HW Convert or not on Trane Vapor?

vaporvac

I'll be short here as the post I just took an hour writing was

deleted!!!!!  I believe I have a Trane Vapor system as that's what the

original specs called for and observation seems to indicate. Can it be

made to work properly or should I consisder switching it out for a HW

mod con?  I have gas 500-630,000btu in a 3 story, 7200 sq ft house.

The current boiler is on its last legs.  What about HE steam and what

would be compatible with this system?  Horizontal or tall boiler?

Outdoor reset? Indirect DHW? Twin boiler as per the attached WM pdf?

Can I do a HW add-on and how do I plan for it.

Currently some rooms heat to 91 degrees, some radiators partially or

not at all while the open front hall struggles to maintain 64deg.

Horrendous hammering,clanging and hissing along with horrific gas

bills.



What should I do?  Any help would be appreciated.  Please find photos

and pdf attached.  Thanks.



CD

Charlie from wmass

It can be repaired

No reason to throw away a good vapour system.

vaporvac

Any further thoughts?

Thanks Charlie,

Any further thoughts based on the pictures?  Does it look like it is piped correctly?  If so, what could be causing all of these problems?  It's very confusing deciding what to do about a replacement.  Was anyone able to look at the pdf?  I found it quite interesting, but would like to hear real life experience based on these theories.

Colleen

nicholas bonham-carter

trane vapor

see if you can find the installation manual on line for that boiler and compare carefully the specifications for no. of risers, pipe sizes, header dia., and return/hartford loop[ piping. make a survey of your radiators, and see how closely the rating of the boiler matches the total of your radiation.

what is wrong with the present boiler? high efficiency steam is a system installed properly by someone who can read, and follow the installation instructions!!

generally these vapor systems are very even, quiet,  and economical; at lowwwwww pressures, controlled best with a vaporstat, and monitored with a good low-pressure gauge.

if you are thinking about hot water heat, plan on new pipes and radiators as well as the steam ratings for radiators is higher than hot water, so the rads may be too small.

the pressure in a 3-storey hot water system will be about 50 times higher than in a steam system.

keep it steam with gravity return, and give it a way to let the air out quickly. have you read the archived articles here on trane sytems?--nbc

p.s. use a good steam-rated thermostat, like a visionpro with a sensor in the coldest part of the house for quick response.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

HE Steam

Steam, especially the system you have, is inherently highly efficient.   Electrical usage is a tiny fraction of other systems, as the steam provides the heat and motive power to move the heat through the system  The problems you are describing are telling you that somethihng is very wrong.  That type of system is a perfect canidate for a modulating boiler with orifice plates metering steam to every radiator.  You could easily upgrade to room by room temperature control with that system. You could use staged boilers like those shown below.  It is also likely to be an excellent system for the use of condensing steam boilers now in development in smaller sizes.  Take a look around this site for a truly knowledgable steam specialist to  look over the system.  If you're in the midwest, give me a call.

Jamie Hall

Please...

Keep the Trane system!  You probably will need a new boiler; that shouldn't be a problem -- provided that it is properly sized and properly installed (you'd need this in any case -- hydronic or steam, by the way, and the cost is similar either way).  The properly properly above is critical, though; it will pay you -- both in money and comfort -- to find and hire someone who really does know what he (or she) is doing on this.  Not that it's hard; it just has to be done right.  Try the Find a Contractor on this site, and search by State -- or just mention where you are, and we'll probably be able to find someone.



While you're thinking about that... do the following!



The key to all vapour systems, Tranes included, is low pressure.  So that should be the first thing you should look at and check, and you can do that yourself.  On the boiler you should find a pressuretrol -- a square, usually blue grey box, with one or two cables coming out of it, attached to the boiler by a short, usually curled pipe (called a pigtail).  This controls the maximum pressure the boiler can create.  Can you take a picture of it and post that?  If you're up to it, on the face of it there is a calibrated slot -- the indicator in the slot must not be set higher than 1.5 or 2.  We will recommend that you add (and certainly have on the new boiler!) a vapourstat, which is a control which does the same thing, but at much lower pressures.  The Trane system, like the Hoffman, ran on a maximum pressure of 6 ounces.  OUNCES.  You MUST use a vapourstat to get down to that level!



While a Trane system won't be damaged by higher pressures (there were, in most cases, no traps as such), it won't work right, either, and I will go out on a limb here and state that if you get a vapourstat, and install it, and set it at 6 ounces per square inch cutout with a 5 ounce differential, most of the problems which you mention in your post will go away -- so try that first.



Having done that, we can get into venting (the original Trane systems used either of a couple of slightly exotic vent systems, which may need revision) and possible other work.



One thing to add, as sort of an afterthought -- the system may have been knuckleheaded at some point, although the radiator in your picture looks original, with an original Trane outlet elbow, so you may be in luck on that.



So...



Bottom line?  Courage!  Yes it can be made to work properly, no it won't be that hard to do, and you'll love it when it does!

Dave in QCA

much deferred and perhaps improper maintenance

It sounds like there are several things in your system that are not working correctly. 

Is the boiler on its last leg, or are you assuming that because the system is not working correctly.

I have an 8,400 sq ft residence that was carefully converted to apartments in 1928.  It has a vapor system that is a Dunham set up.  I have spent quite a bit of time working on all of the deferred maintenance, and getting the system tuned up.  It is wonderful heat and It costs less per sq ft that the hot water system I have in my own home.

Steam has a bad rapp partly because the boiler industry has been focussing on hot water/hydronic for a long time.  Very little steam being installed, so the industry has lost track of how well it really does function.  Also, the industry has a means of making a buck by talking about steam to hot water converions.  I have seen a couple of those, and neither one was a great success.  They weren't necessarily disaster, but the advantages that were supposed to be realized turned out to be myths in both cases, and great sums of money was spent.

My advice is focus on repairing and tuning the system you have.

Mike Kusiak_2

Header piped incorrectly?

It is kind of hard to tell from the photos, but it appears the takeoff for the steam main is not located at the right place on the header. Can you take a few more pictures from farther back, showing the connection to the main, and the connections on the other side of the boiler?

vaporvac

A little background

Thanks everyone for such detailed and focused replies.Since I can't

post from my own computer anyway, just thought I'd try to replicate my

original missive that disappeared.



Due to the above problems, not the least of which is the monthly bill,

I thought HW might be cheaper to run.  When we replaced the boiler

last time we just replaced the guts since it broke on Xmas eve and

there wasn't alot of time to consider options.  My installer was not

at all knowledgeable about steam so I just followed the prior owner's

intructions which were very nicely written on the actual boiler and

pipes by the original live-in maintenance man. This was about flushing

and refilling the boiler.  Nothing about starting it up to expel the

oxygen or Not filling it when hot.  OOOps.



The current boiler has holes in it around the water line and we've

taken out two sections which were totally shot. It does provide heat,

(much better now that we've lowered the pressure) but the pilot light

goes out when the sytem shuts down, which probably isn't too safe.  It

actually doesn't seem to take any longer to heat without the two

sections.



Since I had to replace the boiler anyway I called in the local expert

who verified that I was a canditate for HW given the two-pipe system

and type of radiator. (American Radiator, "Peerless" model) He had the

Trane Vapor manual, but said he had never seen a system like mine as

it didn't have any steam traps, and perhaps that was partially to

blame for the problems;  it was just put in incorrectly in the first

place.  While perplexing,  the apparent lack of traps would make it

cheaper to change over as there were no traps to remove.



He suggested a few contractors to give me a quote.  Only 2 of 6 did an

actual heat loss calculation or bother to measure the  radiators.

Although I had requested an estimate to replace the steam none

provided one. Nor did any  mention how a steam system could work

without traps.  I did think it odd and unlikely that the original

installer had taken some shortcut given the outstanding quality of

everything else in the house: top-notch and state -of-the-art for its

time and even ours. As  only the third owner ,I also doubted anyone

had radically changed anything. But, what did I know!



FF:  While trolling for info on the suggested Prestige TT Solo on this

sight I came across a post about Whistling Radiators after a HW

conversion from a Trane Vapor system.  Boy, did that get my attention!

I was sure that the original specs were for just such a system.

Apparently, the whistling was due to the orifices that Trane used in

such a sytem in lieu of traps and now had to be reamed out for the new

system to work. Depressing.  The quotes were breathtaking without this

new piece of bad news. I realized if the HW didn't work out there

would be no going back to steam.



So I had to review my interest in HW in the first place: comfort and

economy.  Given the installation costs and risk involved the economics

now seemed a bit iffy.  After researching the Vaporvac system in

general, I have become convinced it is probably at least as

comfortable and efficient  as HW and may not cost that much more to

run than a mod con which I doubt is condensing all the time anyway.

Plus, I'm an old-fashioned sort of person and have always liked the

elegant simplicity of steam.



Now to find the correct and correctly sized boiler and try to get

everything up and running here in Cincinnati. I will post more

pictures and give some specifics of the original specs.  Thanks for

explaining what a pigtail is.  I definitely have one. This site is the

bomb!



Colleen

P.S. Anyone look at the pdf, yet

Steamhead

Your local expert

must not be aware of the liability if something goes wrong with trying to convert that system.... and there are plenty of things that can.



Hot-water needs at least 10 times the pressure that Vapor does. If there are any weak points in the piping or radiators, you WILL have leaks.



And, the radiators might not be big enough to heat the house on hot-water. Even if they appear to be, they will need to run at higher temperatures most of the time, and a condensing boiler won't run at its advertised efficiency. So the fuel savings they tout won't materialize.



Your best bet is to repair your Trane system and put in a better boiler. We like the Smith G8 and Slant/Fin Intrepid series for gas-fired steam, using powered gas burners, as they offer better efficiency than atmospheric types which is what your Bryant appears to be.

Jamie Hall

I have looked at the .pdf...

Always interesting, those things!  And yes, there are advantages in terms of efficiency to using two smaller boilers rather than one big one, although I might size them a little differently from that bulletin.  Steam, however, has somewhat different requirements from hot water, and in my humble opinion, since hi-lo firing will probably be an option in the size range you are looking at, I'd be inclined to go that way instead, as it vastly simplifies the piping and control arrangements.



The Trane vapour system did use a rather special orifice arrangement located in the outlet elbow of each radiator (have you got the book "The Lost Art of Steam Heating"?  If not, you will need it sooner or later, and it's a good read -- available from the shop on this web site).  In fact, it is a dual orifice arrangement -- and totally incompatible with hot water.  If you were to go with hot water -- which I really truly don't recommend -- those elbows would have to be replaced; every single one of them.



That said, however, there was one potential maintenance problem with them: it is possible for one or the other (or both!) of the orifices in the elbow to get gunked up.  If that happens, the radiator in question either won't heat at all, or will heat very poorly.  The cure is simple: undo the elbow and clean out the orifices.  Shouldn't take more than a few minutes, assuming that the "undo" part goes smoothly!  That is NOT the first step in bringing your system up to operating properly, however!



The holes around the water line in your present boiler (thank you for taking the time to repost that) are costing you money.  Quite likely, in fact, an astonishing amount of money.  Oddly, however, in terms of system operation they probably aren't making much difference, if only because they will keep the pressure down!  They do indicate, though, that you need a new boiler.



I haven't seen your building.  However, the building I superintend isn't all that much smaller (about 6,500 square feet, three stories) but my boiler is a good deal smaller (northwestern Connecticut, design day is -10 F).  I wouldn't be at all surprised if your present boiler is wildly oversized.  The proper way to size a steam boiler is to add up the "EDR" of all the radiators in the building, and size the boiler based on that.  Any other approach is doomed.  This isn't all that hard; there are references on this site and elsewhere which will give you the approximate EDR of each radiator, which is close enough.  A properly sized boiler will be significantly less expensive to run than one which is oversized.



So... what we are considering here is a nice new boiler, with hi-lo firing if available, controlled by a vapourstat, with the near boiler piping properly done.  That should get rid of most, if not all, of the banging and hammering unless pipes have sagged somewhere (possible)(if they have, it's usually not much of a hassle to rehang them with the correct slopes).  Then find out how the radiators are doing.



I'm very tempted to suggest getting a vapourstat for the existing boiler -- but I won't.  In view of the leaks and the problem with the pilot light, you really should get that old boiler replaced as soon as is reasonable for you.



There is a seriously good expert who frequents this site by the name of Gerry Gill.  He is near Cleveland, which is a bit of a haul from you, but I would suggest getting in touch with him (he can be found in the Find a Contractor section, look under the State -- Ohio); if he doesn't work that far away, he may well know someone whom he could recommend who does work in your area.



I hope all this helps some...

vaporvac

More Pictures

A few more pictures:



Sorry for the angles, but it's hard to get a cutaway with the big coal

burner next to the gas one.  The gas boiler seems to have two steam

supply pipes coming from each section of the boiler.  There are two

sections each with its own pilot light.  There is a pressure gauge

with the pigtail and now I can see the differntial setting on it that

I'd never noticed before. Since I don't have a Vaporstat yet can I

change something on this?  What exactly am I looking at?  Does it have

or need a Hartford loop or dropped header?  Enquiring minds want to

know!



The original specs called for a "complete heating apparatus of the

Trane Vapor system. (This must have been one of the first in 1914?) It

called for a Bryant tubular boiler with positive fuel control Governor

and equipped with Trane "specialties", including a Trane vapor

regulator and receiver with air exhast valve. All Radiators to be AR

Peerless and conneted with Trane graduated radiator valves at the top

of radiators and reurn fitting at bottom.  All piping to be conealed

in partitions and covered with "best air cell covering"? Does it look

like I still have any of this?

Currently the inlet valves and fittings seem to be a mish-mash of

Trane, Crane, Hoffman Specialties, Dunham and original Detroit! Some

have hanles and other the circular-type knob.The returns all seem the

same with no visible traps.

Thanks in advance for any more info.

Colleen

Jamie Hall

Good heavens!

Antiques road show time.  I'm not even going to begin to suggest doing anything to that pressure controller.  When you get that nice new boiler, make sure it does have a vapourstat (set right!) and you'll be good to go.



The valves are probably all the sort which can be adjusted; certainly the Trane, Dunahm, and Hoffman are.  This will make balancing the system much simpler -- when you get that nice new boiler, you will be able to get everything beautifully even (but see my previous remarks on maybe having to clean an orifice or two...)(it may be a bit fiddley to do this, but it isn't hard).



I don't see any of the original insulation -- which is, perhaps, just as well as it may have contained asbestos.  If there is any, for instance in the walls, just leave it alone.  It's safe enough, provided no one disturbs it.

vaporvac

Steam boiler piping schematic

See attached for system schematic either as word file or excell.

Mike Kusiak_2

Equalizer?

I still can't seem to find any equalizer attached to the header. Appears that both steam outlets of the boiler connect to a header, but no equalizer connecting the header to the return? Might explain all the banging and water hammer.

vaporvac

Keeping the Trane> now what?

Happy New Year!  Just say no to conversion!  What do I do now to ensure the new boiler is compatible? What are the best for efficiency, etc.?    What about the chimney?  I'm attaching a pdf of the near boiler piping to the best of my knowledge.  I'm looking for any and all suggestions, but really want to try to keep the vacuum system.  It was designed for GAS, not Coal so I see no reason to change it.  I just want to know what to do to get it working as well as it can. Thanks all for you input.



Colleen

clammy

keep that trane a rolling

As everybody has stated don't convert you most likely will have alot more issues then you think,just about every steam system especially a vapor system like yours just needs some one knowledgeable to get it back to it original operating efficiency ,If the companies giving you quotes want to convert it it is probalby because they are not versed in steam .When these systems are operating properly they are some of the best stlye systems around ,As other have stated over sized headers and a drop header with a vaporstat and attention to the original watre line and piping are the keys to bringing a system like yours bak to it's old glory and if you do convert make sure that they will cover any future issues that will occur and they usually do i personally would never convert any 2 pipe steam to hot water there are way to many variables and sooner then later that old steam piping will leak under the much higher system pressure peae and good luck clammy

vaporvac

Near boiler piping pdf schematic

I hope this takes.  Before investigating a new boiler I'd like to see what's causing the clanging with the current one.  Have set the pressures low and that has resolved the radiator hissing issues, but the band and clang persist. Thanks.

Colleen

vaporvac

pdf