Interesting take on the condensing boiler issue....

Mark Eatherton

Thanks Dan for the interesting article regarding the issues the English have had regarding modcon boilers.



Although the article somewhat wreaks of sensationalism (what English articles DON'T), I think it does point out some foibles about putting a Ferrari engine into a 1800's hay wagon.



Personally, I have not seen LESS than a 30% reduction, which is significant in and of itself. If we based everything we did on cradle to grave carbon foot printing, solar would NEVER be used.



Again, I think some sharp entity should look into getting rid of the condensate through evaporation. Either natural wicking or forced steam convection (to the OUTDOORS) to eliminate condensate in those situations where it can't be safely and correctly disposed of by gravity or pumped sanitary means.



Seems rather ironic and funny to me that the whole reason for England to promote the use of these products was due to their efforts to stave off global warming, and Mother Nature comes back with record cold, freezing the wicker bills on their condensing boilers. ;-/)



She can be cruel, can't she :-)



Personally, I think she was planning on doing this (climate changes) wether man is here or not, but what do I know... What does ANYONE know for that matter.



I still believe in stewardship towards ALL resources. Especially water. If you think that wars over oil are bad, wait until wars over fresh water start...



ME

DanHolohan

I think it was a perfect storm

No pun intended. New laws, wicked weather, salespeople, incentives, installation techniques. They all came together and this is what they got. 

canmar

Condensing Boiler issue

Where can I find a copy of this article?  I would love to read it.



Thanks

DanHolohan

It's in my weekly newsletter.

I send it every Thursday morning and it's free. You should subscriber. Here's a link for that:



http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter



And here's a link to the article we're discussing:http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/bargains-and-rip-offs/household-bills/article.html?in_article_id=520529&in_page_id=510&expand=true

canmar

newsletter

All signed up, thanks.  Have been in and out of this website for years and finally now have the time to take full advantage of it.  Hopefully I can be a contributor here and I look forward to the wealth of knowledge available.  Thanks!

DanHolohan

Glad to have you here.

Thanks.



Here's a link to some previous newsletters. I'm glad you subscribed. I think you're going to enjoy it. We have more than 5,000 opt-in subscribers and many of them write back to me each week with links to related stories. It's a terrific group:



http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs077/1102247842911/archive/1102266438441.html

Jean-David Beyer

Freezing condensate lines.

Apparently, the condensate drain lines froze up and that stopped the boilers.

In the article, they show the condensate line being small diameter flexible plastic tubing. I do not know if there is a code in England on how to do that. In my neighborhood here in New Jersey, there does not seem to be one. I would not be surprised if a little tube such as in the picture would freeze up in cold weather.



The contractor who installed my Mod|Con upped the size of the drain from about 1/2 inch ID to about 1 1/2 inch as it left the house. The most condensate I could get from my boiler is about 8 gallons per day, if it ran 24/7 at full output. On a few days where it was 32F or a bit more, I measured about 2 gallons per day. When it is colder out, my measuring bucket freezes and overflows, so I cannot measure it. Anyway, I imagine it would take a while to freeze that up. Now the contractor just dumped the water onto the grass so there is only an inch or so ot that PVC pipe out there with a downward facing elbow.  I worried about the small plastic tube in the unheated garage where the boiler is, so I arranged that the water drains out of it if the condensate pump is not operating. It is run in contact with the near-boiler piping on its way out, so it picks up a little heat that way. It did not freeze up last year or so far this year. Supposed to go down to 13F tonight, so we will see. The outlet was under 5 feet of snow a coupla weeks ago, but that did not block the modest amount of draining.

canmar

frozen line

Up in New England, you simply can't run a condensate line to the outdoors.  In my experience with both the Viessmann Vitodens, and Buderus GB142's anytime a condensate line is run to the outside it will freeze.  Surprisingly, I notice that in most cases even in the colder weather the boilers continue to condense a fair amount.  I haven't actually measured the amount at these times, but I have watched it happening.  I am no weather expert on the UK, but I do know it gets cold enough so I see this as an installation flaw.  As for the acidity, an acid neutralizer is necessary on the drain side and we also treat our loop water with Fernox.  This helps immensely with the heat exchangers, and I believe it is recommended in the installation manual for both products.  As for over sizing radiators, this is exactly what is needed to help with overall system efficiency.  Lower water temps leaving means lower water temps returning which in turn allows the boiler to condense more and maintain high efficiency.  This is a low cost set up that doesn't increase the cost of the job much and has a huge payback.  The last thing the article discusses is the cost of a new boiler.  I do agree that replacing a boiler that is in good running order, and by this I mean running cleanly and not wasting fuel, is not necessarily the way to go, but when people look at payback of over ten years, they look at the total cost of the installation, not the cost difference between a basic old style replacement and the higher efficient model.  If you need to replace a boiler, you need to replace it and there is a cost involved, it has nothing to do with payback.  The payback amount is the price difference between a basic old direct swap and the upgrade to a higher efficient model.  Just my thoughts.

DanHolohan

One thing to keep in mind.

These boilers are wall-hung and hanging in the kitchens of flats. 

canmar

Flats

I'm not sure, but are you aware of any code violations of them dumping condensate into the sewer?  I can understand if that is the case.  I am aware that they rarely have basements and space is a premium which will obviously hinder locations and installation.  Hell I get yelled at for running a condensate line in some old nasty basement here.  Takes away from the aura of the cobwebs put off or something.

DanHolohan

I suspect there are.

It being Europe, but we'll probably hear from our British friends soon. 

Jamie Hall

One has to realise...

that in most of the buildings -- particularly older blocks of flats in the urban areas -- all the utilities run outside the building.  All of them.  Plumbing supply lines, waste water lines, electricity, cable TV (if you have it), telephone -- you name it.  When you get to the point where you want the service inside you drill -- with considerable difficulty, at least in Edinburgh which I'm very familiar with, because all the flats are stone walled about a foot thick (no insulation, friends, no space in the walls, etc) (the floors tend to be pretty doggone solid too) through the wall, and voila.  It is very rare to see any building older than a few years with utilities in the interior, unless it has been gutted and completely renovated, which does happen but is rare.



Needless to say, frozen plumbing is not an unusual problem...



There are a number of areas, too, where the plumbing codes are radically different -- but I'm not up on them.  Hopefully CroydonCorgi is hanging out out there and will!

pipe4zen

The British are coming!

That is also my view of British plumbing in general. All of the piping is outside, anyway.

I'm not saying it is not a problem, but typical winters are above freezing temps. The article failed to mention how many homes/flats had burst water lines also. I'm sure the fitters over there are very busy. Thawing and repairing pipes in general.



Simple, UK codes need to mandate neutralizers and condensate pumps to drain into interior plumbing drains, like we do over here.

Charlie from wmass

Back in the 1950's

When My father was starting the trade in Glasgow the new buildings had the sewer piping run up the side of the buildings. They also used back outlet toilets to make it easier to run out the wall with the waste lines. It was not just for retrofitting into the old flats. As far as condensing boilers not saving money it is just a case of poor installations negating good engineering. and space age engineering getting whacked by Middle ages construction. The right design temp in the emitters will not be overcome by engineering a better boiler.

TonyS

Imagine That!!

Water actually freezes when exposed to freezing temperatures! There must be global warming in England ..The CO2 is displacing the oxygen that is need for brain function.

Viess

DITTO.

You can make a very cheap and effective neutralizer all by yourself using PVC and oyster shell. Even safe for septic systems. 

Mark Eatherton

There is a simple fix for the freezing problem...

It's called self limiting heat tape and insulation.



Probably against the energy laws in UK and EU tho...



Hind sight is always 20/20 :-)



ME