icesailor,ME,and other heating pros

jonny88

do you guys concentrate on heating alone,my question is,is because in nyc every plumber also does heating.after getting some knowledge from you guys and dans books i have found out that the two licensed plumbers i work for really dont have the knowledge that you seem to have.do you think it should be two different trades,or stricter codes when it comes to heating.

CMadatMe

Should Require

I believe there should be a seperate license. Westchester requires you to take bother exams if you want to do both plumbing and heating.

EricAune

The same but different

Here in Minnesota we do not have a state issued license for HVAC.  Hydronics are installed by contractors who carry a (necessary) mechanical bond.  Unfortunately the requirements to obtain that bond are not based on knowledge or experience but rather the ability to properly file the paperwork and pay the fee for such.



The area we call the "Twin Cities", Minneapolis & St. Paul, do however require separate licensing for hot water and steam installation and service.  Incidentally, there are only a few other cities that require a contractor to carry a municipal certification (competency card) issued by either Minneapolis or St. Paul.  The majority of the state only requires the bonding be in place.



I am a master plumber, I am self employed and concentrate the majority of my skills on hot water heating of various forms.  I would like to see statewide licensing for HVAC and hydronics for various reasons.  Labor rate standards, skill/experience standards are two solid reasons to demand such a license form both sides of the isle.



The most pressing issue for me on this matter is the fact that most heating only guys have no real understanding of state issued code regarding potable water and their relationship to domestic water heating.  However (mis)understood, the codes are enacted for the safety of the public and there is a great MISunderstanding of the rules for heat exchangers, appliances and safety measures as pertained to domestic potable water.



Enforcement understanding is a whole other issue.



Sorry fo such a long winded reply.  My two cents.

Mark Eatherton

The similarities of Hydronics and Plumbing...

is that soldering skills are a must. Period. The similarities stop there.



From there forward, just because a person knows how to solder does not mean he understands the workings of hydronics. Plumbers have 70 PSI of driving force to get water from point A to point B.



Hydronic heating contractors depend on small pressure differential machines (a.k.a. circulators or pumps) which typically only generate pressure in the 10 PSI range to move the water through the systems.



I've always said that hydronics (and HVAC in general) needs to be a separate license and that the contractors should be required to show proof of ongoing and updated education as it pertains to their specific trade, with a required focus on Carbon Monoxide detection, prevention and elimination.



Hydronics is an art, tempered by skill, and just because a person can solder does not necessarily mean they know how to properly apply hydronics.



It should be separately licensed.



Thanks for reading and learning. It's a never ending process.



ME

icesailor

P&H:

I once heard a comment somewhere. Take it as a generality.

Plumbers make good heaters but heaters don't make good plumbers. OF COURSE there are exceptions. In Massachusetts, plumbers MUST take 100 hours per year of applied plumbing theory from a certified by the Dept. of Education. When I started plumbing, there was no such requirement. The failure rate for a journeymans license was around 40%. Smart guys went to classes. In our/my case, we hired someone to come on Sundays and teach us what was expected on the test. The State Board realized that those that were educated or those that went to the Voc/Trade schools almost always passed on the first try. So, they required us to do 100 hours for Journeyman and 100 hours for Master. Then they went to 300 hours for three years. What I learned in those classes, I carry with me every day. And I use it every day. There are no educational requirements for heaters.

When I started, Plumbers were heaters. We all did both. Some did more than others. When electric heat came in, the heating end of the business went away. It has come back but you need to compete against scorched air. Back when, we also did scorched air. It was usually considered a cheap job. It always had metal duct with a separate supply and return main trunk with a supply and return in every room. Now, it is duct board with flex duct supply to each room and one big return in the front hall over the furnace. The rodents love it. It gives them access to the whole structure. A dead rodent in duct work will clear your sinus's and empty your stomach. The bottom of the doors are so close to the floor that if you close the door to ajar, the suction will suck the door closed. Now I see someone ripping out insulated duct board and installing stock metal duct and wrapping it with R-10 bubble wrap. I had a customer that bought a house that was HVAC by an old timer that made all his metal duct and insulated the inside with 1" duct insulation. And it didn't sweat. This same person came in and ripped out all this custom made insulated duct work and replaced it with stock made up metal duct, wrapped with R-10 bubble wrap. The stuff that comes in a roll and is about a quarter inch thick. The same stuff you can't use in Canada.

Many companies don't like to mix up their crews. They don't like the heaters doing plumbing and they don't like the plumbers doing heating.

I may be wrong, but in New York, they don't really have Journeymen Licenses for plumbers like we do in Massachusetts. And in MA, a Master's license is another plumbing test. More advanced and more education. In New York, I understood that you must take an exam to get a Master Plumbers License. That gives you the right to appoint Journeymen that work for you. And hire as many plumbers and laborers as you want.

In Ma., A MP can only hire one apprentice. NOT A LABORER. A laborer is considered an apprentice. He must be directly supervised by a licensed plumber. A MP can hire a Journeyman and an apprentice for that journeyman. If you do heat, you must be sure to keep them separate.

What makes someone good or better is what they are exposed to and what they are willing to learn.  It's how you correlate the two trades. They are entwined if you look. For example, vacuum relief valves on water heaters. If you are on municipal water, and there is a fire, and a pump truck hooks on to a hydrant, and the pump guy gets excited, he can pull a serious vacuum on the water system. A vacuum can collapse the water tank. The vacuum relief valve lets air in the tank, relieving the vacuum. The vacuum will also lower the boiling point of the water allowing the hot water in the tank to flash to steam. This is the same principal that vapor/vacuum steam systems work under. See how they are connected?  In the questions area on this board, there is a really cool explanation on how vapor/vacuum steam systems with vacuum pumps work in tall buildings like the Empire State building. Really cool. There's plumbing theory there. Like well pumps.

You may meet guys, plumbers that do heat. They may seem to not be with it. But they know something. That something is worth knowing. Ask. If they won't tell, too bad. That's their insecurity. Everyone that I have ever met had something useful for me to learn. I've asked people I thought could help me and they couldn't. But they gave me information about something else that I wanted to know about. What you know is what you are willing to find out and learn.

There is a great saying for those who think they can take all their money with them. "The Brinks Truck Doesn't Follow The Hearse".

For those that won't share their knowledge I say: "The School House Doesn't Follow The Hearse".

Keep Asking.  And sorry for the Sunday morning rant.

jonny88

i cant agree more.

it was a post a few weeks ago mark that brought my attention to this about carbon monoxide detection.we rely on the spill switch on the boiler and that is about as far as it goes.our pipe work always looks good but the knowledge especially with the modcon boilers is not there for us.as a plumber for 10 years i thought i had a pretty good take on heating until i stumbled across you guys.i have found a school close by that has night courses which i intend on taking.thankyou for all the knowledge that you share with us.if you ever need to set a toilet bowl just ask and i can give you a few tips,ha ha

CMadatMe

I Wish it Would

Go a even a step further. I feel that anyone that replaces an existing piece of heating equipment or installs new MUST have to pull a permit and supply the bldg dept with the heat loss and if necessary a radiant design.



The building departments job is to protect the saftey of the citizens of their community and I feel that goes towards consumer protection also. There is a town here in Orange County New York that effective Jan 1 the local ordinance states you cannot install a replacement or new heating source that is anything less than 85% AFUE and you must provide them a heat loss. Atleast one community is heading in the right direction.

icesailor

Heresy:

Geez Chris,

Your talkin' Heresy. More Government intrusion in our lives? That's not going to fly. In a "free market" market place, the person who can do it the cheapest is always the best and smartest. We see it all the time. It what keeps some of us in food and gas.

My only personal problem with that concept of regulating the efficiency of equipment is when someone just holding on or an old person has a heating equipment failure and they can't afford $5000.00+ for a new boiler, let alone some high end unit. They get forced out of their house, someone picks it up on the cheap, gets a cheap boiler from HD and gets Johnny Handy to put it in on the side. No permits, no inspections, What code? More burden on us, no burden on Johnny Handy. And the former resident is either living on the street or living in subsidized housing. The new owner gets a tax credit ( we pay for that), the house is sold at a huge profit to a "1%'er" to go in their portfolio with an investment tax credit with deferred payment for 15 years.

Go to HD in the city. Like the Grand Poo-Baah of HD's in MA, the one in South Boston, beside Rt 93. You must be multi-lingual to work there. It's open 24 hours a day. You see guys speaking languages you have never heard, in there at all hours buying all kinds of plumbing and heating stuff to convert their three deckers in S. Boston and Dorchester into 6 and 8 family units. All approved of course. By the owner. But not by Boston Inspectional Services. That's all well and good.

Them Im'grints keep the cash flowing and make us all safe.

Jamie Hall

Not a pro...

just a humble (?) building superintendent.  I'd love to see a separate license -- or at least an add on certificate? -- for hydronics and steam.  There is one master plumber in my area who does know hydronics, and does an excellent job.  There are a slew of others who advertise but... oh my word...

TonyS

This may be true Mark

But what do warm air systems and ductwork have to do with hydronics, this is debatable but probably less than plumbing. Many electricians  are now in the A/C field! And I have seen more than one A/C mechanic try his hand at ammonia units. What about the Triathlon and the hybrid units...this doesn't stop Hydronic mechanics from giving small engine repair a whirl! Steam and water have about 2 things in common..water and pipe.

I have two new things in my life right now..my new wood burning stove and a new metal lathe, and though I can draw from my other experiences, both require study and practice to perfect. I dont think more regulation is needed, I for one do not think we need more laws and rules, what we need is more educated consumers.

Its to bad heating work isnt more self regulating like flying where as if you screw it up you dont get a second chance.

icesailor

Heating Pro's:



That's a bad analogy. Ask the people on the ground in Buffalo New York when those two pilots let their aircraft ice up and fall out of the sky and land on a house. killing an occupant and all 44 aboard the plane. You can't pick and choose your problems. It all depends on who's Ox is being gored.

If you need a job to keep busy, and you and four other guys bid on the job, and we aren't discussing pricing here, but, you and two others are between $9800.00 and $10,100.00. You being the one at $9800.00. You know the materials will COST you $6000.00. The rest is profit and material. The fifth bidder is $5000.00. He has no insurance, no shop, employees on the cash and pay when they have the money, and the owner hires the low price. There isn't a way in the world the guy can do the job, let alone finish it. But the owner thinks he almost got screwed by four crooks that were trying to rip him off of $5000.00. We get bad mouthed for being crooks. The crook gets elevated to hero status. Until he doesn't finish the job and you or I get called in to salvage the mess.

Ever watch that show on the HGTV channel, "Holmes on Homes"? That's what is out there my friend. You and I can make a good living like Mike Holmes does, just going around fixing other peoples screw ups. And Canada has strict licensing laws.

You need a license to drive a car. You need a license to fly a plane. To protect the public. We are the public. Who protects us? Who protects "them"?

We do.

meplumber

Separate license in Maine.

In Maine, the we are licensed by a separate board for Plumbing and Heating Fuels.



I carry a Master Plumbers license, also a Master Oil License for 1 & 2 oils up to 15 gph and Master Solid Fuel license, and also a Gas license with different endorsements.  I also do A/C, however we have no state license, just the EPA certification for refrigerants.  Heating is my strong suit, but the plumbing and A/C allow me to provide a package to the customer, and fill in the down time in the summer.



To answer the question, as Mark stated, the similarities in the skills required to install plumbing and heating lead to the marriage of the two.  The desire to be a true pro requires you to work at the trade, go to class, listen and learn.  I have found that when I started in the trade all I needed were hand tools and a strong back.  Now a journeyman tech needs to understand such a wide range of controls and combustion that it is no longer a strong back and weak mind trade.

TonyS

You believe driving

licenses are there to protect you. Wow are you sorely misguided! My analogy to aircraft was meant to show a profession that has many regulations and little more than self enforcement. Of course you can point to a particular accident and say OH MY. Accidents can happen to even the best heating mechanics with catastrophic results.

In PA they passed a state license a year ago..50 bucks every two years. Did they test me ...nooo did they verify any of the info I gave them ...who knows.

I for one am tired of government intervention in every facet of my life. I am tired of the weak and the stupid crying for safety and security at the expense of my liberties. You know who protects me.. I do. Take a look around,wait till the states start to default on their bonds and start letting multitudes out of prison, you still gonna be there wavin your flag...demanding plumbers have a separate license from heating men. You are still living in yesteryear.

rlaggren

From the consumers end

There are many parts of our lives that we don't know diddly about and don't have a tiny prayer of ever learning the concepts, much less the details, ourselves. Life has only some many hours a day and we depend on dozens if not hundreds of highly technical and obscure things. But we can't avoid important decisions about those parts of our lives - when the time comes you gotta jump.



So what's this to do with licensing? Easy. Licensing is one of the important ways that we make life a little less of a crap-shoot for the consumer (aka John "Regular Guy" Doe). Does a lot of other things, too, eg. bothering Tony, raising work standards a little, saving insurance companies money, giving some formal respect to knowledge and experience, making apprentices impatient....



I got a plumbing license in Ca. in 92. Wasn't too hard but I did learn a bunch of stuff I wouldn't have otherwise. I think I do good plumbing (ie. better than 85% of those getting money for it around SF) but even after 25 yrs I would not _ever_ try to pass myself off as a heating guy. It would take a lot more education and years experience before I'd be comfortable standing in the liability cross hairs for heating work.



To me that makes it a no-brainer: Heating needs a separate license and in all likelyhood it should have certificates for steam, h2o, and oil.



My .02



Rufus

CMadatMe

Free Marketplace

Do we not do that now with automobiles? There is a minimum mgp standard. Why can't this pertain to our trade? I feel it sends a message to the consumer that says, seek a real professional. I here you about the guy with no money. But I also feel that if a local govt sets a standard such as this town did that they should also offer low interest finiancing or program of some type. Heck I'm tired of my local taxes being raised every year. Govt as much as we don't want to hear it is a business. The more money my local govt can raise the less the burden falls on the local taxpayer. I'm not saying it's perfect but is a step in the right direction.