Steam a "Dying Art"?

JohnLaPlante

Hi all, first post.  Glad to be here!



We live in a 3,800 sq ft 1837 Victorian home in Youngstown, Ohio.  We bought the house about 7 years ago.  It is mostly heated by a large steam boiler with 13 steam radiators.  There is a small room over the garage (300 sq ft) that is heated by electric baseboard.  Also, there is an electric strip heater in an air handler that provides some heat to the kitchen area which was remodeled about 15 years ago. 



We are starting a kitchen remodel, and are looking at doing something with that small electric strip heater.  I really don't know why it was installed instead of just putting a few steam radiators in the kitchen area.



So I had a heating contractor out yesterday, and they told me that my best option was to convert everything to hot water.  We mentioned that we would like to explore getting radiant floor heat in the new kitchen remodel, and that's where the conversion to hot water came in.  They looked at our radiators and apparently they are OK to use water with them (vents, drains, push rods).



They also thought that the reason no steam radiators were put in was because steam is a "dying art".  We love the steam heat (but not necessarily the gas bills that go along with it).



So my question to you all...is steam really a dying art? 



Also, I have 13 steam radiators...what's the best way to calculate the size of boiler required to service them?  I have a feeling that ours is oversized...the reason is that as I have been typing, I've heard it kick on and off 2 times.  It comes on, boils the water , fills the steam piping with steam, then cuts off on high pressure (5.5psi).  The pressure dies down below 1, and it kicks on again.  This can't be good for the boiler (I think a 1987 Weil EGH-85 series 350K BTU model). 



Interested in any advice or thoughts you might have!



Thanks,



John

BobC

Pressure too high!

It is not easy to find good steam men anymore and that is why this board exists. People have realized they have to become knowledgeable so they can tell the plumbers what has to be done if they don't understand steam systems.



Converting a steam system to hot water can be an expensive proposition because steam works at 1-1/2 PSI and forced hot water runs 10X that. You might find some areas that don't like that pressure after 80 or 90 years of low pressure. If you do convert, be prepared to remove all the radiators and piping so you can install everything new.



You said the boiler was running at 5.5 PSI that is MUCH too high, it should be 1.5PSI. All steam systems have air vents and some have steam traps (2 pipe); these do not work at anything over 2-3PSI and that makes your gas company very happy because they get to sell you a lot of fuel. Turn that pressuretrol down (0.5 on the front tab and 1 on the dial inside the front cover). Post some pictures of the boiler and the piping around it from a few different angles, also a picture of your pressure gauge and pressuretrol.



A steam boiler is sized to supply the connected load (EDR). The boiler has a plate on it that tells you how many BTU's and how many square feet of steam it can supply at a given fuel rate. The boiler sq ft should be 15-20% higher than the sq ft of radiation you have attached. Any take offs for domestic hot water have to be considered as well as if the piping in the basement is insulated, etc.



You can figure out what each radiators sq ft by printing and filling out this chart. http://www.usboiler.burnham.com/contractors/tool-box-sizing just figure out what kind of radiators you have and then how many columns they have. The chart will tell you how many sq ft each section of a radiator has according to it's height. Then count the number of sections (rows of 2 or 3 columns) and multiply that by the sq footage per section to arrive at the square footage of that radiator.



A properly configured steam system can be very efficient. If your going to live with steam heat you have to understand it, you can buy a copy of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" under the shop banner of this site. That book will give you a better understanding of steam heat than most service people. It's well written and has a huge amount of information in it. It will pay for itself 10X over.



Bob

Patrick_North

Alive and Well

You will likely spend more to convert to hot water than you will ever save as a result, at least compared with optimizing your current system. According to the US Dept. of Energy, coverting from steam to hot water is "probably not worth it."

Plenty of knowledgable folks on this board- you're in good hands! I'm sure others will chime in, soon. I've learned a lot and saved a lot more in heating OUR big ol' Victorian thanks to what I've learned here.

Step #1: Educate yourself. A few excelent books available through this site the (now ironically titled) "Lost Art of Steam Heating" "We Got Steam Heat" and the (new) "Greening Steam" will pay for themselves many times over.

Step #2: Read!

I'm sure one of the first things you'll find is that 5.5PSI is way too high an operating pressure- your system is meant to hum along at no more than 2#, and possibly just a few ounces.

This is easy and interesting reading and will clarify the questions you didn't know you should be asking.

Don't feel overwhelmed! Steam is quite elegant in its simplicity once you get the basics.

Good luck!

Patrick

Jamie Hall

Hardly...

a dying art!  There are a ot of good folks out there who can do steam, and the Wall stands by 24/7 to help them -- and you, the homeowner -- get the most out of your system.



BobC has given you an excellent reference on figuring radiator size, which is the first step in figuring boiler size.



Do get that pressure dialed down as soon as possible -- that's costing you money.



There is no good reason why you can't run a radiant floor loop off a steam boiler, leaving steam everywhere else.  There are several different ways to do this, and they all work.  The only concern at all is to make sure that the boiler is big enough to handle the extra load of the radiant loop.  You could also convert that room over the garage to either hydronic or, if you got a good contractor, steam for that matter.  Save yourself some coin that way, too.



A steam heating system, in good running order, is no more expensive to run than any other system using the same fuel.  And, since you already have it, and it's working (though perhaps not as well as it can), you are much better off getting it really right than converting.

Dave in QCA

EDR Ratings

Bob, just a point of correction.  The EDR rating on the boiler is exactly the size of connected EDR that the boiler can heat.  This assumes that the mains in the basement are insulated and that there is not additional load, like a hot water coil.  The piping and pickup factor of 1.34 are already included in the boiler EDR rating.  This is always confusing.

JohnLaPlante

@Bob - Thanks!!

@Bob - Thank you!  I will purchase the "Lost Art of Steam Heating" today, and I'll download and fill out that chart.  Will post pictures of our system later today.



Is is normal for the boiler to come on, kick up the pressure to say 2.5#, and then cutoff until the steam pressure dies back down?  Or should it just produce enough steam to keep the radiators filled constantly?  That's why I think something's not balanced correctly.  The HVAC contractor who was out just cranked up the pressure switch to keep the boiler on longer, but really didn't seem to understand the issues.

JohnLaPlante

Thank You!

Patrick, thanks.  I guess I should have titled my thread "Lost Art"   I will pick up those books. 



I really do like our steam heat...I just need to find someone to help get the system balanced correctly.

BobC

Your right

Your absolutely right about that, I remember Dan's article from a couple of years back where he argued for matching the load as close as possible to the boilers rating.



My only concern in the Boston area is the gas companies habit of mixing air into the gas lines to keep the pressure up in really cold weather. Some of my neighbors have complained about low heat and the flames not being blue during really cold weather. I'm still on oil so it doesn't bother me until they fill the damn tank! Does anybody know if there is a limit to the amount of air they can mix in.



time to go out and shovel,



Bob

JohnLaPlante

Jamie - Thank You!

Jamie, thanks...I really appreciate it.



Any links to anywhere showing how to add a radiant loop off a steam system?  Will one of the books (The Lost Art...) show examples of something like this? 



I'm really kinda getting excited about making the most of our steam system...that $20K bill for converting to water just wasn't too exciting...

Dave in QCA

Dying Art? No, just less knowledge.

It is always interesting, that when people as asked a question about something that they know little about, they will attempt to change the conversation to something of which they are more knowledgeable.  I suppose this is just human nature.



Your heating contractor might have been more precise to say, "steam heat is a dying art in our shop.  We don't have anybody who understands it anymore."  But no one wants to admit to ignorance.



I have personally seen 2 systems that were converted from steam to hot water, and the projects were incredibly expensive, provided poor heating, and no savings. You will be wise to keep your steam heat, and it sounds like there is certainly opportunity to tune your system up.  First thing... turn down your pressuretrol!  You indicate a condition of short cycling.  Does this happen every time the boiler runs, or just when recovering from a set back condition.  It is pretty normal if at the end of a set back.  If it happens every time the boiler operates, then the boiler may be way over-sized, or there may be other issues that can be dealt with.  At any rate, the short cycling does not harm the boiler, and it is certainly less wasteful and harmful to all components of your system than running the pressure too high.



I advise planning for some steam radiation in your kitchen remodel.  You will not be able to do a radiant floor with steam.  It might be possible to take a hot water loop from the boiler and temper it down, but that all gets complicated.  Finding a proper sized cast iron radiator and fitting it in to your kitchen design will produce the best results.  If your boiler is over sized, is it possible that there were radiator(s) in the kitchen, that were removed 15 years ago at the previous remodel? Take a look in your basement for lines that have been capped off, and round holes for steam pipes in the kitchen sub floor. Kitchen design for many years has been based on a continuous line of base cabinets and counter tops.  Anything that might interrupt that continuous row was removed or altered - windows, radiators, doors, etc.  Kitchen design lately has become much more flexible.  The various old house magazines often show kitchen projects that work with the old house instead of against it.



Attached are 3 pictures of one kitchen project that worked with the house.  It was moderately priced.  The kitchen had 2 windows, 4 doors, and a radiator.  The adjacent butlers pantry provides additional storage, clean up space, and overflow prep space.



My apologies to the wall for digressing off topic, but this is in the interest of steam heat and helping the JohnLaPlante with his steam heating system.

BobC

Boiler cycling

A steam boiler will cycle on pressure until the thermostat is satisfied. If the system is sized just right it will run almost 100% of the time on a design day (Zero F in my case) because the radiators will condense the steam as fast as the boiler can make it.



My system usually fires initially for about 14 minutes before cutting out at 12 oz of pressure. It then cuts back in at 4 oz and that continues (60 sec on and 90-120 sec off) till the thermostat is satisfied. My boiler is oversized but I'll live with it till it's time to replace that 15 year old V75 because the fuesl savings would take a very long time to pay for the replacement costs.



Bob

Dave in QCA

Billing adjusted

Bob, I did not know that the utilities added air to gas.  But, I do know that the billing is adjusted for the BTU content of a ccf of gas, so you are paying for the heat delivered, not the gas.  As for how that might affect the capacity of a steam boiler, I have never seen the adjustment be more than 1-2%.  Others on the wall may be more knowledgeable on this subject than me.

Steamhead

John, here's a place to start

Gerry Gill. He's located in Bedford, near Cleveland, and is one of the best steam men I know. Not sure if he'd come as far as Youngstown but it can't hurt to ask.



http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/88/G-W-Gill-Plumbing-Heating

JohnLaPlante

OK...

Bob, OK.



The problem my system had is that it would get to 2# of pressure in just a few minutes and cut out for a few minutes while the pressure dropped down below the setpoint.  So I had the HVAC guy out to explain this issue, and his answer was to just crank up the pressure setpoint.  From what I'm hearing from you guys, that wasn't the right way to go.  Maybe it was OK all along!  Thoughts?



So I think I'm going to dial the pressure switch back down to 2#.  But I think this will cause the system to not stay on very long.  Could there be blockage in the piping which is causing the pressure to rise so rapidly?

Jean-David Beyer

mixing air into the gas lines to keep the pressure up

I am not a professional, but it seems to me that adding air to the gas is a very dangerous thing to do. If there is pure gas in the lines, it would be difficult to support combustion in the gas lines, and I would think you would want it to be as difficult as possible.



I remember in college when some expletives connected the compressed air line to the gas line to be funny. The easy symptom was that we could not get Bunsen burners to stay lit. But someone managed to get a fire going in the supply line for a bit. This was about 50 years ago and I am a bit hazy as to the details.



It was my understanding that gas companies mixed propane into the gas lines if they did not have enough natural gas. I guess they could put ethane in as well, since natural gas is mostly methane. But putting air in is as much a cheat as putting ethanol in gasoline, so I hope they adjust the billing when they do that.

JohnLaPlante

Dave - Thank You

Dave, thanks so much!



The short cycling happens every time the boiler comes on.  It will come up to pressure rather quickly, but then trip on high pressure.  Once the pressure subsides, it will kick back on again.  After reading a few things on this board, I think the boiler might be way oversized.  It is an EGH-85, with 350,000 BTU.  I haven't run through the calculations yet, but on most online bolier shops this level of boiler is in the "commercial" category.  Places like PEX Supply only go up to something like 150,000 BTUs.  We'll see how my calculations come out tonight. 



That kitchen is beautiful...gives me hope!!

JohnLaPlante

Thanks!

Thanks for the link.  I'm going to give him a call and see if he knows anyone in this area or if he would be willing to make a trip down.

JohnLaPlante

Thank You!

Jamie, thanks so much.  This place is great!!

Rod

Contact Gerry Gill!

Hi John- I second Steamhead's remarks. Get hold of Gerry Gill! If you were making a list of the top steam pros in the USA his name would be close the beginning of the list (as would be Steamhead's, who is a Baltimore steam pro)! Be sure to visit his website as he has a lot of the work he's done posted there plus a lot of good info on steam heating.

http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/

- Rod

Steve_175

Blockage

Your Q of 'Blockage' is something that is discussed here often. The name of the game is lots of venting on your mains. Post some pics of your boiler and main vents. Gill explains the venting issue very well here.



http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=415

BobC

A taste

John,



This article will give you a small taste of what your new book will be like - http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/236/Homeowners/1486/Steam-Heating-Dos-and-Donts



If you can figure out what your problems are someone on this board will come up with an answer. There is more accumulated steam  knowledge here than anyplace else i know of.



BTW I just shoveled 8" of snow but the good news is it was nice light snow, nothing like the 10-12' of cement we got last week. Temps are supposed to be near zero by Sunday night so the dragon will be busy.



Bob

nicholas bonham-carter

dying art revived

in your list of things to do to get your system back in its as new condition, put on a good low-pressure gauge [gaugestore.com 0-3 psi].

when installed on the pressuretrol pigtail, the pressure you see during various stages of operation will enable you to diagnose problems, such as lack of adequate venting.

sooner or later you will probably need a vaporstat, for more precise pressure control, so why not sooner rather than later?

we will enjoy your pictures of the boiler, and its piping, and the house if you can manage it!

in a similar situation, though with the added complexity of boiler replacement, our fuel use went down by a third, and you will notice a big difference after correcting any problems this site will help you identify.--nbc