new to steam

butlermog

Hello everyone. Sorry in advance if many of my

questions have already been addressed in this forum. I am new, and there is too

much information to digest in a short amount of time.













I purchased an 81 year old home and this is our

first winter in it. The steam boiler is a Weil-Mclain EGH-85 and there are a

total of 14 radiators (1 in the basement, 7 on the first floor and 6 on the

second floor). All radiators seem to heat up well, although we have closed the

supply valves to some of them which are in rooms which we don't use. The house

is ~2600 square feet with lots of single-pane windows, and brick/stucco walls

without any insulation.







My main question is, what should I be doing to keep

my bills as low as I can? The previous month used 458 CCF of gas (which sounds

like a lot to me, but since this is our first year in the house, it might not

be), and that is keeping the thermostat LOW at 63 during the day, and 59 at

night. With those thermostat settings, I notice a pretty evident pattern:













When the thermostat calls for heat (temp in living

room reaches 62 in the day), the boiler will burn for between 27 and 32

minutes. Each one of these periods will burn between 1.5 and 2 CCF of gas. The

temperature in the living room will then get to 64 and the thermostat will shut

the boiler off. At that point, the temperature might get to 65 in the next few

minutes since the two large radiators in the living room are full of steam and

the temperature will not get down to 62 again for another 1-3 hours. The second

floor, however, stays 2-4 degrees cooler than that - i guess because the steam

heats the first floor radiators quicker than the second floor radiators.







Am I operating the system incorrectly? Could I

actually use less gas by keeping the thermostat higher and therefore burning

gas more often, but for less than 30 minutes? If so, how do I dial-in the

correct thermostat setting - trial and error? Or, should I expect to use

between 400 and 500 CCF/month in the winter?













Also, would there be a benefit to opening the valves

for all of the radiators, instead of keeping the rooms we don't use shut off?







And lastly, I have experimented a bit with

slightly closing the supply valves on the two radiators in the living room, in

hopes of encouraging the steam to rise to the two radiators (directly above

them) in the master bed room. This seems to help keep the master bedroom at a

similar temperature as the living room, but is it bad practice to have the

valves 'half open' in the living room?









Again, sorry for what I'm sure are elementary

questions. Thanks for any help.

Joe V_2

you would benefit

from a visit from a pro to survey your sytem.  It may be relatively inexpensive to get an efficient system simply by replacing traps and vents, adding insulation to your pipes.  You would get more bang for your buck this way.

Otherwise, you should post several photos so we can see what you are dealing with.

Joe V_2

double post. sorry

jpf321

welcome ..

you've got some good ideas, and have made some honest mistakes ...



first let's assume that you have 1-pipe steam (each radiator only has 1-pipe attached) and on the opposite end of the radiator is your air-vent mounted about 1/2-way up the rad ..



next, if you in fact have 1-pipe system, then your radiator valves should be FULLY OPEN or FULLY CLOSED .. and in reality most rad valves never fully close .. so basically all valves should be fully open ..



to shut a rad off, which will save you a few dollars, the most often prescribed was is to flip the air valve upside down .. this will prohibit the air from leaving the rad and thus keep steam from entering .. this assumes that the air valve is actually able to close when being flipped upside down .. this is easily tested by removing it from the rad (when the system is cool) and blowing in it .. both in the upright and upside down position .. in one case, your blow should move freely and the other you shouldn't be able to blow ..



now in terms of your different parts of the house being cooler than others .. this is achieved through system "balancing" and now that you know a little about air vents .. here's a little more .. air vents are the exit for air .. the speed at which the air exits is the speed at which steam enters .. therefore an airvent with a small opening will inhibit the radiator from getting hot fast vs. a vent with a larger opening. it sounds like what you are looking to do is decrease the heating speed of the LR and perhaps increase the speed in the upstairs .. and it probably sounds like you'd have to guess to figure it all out .. well luckily, there is much help out here for system balancing .. the basic premise is that you vent a radiator based on it's size (and somewhat on it's location) .. big rads have a large amount of internal air so they get bigger vents .. smaller rads get smaller vents .. the ideal situation is when all you rads are all heating in just about the same time ..



there are 2 kinds of vents available .. adjustable and non-adjustable .. for non-adjustable vents, the predominant one which we talk about here is the Gorton brand .. a small hole gorton is a #4 then in increasing size, #5, #6, #C, #D .. there is also talk about #1 and #2 sometimes .. but those aren't for radiators but rather for your main pipes in the basement .. for adjustable vents there are Hoffman 1A's, Doles VariVent, HeatTimer VariValve and a few others .. the Hoffmans and the Doles have numbers on a dial .. 1-6 .. the smaller the setting the slower the venting rate ..



now that you have a taste of things .. I recommend 2 purchases immediately .. both available only from the shop on this website .. Balancing Steam Systems ($10): http://is.gd/hVGDt and We Got Steam Heat ($25): http://is.gd/keY53



welcome again, and enjoy ..

butlermog

new to steam

jpf321 - thanks for the answer.



I actually have a 2 pipe system, and non of my radiators have air valves. (sorry, i should have included that information in the original post). Should I invest in a professional to come out an install them in all of my radiators? From the sound of it, that would certainly help the balancing issue.



Do you have any input on the thermostat setting/gas usage questions?



I am looking forward to purchasing the "we got steam heat" book, as soon as I can.

I can upload pictures of the system anytime if that would be useful.

David Nadle

things to try

I don't think it's outrageous to take 30 minutes to recover from 59 to 62, but if it takes 30 minutes to maintain 62, unless it's very cold outside, there might be a problem.



It sounds like you may have two-pipe steam. If so, have a pro come out and inspect your traps. If you have one pipe steam, check for main vents in the basement and confirm that they are working. Measure how long it takes for them to get hot from the moment the boiler starts to make steam. Ideally it will be less than 5 minutes. Check the cut-in pressure on your boiler's pressuretrol. It may be set too high causing you to burn fuel much longer than necessary. You should set the cut-in and differential to their minimums, 0.5 and 1.0 psi. Also, if your near boiler piping and mains are not insulated, they should be. By the way, if you have one-pipe steam don't leave any radiator valves partially closed. 



If your steam system is working efficiently, the number one thing you can do to reduce energy use is to air seal and insulate your attic. Your state and/or utility may offer partially subsidized home energy audits. In my opinion a very worthwhile expense.

Charlie from wmass

If your system does not

have vents then DO NOT install them. You have a trap or orfice two pipe steam or vapour system, Try the find a pro tab above and search your state or neighboring state for a professional to go over your system and get it balanced out.

jpf321

no .. no vents belong on 2pipe

no .. no vents belong on 2pipe...in a 2-pipe system, which is vented differently, you are allowed to open and close the valves.

jpf321

higher t-stat = more cost

as i understand it, the rate of heat loss is proportional to the temperature difference between 2 temps (inside & outside) .. therefore, raising the t-stat to a higher temp will accelerate the heat-loss from the living space (perhaps to a very small extent) and so you will be using more fuel to maintain interior temp at a higher temp.

Mark N

Big Boiler

I've read this post and your other post. You have a big boiler, its input is 349,000btus/hr. It can supply 875 sqft of steam. If I were you I would figure out exactly how much radiation is in your house. This will let you know if your boiler is sized properly or not. The whole purpose of a central heating system is to keep the occupants of the house comfortable. Are you comfortable at the setting you are using. You have to find a setting that you are comfortable with both the temp and the cost. If you boiler is properly sized it is not going to be cheap to heat your home. Your boiler burns 3.49 therms of gas every hour of run time. You state that you used 458 ccfs of gas for the previous month. Figuring a 31 day month that comes out to 14.8 ccfs/day. How much gas do you use for cooking, the clothes dryer, the hot water heater or was all the gas you used for heating? Look at the bills for gas for the months that the boiler doesn't run. What is your gas usage? Subtract it from what your using now and you'll have a pretty good idea what you are using for heating.

butlermog

Big Boiler

Mark,

Thanks for your reply. In a month that we do not run the boiler, we will use between 15-20 ccfs for the month for the water heater and oven/stove. So 95% of the usage last month was for the boiler.

I understand that we have a large house and a large boiler, it is because of that that I am trying to understand as much as I can to keep my costs as low as I can. Obviously I understand that heating the house will cost money - but since I'm new to the system, I'm trying to find out if I am spending too much or if my usage sounds typical for my situation. Unfortunately, my local steam heating contractor (south-western Ohio) seems uninterested in helping me to optimize my system - so that is why I'm asking all of these questions to this board.

In 1994 the company that installed the boiler calculated there to be 840 sq. ft of available radiation, and 201,600 required BTU's. So, how do I use these figures to determine if my system is working well, or poorly (given the other data supplied above about how long the boiler runs to gain 2 degrees in the house)? Or is that not possible? Again, thanks for your help, and sorry if it seems like I am asking unanswerable questions.

Jamie Hall

So far so good...

If someone calculated 840 square feet of radiation, and the boiler is rated at 875, you're just about on the money on that.



Two pipe steam systems are easy (ha ha) to balance -- but the very first thing to do is to make sure that it is operating at the correct maximum pressure.  There should be, on the boiler, a controller for pressure -- the pressuretrol.  This should be set to a maximum pressure of 1.5 psi, and a cutin of 0.5 psi.  It may not be able to go that low.  Let us know the model number (better yet, a picture of the controls!) and we can help you with the settings.



Second, you really shouldn't have to  turn the radiators in the room with the thermostat down or off.  Leave them be.  If other rooms are too warm, you can turn the radiator valve down -- keep fiddling until you get it the way you like it.  Then the thermostat will control the boiler, and the other rooms will stay the way you like.



If the radiators in some rooms don't heat up enough, this is most likely a venting problem -- but not on the radiator.  There should be main vents on the steam lines (or returns) in the basement.  These allow the air to get out of the system fast, so that steam can get to all the radiators at more or less the same time -- say within 5 minutes or so.



Of course, that's all ideal.  It almost sounds as though your house may have more radiation in the living room with the thermostat than you need there, so it may be necessary to turn those radiators down to compensate for that.



Insulate all your steam lines in the basement that you can reach, if they aren't -- it will make a big difference.



And... buy at least "We Got Steam Heat" from the bookstore on this site (better yet, by the three book combo).  That will help you get up to speed on how steam heating systems work, and then you will be the local expert and can help your heating contractor work on your system when you hit things you can't or don't want to do yourself!

Mike Kusiak_2

Thermostat?

What type of thermostat are you using? The fact that you are overshooting the setpoint temperature indicates that its anticipator, differential or cycling rate may need to be adjusted.



How often does the boiler come on and run the 30 minute cycle?



You have a big old house with no insulation and high heat loss, so in general your heating bills will be high. Probably your best investment would be to insulate and generally tighten up the house to reduce heat loss.

Mark N

Steamy Deal

If I were you I would get the steamy deal offered on this web site. Being you don't have a local steam pro that can handle your system you are going to need to know as much as possible about it as you can. Being the home owner you have time and incentive to make your system as efficient as it can be. I don't have 2-pipe steam so I'm not familiar with how it operates. Lots of different types of systems out there. Get the books and figure out what type you have. You mention a radiator in the basement. Does it hang from the ceiling above the boiler? Some systems used a rad above the boiler to condense the steam in the return. I have a simple 1-pipe parallel flow system. Two years ago I replaced the boiler and all the vents. But the biggest thing I did to make the system more efficient was ditch all the rad covers I had. These things would make my boiler run longer on every call for heat. With the rad cover on the boiler would run 35 to 40 minutes to satisfy the tstat. With the covers removed the run times dropped to 20 to 25 minutes. I figure I'm using 10 to 15 minutes less gas every time the boiler runs. That adds up over the whole heating season.

butlermog

Pictures

Jamie, here are some pictures of the system. Please let me know if there are further images that would be helpful. Thanks.



The picture with the red circle drawn (should be the 5th picture) is showing the location of the main vent. I believe that only one of those vents is working correctly. The vents are about 30 feet away from the boiler in the next room.

butlermog

Covers

I thought that radiator covers were supposed to distribute the heat throughout the room better - so it's odd that getting rid of your covers helped you. My living room and master bed room are the only rooms with covers on the radiators. Both rooms have two very large radiators.

There is one radiator in the basement which is hung from the ceiling, but not directly above the boiler. Instead it is in the next room directly under where the thermostat is. That room was probably used 70 years ago, but is just storage for us now, so I don't have the valve to that radiator open.

I'm very interested in your experience with removing the covers. Can anyone offer an explanation why removing the covers cuts down the run time? 10-15 minutes every time the boiler is on would be a HUGE improvement for us.

butlermog

Thermostat

I just installed a new thermostat which has programmable time slots. However, I do not use the programs and instead just keep the temperature constant - except for turning it down at night while we sleep. I thought all thermostats were the same. I could very easily put the old thermostat back on.

If we have the thermostat set to 59-degrees, then the boiler will come on every 2.5 hours-4.5 hours (depending on the temp outside and sunshine) during the day, but probably every 1-1.5 hours throughout the night. If we have the thermostat set to 65 degrees, then the boiler will come on every 1.5 hours during the day, and every 1 hour or so in the morning (have never set the thermostat to 65 over night). But, so far, regardless of what the thermostat is set at, the boiler is on for 30 minutes each time.

You are very right that we have a big house with no insulation and high heat loss. We knew this when we bought the house, but we also were told by the local utility company that the average bill over the previous 12 months before we owned the house was $200. That made me believe that the winter bills would be ~$350. But even if I was wrong, and the winter bills for the previous owner were ~$500, I'm still confused because he kept the thermostat at 69-degrees. Our cost was between $400 and $450 last month while keeping the thermostat at 59 and 63.

I plan on using your advise as soon as possible to add insulation to the attic and perhaps find a solution for some of the windows - but it is not possible right now.

(Sorry if the above violates the forum rule about discussing cost. I assumed that rule was in place to stop talking about cost of hiring contractors and the like.)

Rod

Info on Radiator Covers

Hi- Here's some info on radiator covers. Percentage subtracted means more efficient, Added means less.

- Rod

nicholas bonham-carter

improving efficiency

i'm not sure what  i am seeing in the red circle, but it appears to be some sort of vapor system vent. if that is the case, we should see some better pictures of it and the radiator valves. what are the 3 hoffman vents attached to?

a vapor system thrives on low pressure-2 ounces-12 ounces, and may not work at all at higher pressures. the air must be let out by good vents, or forced out by the gas company, [for an extra 10-15%]

a visit from a real pro would be beneficial, but let's see more pictures.--nbc

butlermog

pictures

NBC,

The three hoffman vents are what is in the red circle. The picture with the red circle was just to show the location of those vents.

Those are the only vents that I know of in the system. One of them spits some water if the system builds up to 1-2psi pressure, i'm not sure if the other two still work or not - how could i verify that?

From everything that I am reading on this site, perhaps some new vents could really help me out.

I agree that a visit from a real pro would be great, but the company that installed the boiler doesn't seem interested in working with me on the system anymore.

Mark N

Rad Covers

They type of rad cover I had reduced the output by 30%. So therefore it would run longer to satisfy the tstat. All my rads had covers. As a test I opened the lids on all the covers to see what would happen, and what happen was the boiler ran less to satisfy the tstat. The first winter I ran with the lids propped open last year I put the covers in the attic.

Mike Kusiak_2

Honeywell programmable thermostat?

Do you have a Honeywell digital thermostat? The 30 minute on cycle with variable off time in between seems familiar. The graph below is from an uninsulated building with a Honeywell  programmable thermostat maintaining constant temperature, and as you can see, the cycles are about 30 minutes long with about 3 hours off in between.



I guess Honeywell has determined that this is the optimum cycle time for a steam system. As the weather gets colder, the 30 minute cycles become more frequent, but they still remain about 30 minutes long. Actually 30 minutes seems about right for best efficiency, as it gives time for steam to reach all radiators, yet is not excessively long so you don't short cycle on pressure.

nicholas bonham-carter

replacement vents

yes, replace those vents with 3 gorton #2's to start with. they are cheaper than hoffmans and much more capacious. save the hoffmans, for later cleanning, and checking.  later, as you get to know the system better, you may find a better location for them such as the dry return closer to the boiler.

the videos found here will show you what goes on in those vents:

http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=610

--nbc

butlermog

vents

NBC,

Thanks. I watched those videos yesterday. I can freely admit that I don't understand main vents 100%, but I gather from this forum that they are very important.

Are 3 Gorton #2 vents sufficient? The website that the videos are one have some pictures with 5-10 Gorton #2 vents... do I need to do something like that?

butlermog

not honeywell

Mike,

The thermostat that I put in a few months ago is not a Honeywell, it is a Hunter brand (cheapest programmable unit at lowes). It was the same thermostat that we had at the previous house - but that was a new house with force air. So I guess I was pretty stupid to think that it would be just as good for me at this house.



I'm fairly certain that the thermostat that is currently being used isn't forcing cycles to be 30 minutes. That is just the amount of time that it takes to get the living room up 2 degrees.



I think that this is the main question that I have been trying to answer - I have read several people in this forum discuss that their boilers run longer on a 'cold start', but then run for less time on cycles later in the day. My cycles are always 30ish minutes - if trying to 'maintain' the thermostat temperature, or recovering from the 59 degree temp that we set it at throughout the night (what I'm assuming a 'cold start' to be). So it sounds like my system is acting as if every time the thermostat calls for heat it is a 'cold start'. Should I be expecting to be able to get longer cycles in the morning (because the system has not been running much throughout the overnight), but then move into shorter cycles during the day (perhaps even if the cycles are more frequent)? Or is it right that my cycles are always the same?

Jamie Hall

It does look

as though this system was set up to be a vapour system -- which, when working well, are the very best there are (in my humble opinion).  The main vents are important -- in fact, in a vapour system, critical.  I agree with nbc -- replace those three with three Gorton #2s.  However, you really shouldn't need more than that (more is always better, but there is a point of diminishing returns on that, believe it or not).



However, while you are saving money on the Gortons, I'm going to suggest that you may do even better by spending some coin and adding a vapourstat, 16 ounce type, in series with your pressuretrol (which is set as well as it can be, from the picture).  You may be able to use the same pigtail for both, with some clever work with fittings and nipples.  Set the vapourstat to about 12 ounces on the main scale, with an 8 ounce differential, and reset the pressuretrol to around 2 psi.  Doing this will enable you to get better control over the radiators for balancing -- as well as improving the life of the various vents and traps.



There's no problem, as I said before, in closing the valves to unused radiators on a vapour system.  In fact, that's part of what the valves are for (the other part is balancing the system).



Can you take a picture of a typical radiator inlet valve and outlet fitting?  Then we can get a better idea of what sort of vapour system you have, and give better advice, perhaps.



Being in the old house restoration business, I would evaluate what to do about the windows very carefully indeed -- it does not always pay to spend a lot on replacing old windows with new ones.  Some work on the old ones, to tighten them up, and separate storm windows can be very nearly effective, and less expensive.  Mike K. is right on on tightening things up -- infiltration is the real killer in older houses, and working on the existing windows can do wonders.  Also attic insulation, if it's easy enough to get to.

Mike Kusiak_2

Setback recovery

I would expect that the boiler would run longer coming up 4 degrees out of setback than just maintaining temperature with a 2 degree differential. Doesn't your system run longer than 30 minutes to bring up the temperature 4 degrees? Are there any thermostat settings for differential or "swing", or settings specific for steam systems?



Here is another graph of the same system as before, coming up from a 15 degree setback. It takes almost 4 hours of constant firing to reach the setpoint.

butlermog

more pictures

Jamie,

Here are pictures of a radiator and the valve and steam trap.

I've never heard of the system that you are talking about. Perhaps when the book I ordered gets in I will learn about it. If you have a quick explanation of what a vapour system is compared to other systems that would be great.

I think that your advise about the windows is right on. We are not planning on replacing the original windows, but instead thinking about adding interior storm windows which will not change the appearance of the house from the outside (we live in a historic district, which does not allow us to modify the exterior look). Also, we have 35 windows, so replacing them isn't possible without winning the lottery. We plan on adding attic insulation and tightening up as much of the house as we can soon.

Thanks again. I hope the pictures help.

butlermog

recovery

Mike,

I believe that both thermostats have a setting to tell when to ask for heat - I believe what you are calling 'swing'. the settings are 0,1,or 2. I believe 1 is the default, which means that if the thermostat is set to 60 degrees, once the room becomes 59 it will call for heat. it will stop the call for heat once the room reaches 61.



There are no settings specifically for steam systems, but are you saying that putting this setting to 2 might be beneficial? That would mean that it would not call for heat until the room temp was 58, but the boiler would run until the room reached 62. I suspect that the boiler would still only run for 30 minutes if I made this change.

jpf321

I'm an advocate of....

swing = 0 and always leave temp constant 24/7. if you set swing at 0 and decide to use a nightly setback you should see a difference in your morning recovery cycle time.

butlermog

swing=0

JPF,

Can you explain why you like swing=0? I believe that this would keep the temperature around the house at the most constant, but I think it would also create the most cycles possible throughout the day - right? Also, why would this effect the morning cycle time if we decided to use a setback?



Sorry - I'm sure you think I'm pretty stupid since I'm asking so many questions, but all of this advise is really helping me.

Thanks again.

Mark N

Mouat

There you go it looks to me that you have a Mouat System. If I were you I would contact Gerry Gill. He is in Ohio but I think near Cleveland. Maybe he can put you in contact with someone in your area who works on Mouat. Gerry has a website gwgillplumbingandheating.com.

Steve_175

Interior storm windows

If you are going to go that route I would recommend the magnetic type.

I have used these guys and they make a first rate product but a little spendy.



http://www.alliedwindow.com/interior-storm-windows.html



If you want to go the DIY route try these.



http://www.windowsaver.com/



Here are a couple more that I have not used.



http://www.climateseal.com/



http://www.windotherm.com/index.htm

ttekushan_3

Mouat valves

Well, I had a very lovely post for you, but it got lost in the aether.



Suffice it to say that you have an orifice vapor system. We see these often in Cleveland. EVERY valve in the system should look like that Mouat valve. If any have been replaced then the heat distribution will be very wrong. An easy way around it is that if there are any standard valves that replaced the MOUAT valves, then close them and then open them about one half turn or so and see if this evens things out.



Also, you shouldn't have any more pressure than 4 ounces or so, so you really should have a vaporstat instead of the pressuretrol that you now have. This explains the rusty stains above the vents. The mouat system typically didn't have end of main vents, but end of return vents only. From where those vents are, look straight down and you should see a short pipe that connects the steam main's drip leg to the return. That line MUST be below the boiler's water line. The depth below the water line and the low steam pressure keeps the steam supply isolated from the return. What is happening here, I think is that that loop seal is getting blown out and closing the vents, at which point any cold radiators will stop heating any further.



Rectifying these minor issues should straighten out any problems. Also watch that that cross link pipe between the main and return is not partially clogged. That can cause some vexing problems too.



EDIT: look at the water line of the old boiler as compared to the newer one. Now look at the height of the lower loop seal on those pipes on the wall (below the red circle). The supply is short circuited to the return. As it is right now, it looks like the steam is quickly traveling the length of the main and then finding its way to the vents. The system is then air bound, and your run time will be very long, as well as the fact that the steam will be nearly stalled before it reaches the second floor. Very inefficient.



You MUST have a vaporstat installed and you have to either lower the return system or install a false water line (preferred). All of this is outlined in Dan Holohan's books. It really isn't that difficult.

Mark N

Mouat

Did you read Terrys post about the loop seals? Did you check out "gwgillheatingandplumbing.com"? Look at the pictures he has under steam boiler installs. There are some Mouat sytems there. They have low fire capability, they have false water lines. Like Terry said compare your old boilers water line to the new boiler.