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New Boiler, Old Problems, Lots of Questions

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  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,322
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    Wet vs. dry and damage

    In a word, no.  Wet steam won't cause any more damage to building materials than dry steam will.  A significant leak (such as the one you had) will cause a tremendous amount of damage in a very short time with either one.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Julian Ku
    Julian Ku Member Posts: 43
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    Bottom line: Boiler Damage as a Result of Incorrect Near Boiler Piping

    Hi everyone, thanks again for all your help on this. Our bottom line question right now is whether the near boiler piping problems described above would likely lead to any serious damage to the boiler or our steam system. We realize it causes wet steam and leads to inefficiencies in the system. But is there any reason to think that the boiler will become permanently damaged, e.g. spring a leak or some other damage that will arise a few years down the road, as a result of the poor near boiler piping? Or that it will lead to more problems with our steam pipes and radiators or air vents? Thanks again.
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
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    Boiler Problems

    Hi- As to damage to the boiler, as I mentioned in an earlier post these boilers are also used for hot water heating and when used in a hot water system, operate at a much higher pressure so they are pretty robust  If you are still worried about this, I'd contact the manufacturer and have their rep take a look at your boiler and reassure you that the original warranty is still intact.



    As for future problems with the existing piping and radiators, this depends a lot on the condition of them before you replaced your boiler. This is sort of like putting a new replacement engine in an old car. It may work just fine or maybe the older parts, like transmission, being worn, have a problem taking the strain of new engine. Fortunately piping is much easier to inspect than old transmissions and the strains you are dealing with are far less. I'd have someone go over the old piping and inspect it as much as possible especially the wet return as the piping in this area is more likely to corrode. The use of the dresser type coupling shows that some "knuckle head" worked on your system in the past so I would be especially watchful for items like this that don't belong in a steam system.

    - Rod
  • Julian Ku
    Julian Ku Member Posts: 43
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    New Piping, New Air Vent, Same Old Problems

    Thanks to everyone's advice here, our contractor re-did our near boiler piping along the lines suggested on this thread. Pictures attached. But, after an all-day repiping project last Friday and installation of new Varivalve air vents today, the radiators continue to make noises and air vents continue to spit out water. How could all 11 air vents be defective? Could our heating problem continue to be a wet steam one? Any ideas? We and our contractor are pretty much at the end of our string.



    As I noted earlier in this thread, we had been hearing a boom noise from the boiler, after the repiping was done, my wife did hear the boom noise within 1 minute of the start of a heating cycle and after this whole heating cycle stopped. Strange.
  • Dave in QCA
    Dave in QCA Member Posts: 1,785
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    varivalve?

    Are your vents Heat Timer Varivalves?  If so, they are notorious for being noisy, spitting water, and are generally to aggressive for normal radiator venting.
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
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    Julian, Where are your main vents?

      I don't see them in any of your pictures.  Can you find them and show us a picture of them?  The main vents can be found by following the system riser along the ceiling of the basement, past all the risers to the radiators, just before the main drops down to the floor.  They will look like a silver bullet, or a copper can, or a copper can of tuna.
  • Julian Ku
    Julian Ku Member Posts: 43
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    Varivalve vents

    That is interesting about Varivalve vents. The contractor preferred Hoffmann valves and we had those before the repiping. But they have this loud clicking on and off sound every time air is pushed out and so the contractor suggested using Varivalve vents which we used before working with this contractor.
  • Julian Ku
    Julian Ku Member Posts: 43
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    Main vents

    We have two sets of risers going in different directions. (See pictures below). One riser leads only to four radiators, and so we have one main vent there. The other riser leads to the rest of the radiators in our house (eight), hence we have three main vents for that set of risers. Originally we only had one main vent on this second riser, but when our new boiler was installed, our contractor added two main vents. What impact do you think this might have?
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
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    I wasn't really on to anything

      I was just checking to see if you had some main vents. 
  • Steve_175
    Steve_175 Member Posts: 238
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    Main Venting

    The number of main vents should not be dictated by how many radiators are running of of the main pipe. Rather you need to measure how long each main is, times the size of the pipe and get enough vents to handle the volume of that main. Give us the measurements and we can let you know.



    Also because of all that new piping you need to have the boiler skimmed again. This will take a number of hours to thoroughly clean all the oil out of the water. Dirty oily water contributes greatly to wet steam and other problems.
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
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    Change your Vents!

    Hi Julian - In your case it's probably not a good idea to use Vari-valves. While they have their place they can also cause a lot of problems. Unlike the Hoffman 1A , the Vent-rite and the Gorton, they DO NOT have floats so they won't shut if water reaches them. They are also very aggressive valves with a high venting capacity. A Vari- Valve on its lowest setting (they don't turn off!) is about equal to a Hoffman1A medium setting. Venting your radiators too quickly can cause all sorts of problems. I would go back to using the Hoffman 1A s . The clicking you heard was probably due to the high pressure that your boiler was running at before.  If you hav old Hoffman 1A vents you may want to use new ones as high pressure can ruin them. Speaking of which at what pressure is your system running now?

    With all the work done on your piping you will have to skim the boiler probably several times.

    How is your boiler's waterline? If it is bouncing a lot and there is moisture on the onside of the sight glass you still have wet steam and will need to skim more. If you have a skim port already installed this is quite easy to do yourself. I've attached a good article on skimming that might be of help to you.  Dan, in his new book ,Greening Steam, suggests you "hot skim" by heating the water up and but then shut the burner off while you're  skimming as he feels the surface of the water is too disturbed with the burner on. I haven't tried this yet but it makes good sense. You may have to skim several times as more oil works it's way out of the system.  Just have patience and skim very, very slowly.  I collect about a 5 gal bucket in 2 hours so that gives you an idea of the rate your should skim.

    - Rod
  • Julian Ku
    Julian Ku Member Posts: 43
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    Jacobus Air Vents Opinions?

    HI, our contractor is now recommending we try Jacobus air vents to replace our varivalves. The other option is to go back to our Hoffman air vents. Does anyone have any experience or opinions on jacobus? Thanks!



    http://maid-o-mist.com/jacobus.html
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
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    Radiator Vents

    Jacobus radiator vents are similar to Gorton radiator vents however the float in the Jacobus is plastic where as the Gorton's is brass. The Jacobus literature mentions they have changeable vent orifices though in fact as far as I can tell, they won't sell you individual vents orifices so that's rather a red herring. Like the Gortons they do have a float, that shuts off the vent it when water reaches it, so that would be a great improvement over the Vari-Vents that don't have a float.



    A Hoffman 1A, with an adjustable orifice, covers the same range of Jacobus # 4 to # 6.

    I'm partial to adjustable vents and use either the Hoffman 1A or the Vent-rite.



    Another thing to keep in mind is that since the Jacobus (all models) use a changeable orifice but the same internal workings, you can drill out the orifice of a smaller vent to increase the vent size.

    - Rod
  • Julian Ku
    Julian Ku Member Posts: 43
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    New Vents, Same Problems, PSI Issue?

    We had new Hoffmann vents put in and our contractor performed a skim. And there is still sound. I don’t see spitting water, but the sound is loud and lasts THROUGHOUT the cycle. The sound is most noticeable on the second floor given that is where the bedrooms are (also, the setting is higher there at 3-4).

    Could it be a PSI issue? The contractor said our original PSI instrument was defective and put another one in a few weeks ago that is difficult to tell exactly what the number is given the range goes up to 30. A heating cycle was just on and the new PSI instrument arrow did not move the entire time I was there. I went upstairs to check the radiators and the system turned off. I went back down to the basement and the arrow was still below 0. Is this instrument defective? The contractor said that the PSI instrument arrow only moves at the end of the cycle but I could have sworn I have seen it move throughout a cycle. Today was the first time I checked the PSI since the repiping a week ago because I thought this was settled. But maybe not The supposedly defective one read 3.5 to 4.0. How do I know if a PSI instrument is functioning properly? How do I get to the bottom of what the true PSI is???

    In terms of vents, almost all of the new Hoffmann vents do not seem to be clicking on and off. Is that odd?

    My wife has been trying to play with the settings for a long, long time. There are 6 radiators (2 with TRV) on the first floor, 3 on the second floor, and 3 on the third floor. On the first floor, the non-TRV radiators are on a setting of 1 and the TRV radiators are on a setting of before the first dot between 1 and 2. The 3 radiators on the second floor are on a setting of 3-4. The 3 radiators on the third floor are on a setting of 5. This is to help make sure the upper floors get enough heat on those cold days.

    So, what is going on with the noise? How much noise is normal?
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,478
    edited February 2011
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    Pressure should be low

    The pressure should be low - 1.5PSI cutout and 0.5PSI cut in. That is the pressuretrol set at? If it's the PA404 should have the tab on the front of the case set to 0.5 (that's adjustable with the strew adjustment on top), The white dial inside should be set at 1.



    If it is a vaporstat then the setpoint would be set at 1.5PSI and the differential set to 1PSI (both adjustable with screws on the top of the case.



    Post a close up picture of the pressuretrol and or the vaporstat.



    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Julian Ku
    Julian Ku Member Posts: 43
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    Vaporstat and Pressuretrol settings

    For the Honeywell Vaporstat, the "Main" setting is at 1.5PSI and between 5-10 kPa and the "Diff." is at 7 kPa and 16 ozs in square (diff. is subtractive). For the Pressuretrol Cut-in, the PSI is set between the upper end of 2-8 range and around 0.45 kg/cm square. Does this sound right?
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,478
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    Sounds correct

    Those settings sound correct.



    The pressuretrol is acting as a backup to the vaporstat hence it's high settings. Does the pressure gauge read anything when it's steaming?



    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Julian Ku
    Julian Ku Member Posts: 43
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    Pressure gauge

    This is the PSI instrument? As I wrote earlier, the contractor said our original PSI instrument was defective and put another one in a few weeks ago that is difficult to tell exactly what the number is given the range goes up to 30. A heating cycle had been on and the new PSI instrument arrow did not move the entire time I was there. I went upstairs to check the radiators and the heating system turned off. I went back down to the basement and the arrow was still below 0. Is this instrument defective? The contractor said that the PSI instrument arrow only moves at the end of the cycle but I could have sworn I have seen it move throughout a cycle. Today was the first time I checked the PSI since the repiping a week ago because I thought this was settled. But maybe not. The supposedly defective one read 3.5 to 4.0. I am concerned that this could be the true PSI. How do I know if a PSI instrument is functioning properly? How do I get to the bottom of what the true PSI is???
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,478
    edited February 2011
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    Try this

    A 0-30 PSI gauge may not read anything on a heating cycle because they are not very good at the low end of the range. One thing that might work is to turn all your radiators off so the steam has no where to go.



    Turn all of your TRV's off and turn all the other radiator air vents upside down (turn them CCW). That should prevent any steam from entering the radiators. Just don't force anything, we don't want to snap anything off. You don't want to turn the input radiator valves off because sometimes old valves never turn back on.



    Turn up the thermostat a few degrees and watch that gauge, you should get a reading in 20 minutes or less; if the vaporatat is working right and that new gauge is good it should read 1.5 - 2PSI when the vaporstat shuts the system down but remember the gauges are not very good at the very low end.



    If you get no reading at all I don't think I would run that boiler for more than 30 minutes; I'd start to look for a clogged pigtail especially if the gauge is on the pigtail with the vaporstat. BTW is your waterline in the sight glass bouncing up and down a lot and does it look fairly clean?



    Then go upstairs and turn the TRV's back on and turn all the air valves CW so they sit vertically again. Al;so reset the thermostat to it's normal setting.



    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,111
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    Long posts no fixes?

    Wow this is a long post and you are still having promblems .#1 i would make sure that the pressuretroll and vaporstat are wired corretly.I would lower the original pressuretroll to 1 psi on the inside wheel and .5 on the outside screw setting then set the vaporstat to simalar settings ,The booming may be from a improperly set barometric damper or the burner may not be set up correctly .From the sounds of it it seems that this guy is not  the most well versed person to be doing steam.Putting the boiler on blocks to replecate the original water line is a good thing but seeing there is  not a huge cieling height i think i would have opted to make a false water line which would have giving alot more height for my boiler risers and drop header.With all the issues you have had from the get go i find it hard to believe in the over 20 years of  installing steam boilers i have never had all the issues that you have had on the install of a steam boiler and i will say i am no genius .Sorry you have had o many issues have you used the find a pro section on this site if not it may be worth it to have some one who know take a look you may be ahead of the game in the long run .Peae and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Julian Ku
    Julian Ku Member Posts: 43
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    where to buy a PSI gauge?

    Hi, can anyone recommend a place where I can find a vacuum PSI gauge? My contractor replaced the new 0-30 range PSI gauge to a 0-15 range one. But it is still not precise. Despite appropriate Vaporstat settings, the PSI gauge gave a reading of around 1.0 before shutting down during each mini-heating cycle.



    In addition, the contractor listened to the noise from the Hoffmann air vent in the master bedroom. That Hoffmann vent definitely did not shut down all the way before opening up again. There is just a lot of air being pushed out. And to me there is some gurgling noise as well. He will call Hoffmann to follow up about whether they vents are supposed to shut down and open up completely. Does anyone have an answer to this? (By the way, the main vents were hot to the touch at the beginning of the heating cycle.)



    We also did have water spitting from the kitchen radiator air vent during the start of each mini-cycle.



    So until I replace the PSI gauge with a very precise one, it seems like I cannot rule out the PSI is not too high (above 2.0). And then there is the air vent problems which at this point I am not sure is a separate issue from the PSI one. And then there is the kitchen radiator air vent spitting. If anyone have additional thoughts on any of this, I would greatly appreciate it.
  • Julian Ku
    Julian Ku Member Posts: 43
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    response

    The contractor said he blew out the pigtail when he installed the Vaporstat. The water does not seem to be jumping up and down violenting. It does move up and down between the one-third to two-third points. And the water is brown. Does that suggest something? Thanks!
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,322
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    You are required by code to have a 0-30 psi gauge

    you can add a 0-5 or 0-3 psi gauge but the 30 needs to be in place. The pro you have is missing something. I think the system trouble shooting needs taken back to step one and walked through slowly. Check the boiler sizing to the system sizing. Check the pitch of the steam piping. Make sure the water line is low enough to not shoot out into the mains.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,478
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    Clean up the boiler water

    To add to what Charlie said, that water should not be moving that much in the sight glass and it should be fairly clean. It might be time for a nice long skimming to clean up that boiler water. Dirty water (especially if it's a little oily) can cause all sorts of problems.



    It sounds like you have to find a good steam pro, it won't be cheap but you've gone  a long time without being able to resolve all these problems.



    You can add a 0-3PSI gauge but you have to have the original as well for insurance purposes.



    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Julian Ku
    Julian Ku Member Posts: 43
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    Main Vents Measurements

    Sorry, I didn't get a chance to post this information til now.



    We have two mains:



    The first main is about 440 inches long, and with pipes about 2 inches in diameter. We have one main vent on this one.



    The second main is about 750 inches long, with pipes about 2 inches in diameter. We have three main vents on this one.



    If anyone has some thoughts on whether this configuration is OK, we'd appreciate it.
  • Julian Ku
    Julian Ku Member Posts: 43
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    Main Vent Measurements

    Hi, I am posting this at the bottom of this thread in case folks haven't seen it. Thanks in advance for your opinions.



    Main Vents Measurements

    Sorry, I didn't get a chance to post this information til now.



    We have two mains:



    The first main is about 440 inches long, and with pipes about 2 inches in diameter. We have one main vent on this one.



    The second main is about 750 inches long, with pipes about 2 inches in diameter. We have three main vents on this one.



    If anyone has some thoughts on whether this configuration is OK, we'd appreciate it.
  • Steve_175
    Steve_175 Member Posts: 238
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    Venting

    One Gorton #2 would cover the first main.

    One Gorton #2 and one #1 gorton vent will handle the second main.
  • Julian Ku
    Julian Ku Member Posts: 43
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    Main Vent questions

    Hi, just to be clear, are you saying we have too many main vents, or that it is likely we have enough? Thanks.
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
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    Main Vents

    You can't really "over vent".  You can add too many vents for the piping to which the vents are attached. For example, a 1/2 inch pipe has the capacity to support 2 each Gorton #2 vents. You could add another Gorton #2 but the pipe is too small to use the potential of 3 Gorton #2 s so you'd have to go to a larger diameter pipe to increase the venting and benefit from the 3 Gorton #2s



     The main vents in the picture you posted earlier look like Hoffman 75s.

    Here's a comparison of the approximate venting capacity of common main vents

    3 each (almost 4) Gorton #1 = 1 each Gorton #2

    2 each Hoffman 75 = 1 each Gorton #2

    - Rod
  • Steve_175
    Steve_175 Member Posts: 238
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    Venting Options

    Just reread you whole thread and saw that you have had some new Hoffman 75's installed on you mains. They are good vents, just not as capacious as the Gorton #2. They basically vent at about half the capacity of the Gorton #2.

    With that in mind your 1st main could use one more Hoffman 75. This will be a little over vented but that is not a bad thing!

    Your second main seems to be adequately vented.



    does the water in the sight glass look clean? Do you see any water cascading down the sight glass when the boiler is firing?
  • Julian Ku
    Julian Ku Member Posts: 43
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    KEK and other things...

    Thanks much for everyone's advice. The contractor will be returning this afternoon and I have a list of requests for him. One question I do have is the contractor has been putting KEK treatment in after every skim (we have had four skimmings since the boiler installation in May). Is this ok or not? The Oilheating Magazine skimming article suggests cautious use of chemicals. (Also, it would be a bonus if no chemicals are needed since the the smell of these from the air vents is so strong.) Any comments will be appreciated!



    Here is what I have asked or will ask him to do.

    - To deal with the pressure. (1) Get and install a 0 - 3 range PSI gauge. Rod recommended a Wika Model 33020 available from the Gauge Store. This should settle once and for all what exactly the system PSI is. (2) Test setting the Vaporstat PSI to 1.0 from 1.5. The contractor said he did this before but there was a locking problem or something like that and he switched it back to 1.5 PSI

    - To deal with venting. (1) Install another Hoffmann 75 main vent. (2) Replace the 2 TRVs with the Hoffmann vents

    - To deal with dirty water problem. (1) Do a nice long skim, following the skimming instructions in the Oilheating article recommended above. Based on my conversation with the contractor today, it sounded like their skimming was quick. I told him I want the water in the water gauge to be clear and move very very little. (Right now, it is brown and this is after a total of 4 skimmings since the boiler installation in May. But perhaps it is brown because of the KEK treatment he uses after each skimming?) (2) I may ask him to hold off on a KEK treatment.



    One last thing. After the entire heating cycle has ended, there has been a series of random-timing banging? noise coming from either the pipe going up to one of the third-floor radiators. This is new. The only thing that has changed is a Hoffmann vent has replaced a Verivalve vent there. Any thoughts on what is going on here? Again, thanks in advance for everyone's help.
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