Steam Radiator availability

Tim_75

We all "know"

that "furnasties" provide such "scorched" air in heating systems that no mold could ever survive, right?



I would not characterize that article as "fairly robust". It is rather wordy, but very simplistic.



If dealing with mold, you would be talking about a poor cooling system. That is a whole other can of worms, but we can discuss if you'd like.

Steamhead

Transmission losses and increased infiltration

are what you haven't considered. Try reading these:



http://oikos.com/esb/28/duct_losses.html



http://oikos.com/esb/44/forcedair.html



There are more such articles out there but these are the two I've bookmarked. You can trumpet your 90%+ furnasties all you want, but if your ducts are losing 20% of what goes into them, and the rooms are being pressurized and depressurized every time the fan starts, the system as a whole will be quite wasteful. And it's far easier to insulate pipes effectively than it is to try to seal ducts effectively. The latter will tend to expand and contract, and the sealing will deteriorate.



Return ducts don't get air that is scorched, so this is where we see many of those nasty primordial life forms. Try researching "sick building syndrome" to learn more about this.



Until you've put yours in better shape, you really can't use it to say that a steam system in proper condition can't be efficient.



90%+ boiler efficiency IS possible on steam. It has been done, but not here because American boiler manufacturers seem to be too busy trying to imitate European product offerings. The first one to come out with such a boiler will be able to sell them right off the truck.



Too late to retract your "lies" postings. We've all seen them, and drawn our conclusions.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Destruction and Fire Safety.....

I believe Steamhead has already brought up a number of the efficiency issues with most forced air systems   I skimmed these articles some time ago and their findings agree with tests conducted by other agencies, such as the US Dept of Energy.     I imagine that many contractors have witnessed the filth in the returns of many systems. Dander, dust mites, mold spores, and other such lovelies live or reside in most duct work. 

A quality, properly installed forced air system requires the use of metal duct work all the way from the furnace to the vents in the spaces.  I don't know how this duct work could be run in existing walls without demolition of the finished surfaces.  The use of metal duct work helps reduce the flame spread issues that occur when systems are installed that just use open stud bays for supplies or returns.  However, the duct work system still can effectively carry smoke and other dangerous air born compounds from one space in a home to others by simply gravity movement of air (no fan required).  This is why forced air systems in commercial structures require fire dampers at fire separations

Issues regarding fire spread are much greater with many typical forced air installations because joist bays are panned to create plenums, the plates at the bottom and /or tops of wall cavities are cut out to create plenums connected to the joist bay plenums for airflow. Then vents openings are cut into these plenums from the rooms served.  The drywall or plaster on each side of a stud wall gives the wall its fire separating ability. If you cut through this finish to install a vent, you have now greatly reduced the fire rating of the wall.

In addition, you are now exposing the structure directly to flame and the fire can easily travel through these plenums into floor and ceiling structures and spread rapidly to other parts of the structure.   Once the fire gets into the floor and wall structures,  the time period before the structure collapses will be greatly shortened.

I suspect that in addition to this gross spread of flame, the numerous small openings in a duct work system also contribute to flame spread,  so an all metal duct work system is definitely better, but still likely to be problematic even when only considering flame spread, not asphyxiation of occupants.

While steam piping penetrations of floor and wall assemblies can also spread fire, these smaller openings are much more  easily addressed with proper fire caulking.  Flame spread issues with duct work require not only the fire caulking of duct work penetrations, but also fire caulking the duct work itself and the installation of fire dampers...not something I have ever seen in residential work and for that matter commercial work.

These are some of the concerns I have with the safety of ducted systems.

Also, I would suspect that your 500,000 btu/hr boiler for your vapor system is grossly oversized.  IIRC you are heating about 3,000 sq ft.  I have a vapor system in a 9000 sq ft home that only fires at 450,000 btu/hr.  It also keeps about another 2000 sq ft at about 55 to 60F in the coldest weather due to transfer of heat through walls and ceilings.  The structure has enormous leaded glass steel casement windows and patio doors with no weatherstripping or storms, is all masonry construction and has poor attic insulation.  The highest fuel bills are about $700.00 midwinter.  You're probably losing alot of money on a poorly operating steam system.  It likely some simply upgrades or dhcnges may help a lot.

Tim_75

No retraction

IF we are to compare a forced air system with 20% duct leakage, then we must compare that very poor system to an equally poor system. One with uninsulated pipes, for instance. To compare a well done forced air system to a well done steam system is something Iv'e never seen done. Certainly not here. To compare best to worst, from either point of view, is disingenuous. I designed and installed the forced air system in my home. The duct leakage is on the order of 5% (In my testing, I could not acoount for less than 100 cfm in a 1750 cfm system) and all of the duct sealant is uncompromised after 15 years of service. Duct leakage in the conditioned envelope is not a loss, just as heat loss from pipes withing the heated space is not an actual loss.



I am very well aquanted with the "sick building syndrome" and can assure you that it is primarily issues related to ventilation and humidity control. Subjects beyond the realm of heating only, non-air systems.



Return air ducts contain air from the living space. IF your living space is filthy and full of "primordial" life, then your duct will be, too.



To state that a steam system is more efficient that a forced air system, comparing like quality to like quality is a misstatement.



Why not extol the real benefits and leave the marginal stuff to the hacks and used car salesmen? Steam (and hot water) systems are awesome heating systems for many reasons. I cannot and do not dispute that. Never did, never will. Exaggeration and missinformation has no place in your profession. Leave it out.

Tim_75

Facts are

that there are many very poorly installed forced air systems. There are also many poorly installed (and sized) steam systems and hot water systems and chilled water systems, for that matter.



"Dander, dust mites, mold spores, and other such lovelies live or reside in most duct work." These things exist throughout your house right now. Mine, too. Both the ones with ducts and the one without. Ductwork obeys the laws of physics, in that it can neither create nor destroy matter.



You mentioned panned joists. A bad practice, in my professional opinion. As I pointed out in another post, if you want to compare the worst features of one type of system to the better features (i.e proper fire caulking, not a feature I've ever seen in a residential installation, though it may exist) of another type of system, the comparison is invalid.



There are no fire rated separations in a single family home of any consequence. The usual exception is between a garage and a living space. Two layers of 5/8" GWB on each side of a stud wall will provide an 1-1/2" rated assembly. A standard gauge sheetmetal duct has a 1 hour fire resistance rating, twice that of standard construction wood frame and GWB wall systems. You seem unaware of building fire safety parctices in the construction trade, building design and life safety requirements. I have made a living for decades working with such issues.



"Once the fire gets into the floor and wall structures,  the time period before the structure collapses will be greatly shortened." There is no evidence to support this. I won't use the language I used previously, but this is not reality.



The steam system I own is grossly oversized. Is it the only one? Not too likely. The installer compromised the stone foundation in many places in the structure as well. Do I associate this hackery with every steam system in service? No. It is what it is. It is a poor version of a steam system. Should I use this as my basis to compare all steam systems to forced air systems? That would not be fair, would it? You and other professional, knowledge people here would jump all over such an attemp. And rightly, so, but, you are doing the equivalent. Stating (in my opinion, overstating) the worst of forced air systems and installation parctices and then contrasting that to a well done steam system. You assume the system the poster mentions was being considered for replacement was a well done one. SteamHead assumes that whomever installs the HP system is incapable of doing it correctly (it would never be comfortable). Correctly selected and installed systems are comfortable and efficient. That applies to forced air systems and steam systems. Like for like, a steam system is not more energy efficient that a forced air system.



How do you cool that 9000 sq palace? Window units? Ductless split systems?

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Some agreement......

We both agree that comparing the worst of one system to the best of another is not appropriate. That is why just comparing your steam system to a hot air system with a high efficiency furnace is not appropriate either ( not sure of the quality of the ductwork).  The problem I have been seeing, and it may be just locally, is that there are almost no quality forced air systems being installed.  Forced air seems to be mainly driven by price and all else goes by the wayside.  Flex duct, panned joists, imbalanced supplies and returns, etc. have become the norm.   It seems that nearly all older systems, no matter what type, were built to higher standards.  That's why, in most cases, it is probably better to maintain an existing system than to replace it with new.

The problem with debris in the ductwork is that it cannot be easily cleaned and removed.  Those in living spaces can.

When looking at building safety, I prefer to look beyond just code minimums. I am quite aware that there are little safety standards regarding fire seperation in residential construction (except garages) in the past, however things like firecaulking are beginning to be required as codes are improved.   In addition, fire rated ceilings in basements ( and upper floors, IIRC)  have been required for quite some time for many federal home loan programs.  While I am rusty on the code specifics, having spent 6 years at the IIT School of Architecture and having been in the building fields since I was 5 did teach me a few things about construction, structural, electrical and mechanical engineering.

I am not sure how you believe that a typical 2 x frame construction of any type would not be subject to quicker failure when the supporting members are exposed to fire more rapidly.  Timber frame construction has an inherent ability to resist failure due to fire, but not narrower 2 x construction.

Maybe this is a simple case of agree to disagree.

Tim_75

So if we agree

that using a poor version of the "contrasting system", to make our prefered choice look more favorable is somewhat deceptive and/or unfair, then we have a basis to continue this discussion. BTW, the ducted system in my rental property is a poor example of a forced air system, in my opnion, as well. Certainly not a sterling example of tradesmanship quality. This system does leak on the order of 20%, is laid out poorly and has been neglected for years (I bought this property last summer).



Debris in the ductwork is not a real concern for anyone except those would exploit it for their own profit. Dust, at last check is not toxic or harmful (to healthy humans) in any way, but merely unsightly.



I am fire rating (and soundproofing) the ceiling/floor between units in my property, but not because of a Code. I am doing for the same reason I am re-wiring the building to current standards and that is because I refuse to allow people to live in an unsafe building under my control.



You mentioned total collapse of the structure would occur significantly quicker due to the installation of ductwork. I disagree that a few plate penetrations would hasten that result in the event of a fire with the severity capable of causing the collapse. In my experience, which is not "rusty" in any way, I have never heard that concern voiced by building professionals, fire professionals or code officals. I find it difficult to believe this is a real concern that has eluded me for thirty years, though not impossible. I agree that members directly exposed to fire would fail quicker, no one would disagree with that. I don't think that is the issue. Compared to practices like baloon framing, a piece of sheet metal duct in a wall cavity in insignifcant. As far as smoke speading thoughout a house, the ductwork effects is immaterial. You have to know making that claim is a stretch.



Like I told the other fellow, I think steam heating systems are awesome systems. No need to resort to low level tactics to get that point out, is there? That is my real point. Stick to the facts. They are enough.

Steamhead

Another issue with ducted systems

is that if the furnasty's heat exchanger cracks, it can let combustion products get into the ducts and blow them through the house. We'd probably hear about this much more if the medical community did a better job of diagnosing CO poisoning. This can't happen with a water-based system, even if it's hydro-air, because you have the water (or steam) forming a barrier between the CO and the occupants.



So it follows that if a scorched-air system has a bad heat exchanger, it would be worse than a steam system with a bad heat exchanger. The latter would leak water or steam, rather than flue gases.



BP, those hacked-in scorched-air systems are all over. You're right, it's just a race to the bottom and that's why our company doesn't bother with it. We only do the kind of work we can put our name on.

Jean-David Beyer

if a scorched-air system has a bad heat exchanger,

My Quaker meetinghouse has two Rheem forced hot air furnaces. They replace some old Comfortmaker ones whose heat exchangers were leaking.



Now those Comfortmakers were pretty crappy to begin with. One problem is that they blew gas and air into some steel tubes with slots on top. The gas was lit by a hot wire ignitor. The heat exchanger was above that. The whole thing was sealed and pressurized with a blower. The heat exchanger was some stamped steel with big dimples and it was under pressure too. So when the heat exchangers cracked, the pressure blew combustion products into the building.



The Rheem furnaces seem much better in this regard. It  has 5 tubes around an inch in diameter and burning gas & air mixture is sent into those tubes. That part of the system is not pressurized. Those 5 tubes curve up near the back of the furnace into a manifold, from which at least 20 smaller tubes curve back and forth until near the top of the furnace, where they are gathered together in the exhaust manifold. There, a blower sucks the combustion products out and blows them up the chimney. The suction gets the fire at the bottom to go through the tubes. So if those tubes crack, the suction will pull air into the heat exchanger instead of leaking combustion products out of it. This is not completely fool-proof, but it is much better, it seems to me, to have a partial vacuum in the heat exchanger on the fire side than pressure.

Steamhead

Until

the draft fan quits, that is. 

Jean-David Beyer

Until the draft fan quits ...

I have had that happen.



1.) First, it howls, because the bearings wear out. Gives you lots of notice.



2.) You should be OK as long as the draft proving sensor does not fail at the same time.



The thing I would worry about is if the heat exchanger has bad welds and the big pipes fall off the first manifold, The resistance of the second part of the heat exchanger might be high enough to satisfy the draft proving switch, and all the combustion products would go into the building.



When the first heat exchangers started leaking, we could tell from the funny behavior of the flames. And the building was so leaky that the CO did not seem to accumulate all that much. Now we are spending a fortune to restore the almost 200 year old building, and leaks are getting sealed. Who knows, Some day we may be able to heat it up to 68F on cold days. When it is very cold around here, 65F is about all it will do. But the better the sealing, the more important it is to have no leaks in the heat exchanger.



I like hot water heat, but the way we use the building (off many days of the week), it would not make sense to use hot water in it. Half the building has no plumbing in it at all, and we let it get down to 42F when the building is not in use. When it is very cold, it takes 8  hours or so to get it up to 65F. Right now , we have two 125,000 BTU/hour furnaces, one for each half of the building. Not quite enough in its present condition, but it may be enough when we get some of the leaks fixed. We don't need IR thermometer to find our worst leaks, you can see the gaps between the doors, and feel the air through the single pane windows.



I had not thought of steam, but that would not freeze. Maybe the boiler would, but a suitable aquastat could prevent that. The building originally had 3 pot bellied stoves. I do not know if they were wood or coal. The historical commission might not let us put radiators in. Do they make radiant panels for walls for steem lie they do for hot water? But we have no money for that anyway. If the money tree bloomed, I would have to find a highly qualified steam boiler pro here in central N.J. There might be one.

Steamhead

Look at these

http://www.steamradiators.com/



There are plenty of steam pros in Jersey- try the Find a Contractor page of this site.

Alan Welch

Steam radiators

I have been trying to sell some ornate steam radiators for almost a year on craigslist  Boston but there is very little demand.  Sold a couple 4 section but no interest in the rest I hate to scrap them , but  at this point in time I think the supply far outweighs the demand and I will probably sell for scrap metal prices.

Steve_175

Contact Joel

He might be interested.



http://www.radicalradiator.com/

Mad Dog_2

If you were willing to take a road trip.......

I can't imagine a greater selection than A-1 radiator in Massachucetts....truly unbelievable.  That's where I got the special ones for my house.  Mad Dog

Tim_75

I agree

that what you say can happen, and has happened. There are many more poor examples of forced air systems than hydronic systems. By far.

masterskip

For Sale Steam Radiators

Hello I have 3 of the  very old ""Victorian Ornatte Steam Radiators" FOR SALE I removed them from an 100+ yr old Victorian house in Knoxvillle, Tn a few years ago, been hauling them from place to place I decided I will never use  them but hate to see such great pieces of history go to junk yard. They are not pretty now but they could be with a bit of work & paint. Very ornate, and small, perfect for a bathroom or small room if your interested call me  it's quicker tham email ....

.

2 of them measure 19 inch W  x 21 inch H ..x 3 Inch deep

1 measures ......... 16 inch W x 27 inch  H x 5 9nch  Deep                              ******************due to weight will ship FedEx or  DHL****************

 

picture  don't do it justice ..  I have 3 radiators for sale  buy one or all  make me an OFFER my cell phone 813-714-3116 call me if  no answer please  leave a message

 Thanks

Skip

Steamhead

Can you

post pics of the other two?



Edit- there they are. These aren't ornate, they're the later "small-tube" style. Still very useful. If you can't find someone closer, I might be interested- maybe we could meet somewhere along I-81.