Freewatt System plus's/minus's

dy

I have 2200 sq. ft. stone home built in 20's with 20 year old gas fired burnham hot water boiler and considering replacing with a freewatt system. Does anyone have experience with on of these systems?

LarryC

What are you going to do with the heat in the summer?

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A HEATING OR PLUMBING PROFESSIONAL

 

As I understand, Freewatt is a co-generation system that produces heat and electricity.  The electricity is more expensive than what you can buy from your local utility, BUT the waste heat saves you money on domestic hot water and house heating costs. 

 

If you don't need most of the heat you produce, then it is just expensive electricity.

 

I would suggest investing the money into more insulation, reducing air leaks, and improving winter solar heat gain.  Less energy loss equals smaller heating plant and reduced fuel bills.  I strongly suspect a 1920's era house can use some significant insulation upgrades along with replacement of the air leaking double hung windows.

clammy

ECR freewatt

Talked to a rep a few days ago and heard that they are going the way of the dodo bird ( in the US) being all the incentives are gone(tax rebates) and the product did not do as well as planned nor sold as many as perdicted still selling else where in the world and there will still be support for the ones installed i though they where a great idea but just not marketed as they should have been may be the second time around they will do better look at solar .May be they should show a carbon foot print of a power plant per kwh as compared to the carbon foot print of a free watt per kwh .Just me stirring the pot  peace and good luck clammy

DanHolohan

Who told you that, Clammy?

They just introduced this expansion of the product line today and it sure got my attention:



http://www.heatinghelp.com/product-of-the-month

pipe4zen

I don't think so Clammy, Larry

Dan is right , just today the hydronic version freewatt + was introduced.

The plus version gives you back up in case power goes down, limited number of circuits on back up.



50% average annual savings on your utility bill. And not sure how you arrived at it being more expensive electric. And there never were any specific incentives for mCHP units, Just the credits that are still available for energy effcient furnances and boilers, and freewatt qualifies for those.



In the summer, you can use some of that waste heat to make domestic hot water.



In case of a power loss if using the freewatt plus version, then a heat dump is needed.



As a freewatt dealer I'm excited, and believe this hybrid technology will be as sucessful as hybrid car technology.



http://www.ecrmediasite.com/StreamingEmail/freewatt.html

clammy

I liked the idea also

Local ECR rep was at one of the supply house and i was talking to him about the gb97 unit with was up and running in a moblie display trailer and we got talking and i mentioned my thoughts on the free watt system and he stated sales never meet what they where expected to and being all the gov rebates which make any of these systems avaiable and feesable to anybody  are  now gone unless you got some bucks floating around and believe in the new tech and don't mind paying some coin for future issues which shall occur just throw your retirement funds to the wind.As for myself the lack of any half way decent tech service or local dist. stoking any parts i am just about done with alot of the hi tech stuff besides being very bad to make a decent buk off of when some thing goes wrong for get about it the HO hate you and want it all for free and the local dist suck all in all besides working and studing to get outta the bussiness i am not going out trying to  installing any more mod con just to many little issues and to much non billable BS to make it with my while ,as for free watt i love the  idea  hope that it would do good but all in all i don't see peopel spending 12 grand on heat nor do i see them spending 24 grand on that set up and being new work is dead for get about it about here ever body wants cheap heat cheap a c ,expensive paver drive ways ,150 grand kitchens and new bmw not mod con or free watts more like a cheap direct vent ci boiler and base board or hot air any thing that requires no service and no masonary chimmey when i do see a mod con the installer was better at BSing then design ,layout and pulling it off also running temps 180 what a great world ,Also i have nothing to gain about lying about the free watt deal it may just be in my area north jersey i know some other supply house that arry them i believe there sales have been like nil peae and good luck clammy

Robert O'Brien

Clammy

negativity becomes a self fulfilling prophecy!

LarryC

Show me the money.

. 

 

I agree that when you are using the heat, a cogeneration system can make sense.  My concern is, when you do not need the waste heat, paying for fuel to generate electricity on a small scale is not economical.

 

Please show the numbers where it is economically justified to run the Freewatt system in the summer.  I am talking gas cost input and electric cost output. 

Please state your assumptions about how much it costs to heat all of the domestic water when not using the Freewatt.

I am just interested about the summer time operation only.  Like I said, during the winter it might make sense.

I am up in NH where I would have to use propane to run this system.  It wouldn't make sense for me.  For people who live on the Isle of Long, who have gas piped into their house, does it make sense?

 

Respectfully,

 

Larry C

Maggie Reed

freewatt(R) clarification

I just wanted to clarify a few things regarding freewatt(R) micro combined heat and power systems.



LarryC - freewatt was designed as a heating system.  The Honda unit comes on when there is a call for heat in the home.  If there is no call for heat, it doesn't come on so there is no need to worry about dumping heat in the summer.  freewatt can be combined with an indirect hot water tank where you will get some run time on the generator in the summer.  There are also some applications where it can be used as a pool heater.  Think of it this way.... you're going to use gas to heat your home in any case so you may was well get some free electricity out of it.  pipe4zen actually explained it really well.



Clammy - We are continuing to sell and support freewatt.  Our local manufacturer's reps do not handle freewatt so may have been misinformed.



Thank you all for the interest.

LarryC

Show me the numbers, please.

Maggie,

 

I am still open to persuasion, I am just skeptical.  What are the dollar numbers between using "x" number of CF of city gas going into a "y" % efficient furnance/boiler to provide "z" BTUs to heat a structure, versus using the same amout of gas to run the 'Freewatt(R) system?

 

You pick the x, y, & z.



I realize your mileage will vary.  I also realize that if you are going to spring for a Freewatt, you would probably not install a 85% cheapy furnance/boiler.

 

Larry C

Maggie Reed

Numbers

Hi Larry -

I'm not technical and don't know the exact numbers.  Shoot me an email on Monday when I'm in the office and I'd be happy to find them for you.

I know that the Honda unit does us a small percentage more of gas as compared to using just a 95% efficient boiler.  A 95% boiler doesn't produce electricity though...... 

freewatt(R) is probably not for everyone, but our homeowner who have one love it.  One even claims that she loves getting her electric bill in the winter months.  (Sorry the marketing coming out in me.... but I do love that idea)

HDE

Also

Clammy and maybe others, you need to brush up on the details of the 2011 tax incentives on energy star equipment that the Obama admin resigned on December 17th. Although less and contingent on whether the consumer has drawn from them, they are still available in lesser amounts.

HDE

What?

Was that a 190 word continuous sentence ramble?

meplumber

Check your facts Home Depot.

From the info that is being put out to the trades, it is not Energy Star that is the qualifier.



The product has to be listed by GAMA (or what used to be GAMA, they have a new name now).  Energy Star qualification alone is not a verifier for the tax credit.  It must have a manufacturer's certification statement that it meets the GAMA guidelines which are far more stringent than the Energy Star buy in ones.

HDE

Wrong

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=tax_credits.tx_index



No meplumber you are misinformed regarding products that qualify. You are trying to remember AHRI which is in the process of absorbing GAMA.



However it is still the Department of Energy that is controlling the reduced continuation of the Federal tax credits and partnered with Energy Star that is operating the program.



The manufacturer statement has nothing to do with GAMA or AHRI, it only states it meets Energy Star/DOE criteria.



See link above

 

On December 17, 2010, President Obama signed the Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010. This law extends the tax credits for energy efficiency into 2011, BUT at lower levels. The levels revert back to those in effect in 2006 and 2007, which were 10% of the cost of the improvement, up to $500, with a $200 max for windows, and several other set maximums.

Highlights:

• 10% up to $500 for insulation, roofs, and doors.
• Windows capped at $200, but qualification now ENERGY STAR
• Furnace and boilers capped at $150, and all furnaces and boilers must meet 95 AFUE
• $50 for advanced main air circulating fan
• $300 for air conditioners, water heaters, and biomass stoves 
• $500 lifetime limit. If you got over $500 in these tax credits from 2006-2010, you are not eligible for anything more

Robert O'Brien

Maggie Reed

Thanks for stepping up and addressing this! Not too many manufacturers participate and I applaud those that do!

Joannie

Energy Star & Tax Credit

Since I get this question often:  Many boilers that are Energy Star do not qualify for the Federal tax credit, as the efficiency needed to qualify for Energy Star is lower than the efficiency needed to qualify for the tax credit.  They may still qualify for local gas rebates, though.



Just an FYI

PaHeating

No Response

The problem I experienced with Freewatt is I wanted to buy one. I am a contractor in PA. I have e-mail them 3 times and they did not respond at all. I would have expected an OK here is the price, No we can't sell or kiss my a$$. But nothing. My concern now would be what would the support be like on a product where they will not even return an e-mail about a purchase.

pipe4zen

freewatt dealership

Pa,



Sorry about your experience. The way the freewatt systems are being set is is by exclusive dealership only base on your local population only. Some of the larger cities may have multiple dealers/installers, other areas may only have one for the entire county they are in. A single supplier may carry the whole state they are in.



As a contractor, you must go thru the installtion technical training and sales classes, to be able to buy or install freewatt systems.



In addition, freewatt systems are web based, and multiple notification emails and alerts are sent out when annual servicing of the Honda mCHP is needed. The homeowner, the contractor and manufacturer are alerted. If service does not occur, the Honda unit shuts down automatically,to protect itself, and you no longer can generate electricity.

The furnace or boiler will remain operational.



No other HVAC manufacturer offers lifetime monitoring of their equipment remotely.



If installer can not meet the servicing requirements, they will lose dealership. As you can see this was well thought out.



I suggest you find a freewatt supplier near you and see if you can become a dealer.

Philco

Is this true?

How can I find out about the Freewatt system?  I have heard about this technology for over 20 years, but I can not find an outlet to purchase the system, and the only contractor to come forward with any information was a scam. 

Robert O'Brien

Discontinued

ECR no longer sells Freewatt

clammy

ECR and freewatt

I guess I don't ramble as much any more  but I guess it only took 3 years for the rest of you to find out what I knew long ago haha peace and good luck negatively yours clammy

Robert O'Brien

Clammy

You got me on this one!!

clammy

just joking about

Thought it was funny that a 3 year old thread on some thing like free watt was re erected .The supply house I deal with sells a lot of that ecr stuff and at the time they had heard nothing of it but a rep was there and I was asking him about it and that's when I got the skinny on it .Personally I thought the idea was excellent but after really looking into it and all the components even I could see that this was not something that would be flying off the shelves for the mass consumer's in the mass housing settings  but for off the grid with a gen ran off well gas then you have something but the over all system cost and the ROI I really haven t ran the numbers but I can t see it being the deal maker unless you base your savings on  its carbon production  against large power plants .Peace and good luck clammy  PS  I wasn t busting on you at all robert  

Robert O'Brien

You were right

While I saw the issues with it 3 years ago,I thought they were surmountable,obviously not. The  cost was out of line,the 200K boiler too large,the generator output too low......



But how about this one? 

https://www.viessmann.com/com/en/products/Micro_CHP.html

freewattloader

We have had a Freewatt hydronic system operating trouble free since 2008. It runs from Sept to May virtually non-stop. Ours is mated with the 200K boiler and heats four buildings (10K S.F.) linked by an underground mini-district system. The ROI numbers do not work unless they can get the initial cost down. I do not see how this equipment should cost as much as an automobile, unless they need mass sales to get the price down. They technology is proven and the environmental benefits are indisputable. Why can't we make freewatt work in this culture, there are 100,000 of them in Japan. I suspect sinister forces at work.

Jamie Hall

I doubt that there are sinister forces -- unless the sinister force is the one which keeps the hand from reaching for the wallet. As you yourself said, the ROI numbers don't work, and for folks like me, that's where it stops.

You have the same problem with solar in many situations, and wind.

hot_rod

They need a consistent thermal load from what I have researched.

With todays fuel cost they should be close to penciling out, no? At $4.00 per gallon of fuel, maybe not so much.

I'm surprised NY state has not looked into them for some of the parks and comfort stations where power is all from diesel gensets.