TT PE110 NG Setup Questions

JVC

I just installed a Triangle Tube PE 100 NG boiler in my 1750 SQ ft home replacing an old OIL boiler. I am new at this and would appreciate any help on setting this new boiler up. I have many questions and will try not to ramble to much.

House specs:1750 SQ ft, 2 floors, 2 zones, 1st floor has 150' of base board pipe 50' of that is radiator. 2nd floor has 120' of base board pipe 30' of that is radiator. Head hieght for 2nd floor is 12' to 13'. Using only the circ pump in the boiler no other circ pumps.

Questions:

1) Due to high pitch whistle in 1st floor living room radiator corner when circ pump is on high speed (#3) have turned it back to #2. Seems to still pump to 2nd floor ok. Is this OK to do ?

2) What do I set the computer controlled parameters to ? This boiler has outdoor reset feature. The only setting I changed from factory defaults was the coldest and hotest day temp. Default was 0 deg. I changed it to the MEAN lowest temp in Jan/Feb of 15 deg. I did this because boiler temp was way to low on 24 deg day at 0 setting. At 15 temp came up considrably. Would like to know what to set all parameters to for most efficiency.

Any help will be greatly appreciated. 

 

Jean-David Beyer

Setting resets.

Bear in mind that I am not a heating professional.



The contractor who installed my mod|con boiler just left the settings in their default positions. In warmer weather (i.e., not January or February) this resulted in too high water temperatures. The trouble with this is that my main heating zone is radiant slab at grade with enormous thermal mass. So once the thermostat is satisfied, the slab heats the house for 4 to 8 hours more and the temperature overshoots way too much. I do not think that contractor knew much about condensing boilers, especially modulating ones.



So I decided to do it myself. As a recovering engineer, I figured I could calculate the settings from my heat loss calculations. So I tried that, and it was a little better. But my heat loss calculations had too many assumptions in then, so they were not accurate enough for this (they were accurate enough to size the boiler).



So I spent the winter of 2009-2010 fiddling with the resets. Setting them is easy; knowing what to set them to takes time because each change requires waiting about 24 hours for the boiler-house system to stabilize. And that is for just one outdoor temperature. If only I could adjust the outdoor temperature, I probably could have done this in a week.



For the resets on my system, I set the warmest outside temperature I am interested in, and the temperature of the water temperature I want for that. That determines one point on the reset curve (which is a straight line, even though the manual says it is a curve). Then, in principle, I wait until the outdoor temperature gets down to the design temperature, and set the outdoor temperature and the water temperature I want for that. Then I wait and see how the house feels (or what the thermometers say), and tweak it a little more.



My goal is to supply as low a temperature as I can at all times that is just enough to overcome the heat lost from the house. (To get maximum condensing, and to keep the overshoot from too hot a slab as small as possible.) Right now, the curves seem pretty good. The house is never too cold. And it does not overshoot more than a degree; i.e., it goes up to 70 when the thermostat is set for 69F. It went down to 10.8F last night and the house got slightly too hot: 71.5F or so, and the heat ran 10 hours  23 minutes. So it is slightly too high at the low end. I would prefer it to run about 18 hours when it is below the design temperature. It probably does not matter very much, though.



Do you know the design day temperature for your location? In my part of New Jersey, it is 14F. In Buffalo, N.Y., where I used to life, it is 6F. And in Massena, N.Y., where I never want to go again in winter, it is -8F. Do you know how much heat you need to heat each room? And how much of what kind of baseboard you have. The more the better to get maximum condensing. If it was accurately designed for a conventional boiler, you will probably have to run 180F water and get next to no condensing. In my house, I greatly increased the baseboard in my upstairs zone so I could run it at less than 135F, so it almost always condenses there. Downstairs is a slab, so I must not put more than 120F water in that, but that is enough even if it goes down to 0 outside, which I have never seen in over 30 years. It does go below 10F once in a while.

Tim McElwain

JVC I am not avoiding your question

but it would be difficult to walk you through the setup in this venue. Perhaps someone else will take it on and do so.



However what I suggest is to get in touch with TT at www.triangletube.com or call 856-228-8881, they will connect you up with a factory service person who will be kind enough to walk you through the process on the phone as you stand right at the unit and follow there directions. I know it works because I have done it.

tim smith

Re: TT boiler and settings

How are you controlling your slab temp separate from your baseboard temp?  Did you install a mix valve or injection?  You got your temps close but not close enough to really run the same temp?  Just wunderin.  We usually set up the TT boilers for the radiator temp and use 3 or 4 way motorized mixing on the slab. If it was plates and tube under floor, you would probably be able to match temps with the extra baseboard you have. 

Jean-David Beyer

controlling your slab temp separate from your baseboard temp

The Ucontrol board in the WM Ultra 3 boilers, and some luck, does it all. No mixing; no injection. Piping is set up primary-secondary. Zoning with circulators.



The Ucontrol has three thermostat inputs, each at a different priority.



Priority 1 (most likely to get control) is hooked up to my indirect hot water heater, and the boiler set to provide 170F water to it. When priority 1 is in control, the boiler circulator is not running and a Flow Check valve keeps boiler water out of the secondary loop. The indirect is across the primary loop hand its circulator is on. The flow through the indirect is high enough that the boiler is happy.



Priority 2 is hooked up to the thermostat for the radiant zone, and the boiler runs on a reset curve that goes from 75F up to 120F depending on outdoor temperature. At priority 2 and Priority 3, the indirect circulator does not run, but the boiler circulator does. The circulator for the radiant zone runs.



Priority 3 is hooked up to the thermostat for the baseboard zone, and the boiler runs on a reset curve that goes from 110F up to 135F, depending on outdoor temperature. The Ucontrol has only three circulator outputs, so a separate Honeywell relay runs that circulator whenever the baseboard zone feels cold.



Notice that if the baseboard at priority 3 calls for heat, but the radiant zone is running, boiler water goes through both zones. This helps the baseboard zone, but it is on the cool side. The Ucontrol will allow the lower priority zones to seize control if a higher priority zone takes too long. The lower priortiy zone is allowed to run for a while, and then control reverts to the higher priority operation. Too long, and a while are both programmable.



If the reset curves and heat demands were unfavorable, requiring that the high temperature was required for too long, I would not be able to get away with this, but the baseboard zone requires very little heat, so it does ot really affect the radiant zone enough to notice.

Tim McElwain

JDB your Ultra is not the same

as a Triangle Tube. Your input is appreciated but at times when untrained posters ask for assistance the best thing they can do is get someone from the factory to walk them through the setup. The sad thing is that many installers do not know how to setup the modern Mod/Con boilers or furnaces. The result is that incorrect information gets sent and contrary to popular opinion the Internet does not have all the answers.



I personally know how to setup many of these units but you will rarely see a posting telling someone how to do it. Most of those I answer by e-mail or get them on the phone so we can talk back and forth as they set up there equipment. A large percentage however I refer to the factory for assistance. The reason for that is that the factory is right up to date with there particular equipment.



Please do not take what I am saying the wrong way, I applaud you for your knowledge and perseverance in getting your equipment to do what it is supposed to do.I also applaud you for your willingness to help others.

Jean-David Beyer

No problem, Tim.

I do not think I take your comments the wrong way. And thank you for your kind comments. (P.S., that new CO detector arrived yesterday and it is now installed and working in my bedroom. So I have two CO detectors from a big box store to pacify the inspector, and one to protect me. Pretty funny for an 1150 square foot house.)



I just wish it were not so terribly difficult to find someone who knows how these systems work. I just wish they were easier to find and were labeled (such as with a suitable certificate or license), so a customer willing to pay the price could skip all the knuckleheads. I never intended to learn as much as I have about hydronic heating. I thought the contractor would take care of that. But it turned out to be easier to learn that stuff myself than to find a suitable contractor.



The contractor who installed my new boiler used to be very good, and had a fine reputation. Unfortunately, they suffered from their success and bought out a lot of similar business and got too big and unable to manage it. They now have over 20 trucks. That is, in part, why I now have a new contractor who is not ideal either, but will probably be trainable to do a combustion tests, for example. The contractors around here do not seem to want to do those. It is really frustrating. I know my limitations and do not think I should be doing that myself. I mean I could get a digital combustion anlyzer and make the readings. And the instruction book says to turn the mixture screw (and which way) if they are off. But what if that does not fix it? I would need a competent technician for that, and if I had one, I would not need to do any of this myself.



I mean I have to pay the auto mechanics $250 and up to get my car serviced. And it takes a while to find them, so I expect to pay something like that to get my heating system inspected and adjusted once a year. Plus parts and such, of course. And more if there is something seriously wrong, like incorrect piping, of course. But overall, it is easier to find a good car mechanic than a good heating technician.

Tim McElwain

JDB yours is a story I hear

all to often. It is the reason I continue to keep teaching at my training center at the age of 71. I should be sitting on a beach somewhere sipping a cool drink.



The problem I find has to do with the licensing process or lack of it. Where licensing exists it gives contractors the right to conduct business. The customers assume that those who advertise are in fact able to do what customers expect from them. The truth is that many training programs teach them to solder and other piping and plumbing skills. They however do not teach the combustion, venting, air for combustion , nor do they learn the complexity of modern systems, things that they need to know. The rest of their knowledge many times comes from factory training for a day or half day in a hotel ball room.



The other problem in some areas is no licensing at all and anyone can conduct a mechanical systems business without any oversight at all.



The HeatingHelp website itself can be somewhat deceiving at times. Why is that you may say, the answer is that those who both know and do things right post here with all the confidence you would expect from a professional. The sad story is they are the exception, and in fact are so good at what they do that perhaps homeowners think everyone in the trade is like them, it just ain't so.



The other concern on a website such as this is that non-professionals also post here and there is really no way of really knowing who they are or what there abilities are. Many are gracious enough to identify them selves and that is appreciated. We still encourage there participation as that is what makes this site the exception. Other sites will not allow non-professionals to post and I certainly understand there reasoning and they are my friends so I am very clear on their reasoning.



A forum such as this can really get confusing when we are asked to set the parameters for a customer on their Mod/Con boiler or furnace. As I am sure those who do that as a profession after installation understand it can be somewhat complicated. I find getting someone on the phone with them sitting in front of their system looking at the required manual for their system and I am in the same manual on the other end we can get their system setup correctly. Better yet the reps from the manufacturer helping their installer of the system is even better. The truth is the reps know it better than I do.