Carbon Monoxide Urgent

Tim McElwain

CARBON MONOXIDE 



How do you keep yourself and your customers safe? What is the protocol you follow when entering buildings? I purposely put this on the Wall section so it would get some attention.





I am asking this because I was approached by someone in a very high position in US government with those very questions.

\



I am surveying all of you to see what you will have to say on this subject. No names or e-mail addresses will be used or given to anyone. I am doing this on my own.

Tim McElwain

I assume that

52 people have viewed the posting as of 7 PM Jan 4 and do not do anything concerning CO issues. Is it really so?



Do you have a personal CO detector you wear everyday?



Does you r home have a CO detector?



Do you check fossil fuel burning equipment for CO?

billtwocase

I think

Most service personnel do whatever is necessary to protect their customers. I always look for co detectors and smoke alarms, check their location and advise that batteries need replacing, and obsolete detectors be upgraded. I don't think we are the police for these detectors, nor should we be, just being mindful. Obviously any venting/combustion issues need to be remedy by service personnel related to their field. 

Steamhead

Well, I'll step up

If we work on a burner or other combustion unit, we test it.



If there is any suspicion that a unit might not be working right, we tell the owner it needs to be tested even if we aren't there to work on it. Most times they are glad to have us do so.



I do have a CO detector at my house.



I don't have a wearable CO detector, but should probably get one.

Mark Eatherton

I wear a personal detector when working....

I will be meeting the Chief Boiler Inspector for the State of COlorado this coming Friday and will ask him the same question and post his response back here.



Tim, I am sure you probably remember this



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/130667/Personal-CO-detectors-monitors-alarms



Also, I test all gas fired appliances that I work on and have immediate access to (stoves, ranges, but not sealed nat gas fire places) in my customers homes.



ME

icesailor

CO Urgent"

I carry a personel CO detector.

I have them in my home. Massachu8setts require them in homes built after a certain date and they be installed when new gas appliances are installed.

My home has two.

I test but not for CO because I only use a wet tester and only do oil. I will be purchasing a Combustion analyzer soon to do gas. I have access to them at all times if needed though.

Jean-David Beyer

This may not count.

I am just a homeowner, so this may not count.



I have a Big Box Store CO detector on each floor of my house. I have one of those high sensitivity detectors on order, but it is not here yet. I do not have one in my garage where the boiler is. I might not hear it in the house if one went off there.



I am resisting buying a combustion analyzer, but may do it someday. I do not know it it would be suitable for casual measurements like around the house, but I doubt it. If I had one, I know I would check my gas boiler with it. I wonder if it would do any good to test the exhaust of my car with it. Or whether trying it would poison the sensors. Everything inside the house is electric except for regular candles, and I do not burn them much.

EricAune

I do not have a wearable unit

I do combustion testing and co on all units I come in contact with and install.  I have two CO detectors (off the shelf, run of the mill) at home and have recently started including them on all new gas appliance installs.  I just include it on the initial bid, install it where recommended with no implied warranty beyond the manufacturer's.  I would like to think my customers have kept them in place after I leave. 

Tim McElwain

Sure would like to

hear from some more of you. What about I don't check anything, no one is going to jump all over you for that. This posting is for me to gather information to settle a point with a very high US government official who stated to me recently I quote " all plumbing, heating, AC, gas fitters etc Carry personal protective CO testers and meters as per their license requirements in each state." he went on to say, "I would imagine that people who work with such volatile products would test every environment for CO and combustible gases."



I told him he needs to do some research he told me to check with local authority having jurisdiction. So I did same answer of course every one tests before they enter a dwelling. I quote," If I smell CO or gas I will not enter a building and I call the gas company or fire department."



Boy do we need education!!!

hot_rod

not in the field anymore

but I did wear one of those belt clip detectors.



A lot of folks in my area heat with wood stoves and never think about CO, combustion air, etc. Many people think CO is just from vehicles and gas/ oil fired appliances.



I was involved in a CO lawsuit a few years back, after that every customer got a letter explaining the dangers of CO. Every ice storm that hits this area is followed with CO poisoning and unfortunate deaths as homeowners fire up generators in their garages and homes.



I am a fan of the products George developed at COexperts.com He has some excellent info at his site. I have his low level detector in my shop and it has warned a few times when the wood boiler misbehaved.



hr

icesailor

CO Urgent:

Tim,

I am the ONLY person I know in the circle of where I work who OWNS a personal CO detectors, let alone, knows when to use one. The local LP company that does a lot of gas service doesn't own them or have any CO analyzers.

I walked into a house today that is all electric heat but put a Rannaii gas heater in a few years ago. I was there for a leaking electric water heater call. I walked in the door and smelled an odor that either was trash or gas odorant and the heater was close by. I went back to the truck, got my CO tester, set it, went in the house and set it around the heater. "000" no matter where I went. Went outside and stuck it in the exhaust vent. Instant "040" and climbing.  Tester works, unit not leaking CO in structure.

Life is good.

There is a place in New Bedford a Fire Captain told me about that sells industrial safety equipment. They sell a multi-gas unit for firefighters and people that work in industrial plants where hazardous materials are used. It seemed that it would respond to more than 50 substances. It was under $300, you turn it on and don't turn it off. It is good for two years, you throw it away and get another one. It was described to me as the size of a package cigarettes. Firemen carry them in their shirt pocket or on their belt. That sounded cool but I didn't need that frequency of use and didn't want to replace every two years. But it did all gasses. 

FYI 

haventseenenough

haventseenenough

All personal CO detectors do is detect CO in your work environment,no small thing. Letting the service tech know their may be a bigger problem. They most likely do not measure parts per million, (ppm) lower explosive level (lel), and upper explosive levels (uel). If you do not have access to a combustible gas analyzer, not a combustion efficiency kit, the local fire dept. or gas company should be glad to help. And all CO detectors should be placed in the highest part of any living space. If it located by the floor and it goes off its probably to late to help anyone.

Mark Eatherton

Bump...

I think this is pretty important. As Tim said, if you DON'T wear a personal detector, and or DON'T do combustion analysis, that is OK. It is NOT (to my knowledge) a "requirement" at this time.



If you don't do it, say you don't do it. No ones going to track you down and make you do it. Just an informal survey here.



What say ye?



ME

StevenB

I work

with oil systems so I'm not generally concerned too much with CO in a home. We do use Testo electronic testers on all our jobs so evey annual service is tested for CO.

Mark Eatherton

I'm curious Steve...

I don't know squat about oil, but am interested in why it is that I hear oil people saying that they aren't worried about CO because the y work with oil. Why is that?



ME

TJ_5

Carbon Monoxide Urgent

I cary a personal CO detector on my belt every time I go into a Boiler room or mechanical room with a fuel burning device.  I have Co detectors in my own Basement and near the bedrooms on first floor

MikeyB

CO

When I worked w/ 2 different Licensed shops in Queens NY, we never did a Combustion Analysis on any boiler/water heater we had installed or serviced the only test we had done was with a match to check for draft, I never new what a Personal CO Detector or what a Combustion Analyzer was at that time, now being an Operating Engineer in NYC, I own a personal CO detector and and Combustion Analyzer, I currently do not have any Fuel burning equipment in my building now, but if and when I move to another building that has them I will be a little more educated &  prepared thanks to the ongoing efforts to educate of Tim M. and Mark E, I have quite a  few CO/Smoke detectors in my home, some hard wired & some on battery. I am also looking to join up with NCI and get to some of Jim Davis classes when they come to town.

Mark Eatherton

The State of COlorado's boiler inspectors DO carry personal monitors...

At the present time, the 9 State employees are required to carry personal CO and EG detectors when in the field. Not certain about the private (Hartford) inspectors tho.



Also, at present the State does NOT do any flue gas analysis. (Am working on that...)



Is anyone aware of any other state or Federal government agencies that do perform flue gas analysis as a part of their Annual/Bi-Annual boiler inspections?



Thanks



ME

Tim McElwain

In RI a certificate

of inspection and testing is done on large commercial boilers, schools and other public buildings. The testing is not done by state inspectors but is done by several local engineering firms. No testing of any kind on any other dwellings unless required by insurance companies.

Tim McElwain

Survey Results so far

31 Propane delivery/Service - two do testing, none carry Combustible Gas Detectors or personal protective devices.



12 HVAC companies so far 2 do testing, and carry PPE they do not carry Combustible Gas Detectors. They call the gas company if they smell gas and then go on into the building to do their work.

Mark Eatherton

That means 93%...

of LP service companies DON'T do combustion analysis.And NONE of them carry PPE's... What is wrong with THIS picture...I'd like to know what OSHA Larry would have to say about this :-)And these guys are swimming in LP.And 83% of HVAC service companies DON"T do due diligence as it pertains to flue gas analysis. That's a shame. They could be saving a lot of lives AND money from the increase in efficiency. There ought to be a law. Wait a minute. There is. If the manufacturer recommends and in some cases REQUIRES an annual inspection and testing, then the installing contractor SHOULD provide those services. And if they are already gone out of business, then the OTHER service contractors SHOULD be capable of doing the analysis and tune up. If I were a betting man, I'd buy a good combustion analyzer company stock :-)ME

icesailor

Personal detectors in public:

I have to tell you all a story about an experience I had. You never know when you are exposed.

I have a customer that wanted to replace his installed gas fireplace logs. Installed and inspected a few years ago by a LP gas supplier and installer. Legal of course. They wanted to have me install the new ones. They ended up buying them from a stove and fireplace shop.  This shop has been around since the last energy crisis, like 1970's. The appliances were shipped to a place where I could pick them up. I installed the first one with no problem. The second one was another story. Something seemed to be broken or missing. I contacted the seller at their shop and I made arrangements to meet them there in the AM to get the part. I got there at 7:00 AM. I start early. Someone showed up at 7:45 AM and started opening up the shop. I had to sit in the truck until 8:15 before they would let me in. They had to start the heat in the building. It was heated with their fancy wood and coal stoves. When I went in, I could smell the smell of starting wood stoves. After a while, I finally got my part and I asked them what my insert was supposed to look like when it was running. So they showed me.

When you walked in the door of the shop, there was a big long hearth set up with three different logs set up for display. There was a big black metal hood (like a kitchen range hood) above the hearth to collect the exhaust. They turned on the gas and turned on one or the log sets with a remote. It jumped to life. It was called a "deep woods" model with a "real woods like fire". It did. This lovely yellow flame, licking through the ceramic logs with black smoke coming off the flam tips. I admired the whole thing (and thought it sucked). They left it running. I walked around the store for a while more because I had time to kill before my plane flight. Then, that little thing in my/our head went off and told me that there was something wrong with my environment. I was smelling gas exhaust. Being ever conscious of my surroundings, I noticed that the only make up air in the building was probably coming down the roof vent for the hood over the running gas log. The more I looked, the more concerned I became and looked carefully at the situation. That the gas exhaust was being pulled down the flue that was being used by the gas log for make up air for the wood stoves. I then went to the owner/whomever I had been dealing with and asked them if they had any CO detectors installed around all this equipment. She told me that they sold them to the customers if they wanted them but they didn't have one installed in the store. I carefully suggested that they should have one and that as a Master Plumber and Gas Fitter and installer of such things, CO could bite you in the butt. I also suggested that because of the dangers that their customers could be exposed to that they might share some liability, they should consider GIVING customers a free CO detector with every sale and insist that they have them installed.  Although it was cold outside and cold in the building, my comments were received with a quite frosty attitude. I left and vowed to get another personal detector that I could carry in my mainland truck. Which I did a week or so later.

I replaced the log for my customer and I hated the thing. I didn't trust it as far as I could throw it. I put two CO detectors in the house. One on the second floor outside a bedroom with a blocked off fireplace above the kitchen fireplace where I replaced the log. It worked fine. But I didn't like it. Three months later, in June, I get a frantic call from the caretaker that the CO alarm went off outside the upstairs bedroom. That flue had been blocked off years ago and wasn't used. But because it was still part of the flue system, it was connected to the downstairs system. I put my personal detector into the fireplace and had high background readings but when I put it into a corner where the damper was, I could feel warm air coming down and into the room. I had 80 PPM of CO pouring into the room. The downstairs flue was getting make up air through the blocked and sealed up flue. I changed it to a vent free model and they don't use it.

The important part of the story.

Six months later, the wood stove and fireplace shop burned down when it caught on fire during the night. Cause unknown.

Silent but deadly. You never know where you will meet up with CO.

Less than $.30 per day over two years that could save my life? I spend more than that for coffee.

Tim McElwain

Two years ago

I had a booth at one of the Propane Shows. In the booth next to me was a insurance company who insures Natural Gas and Propane companies. As normally happens the gentleman at the booth and i got into a discussion about safety. I asked him about protective and testing equipment and he was unable to give me an answer about whether they as insurers monitored what the companies they insured used for testing. I gave him my card and we went on our way. A month later I received a call from his boss a Vice President. He ask me if I would put together a training program for 20 of their sales and claim reps. In the discussion I found out they had surveyed all o0f the companies they insured as to equipment on hand for safety and detection purposes. The report was pretty good from the Natural Gas companies almost 90% had Co/Methane PPE equipment or CGI's. None of the Propane Companies had any at all, he was really shocked.



This set about several training sessions that I ran for his company. The interesting thing was the insurance company paid for all of their Propane Company owners to attend the sessions. At the end of each session I conducted the insurance company rep advised the Propane dealers that their insurance rates would be going up unless they got some training and equipment. I know for a fact one of those companies attended one of Jims classes in the Boston area.



Hit them in the pocket book and maybe they will wake up.

Tim McElwain

You will find

that many Propane companies do not provide test equipment for their employees. This had better change as we have a large law suit in Massachusetts concerning death from an explosion because a large amount of Propane got out and was delivered to customer which had no odorant. If you can't smell it you will not know if it is present. It took awhile before it was discovered, in the meantime their employees and customers were in danger.

icesailor

CO Urgent:

I was told by someome in the know that a company decided to get out of the service business rather than do installs and service themselves. They will try to spin off the service department to employees rather than spend the money to make every one safe. Their employees and their customers.

I showed my persosnal CO detector to one of them. It wasn't their lack of interest I detected, it was the feeling that they would like them, but management didn't want to pay for them.

When I had employees, I once was crawling under a house and had a nail go into my knee. It hurt. I went out and bought knee pads for ALL my employees. I told them they HAD to wear them. That was 25 years ago. I have worn them at all times for over 25 years. I don't have any employees today. I spend a lot of time walking on my knees. I wear shoes on my knees and they feel like pillows.