freezing problem rather than adding anti-freeze. Any time someone needs to work on the system, they need to capture and save the solution and pump it back in. If you have a leak that doesn't show or leak, it will as soon as you put the Anti-Freeze to it. It doesn't transfer heat as well and it makes the circulator pump work harder to move the fluid.

In Massachusetts, you must have an insulation inspection before the walls are covered. How come your insulation contractor didn't insulate the area? I would be asking them. If I did this, I would expect to be contacted. I HATE explaining myself when I am wrong.