Steam Radiator availability

Tim_75

Is there a good place to find vintage radiators for sale? Old radiators of any use to professionals? I see several makers/sellers of new products but very few. Is there simply not much demand any more?

crash2009

Due to the weight

and shipping costs Tim, the most economical way is to find them as close to where you are as possible.  Where are you?

Dave in QCA

Radiators for sale

you can search on ebay or craigslist.com   On ebay, search for cast iron radiator, or steam radiator.   There are always a lot on these sites.  You can check to see if they are near you.

Johnny13

Craigslist

I need a couple/three radiators myself, so I have a craigslist search in place that sends me a link every time steam or radiator is mentioned on the Chicago site. There is some guy who is looking for a 7,8, or 9 fin radiator, who is willing to pay $50 for it. He posts every freaking day, and I can't see him ever finding someone willing to give him what he wants. It is making me crazy, cause I keep having to check his listing to make sure I am not missing out on something I would be interested in.



Better than the auto part hits I suppose.

Tim_75

My dilema

I searched the sites close to my location (Rockford) and found nothing. I'm about 90 miles from Chicago. I have 14 low rise units (about 14" high) and a few (4 of various sizes) taller ones, maybe 30" high or so, that I would be happy to part with.

I bought an old duplex that has steam heat, an old failing boiler and missing and mismatched radiators. I was going to have the system tuned up and kept in service, but my local steam expert contractor advised that the boiler is past its useful life. Economically, to continue with this steam system and add a separate duct system for AC (which is part of the rehab plan) is not viable.

Tim_75

Location

I'm in (or my property is in) Rockford, IL.

Dave in QCA

Pictures?

Is it possible to post any pictures of your radiators?  Are the short radiators cast iron, or are they a fin tube convector with a steel jacket and fins inside?

nicholas bonham-carter

looking for old radiators

what's wrong with your present boiler? "old and failing" may simply mean "badly maintained", or "in need of correction".

here in omaha, i know of at least one steam/hydronics company which keeps a few spare radiators around for clients to purchase, so i am surprised that there seems to be no equivalent in your area. have you contacted the scrap-yards? the promise of a finder's fee to one of the employees might yield more than you can handle!

maybe it would be possible to assemble one from steel pipe. you need a lot of unions i imagine because they would need to be connected at the top, and bottom. copper would not have the thermal mass needed.

what about mini-splits for your a/c?--nbc

Tim_75

Pictures

I can post pics soon. Don't have any now. I'll have to swing by tonight and tajke some, post them tomorrow.

They are cast iron sectional radiators, not fin-tube convcectors. One, for instance is 37-1/2" long, 12" deep and 11" not counting the taller end sections which raise the unit about 2" above the floor. This one has 13 middle sections and two end sectioons. This is a two pipe system.

Tim_75

The boiler

has been poorly maintained, to the extreme. I have seen and evaluated many very old and poorly maintained systems in the past and frankly, I am amazed this one operates at all.

To tune up the system (repair/replace the vents, busted control valves) and upgrade the controls (the LWCO is rusted out, vapor stat is "erratic" and automatic feed/level control is seized up and bypassed) and make the necessary immediate repairs (the lagging covers are mostly rusted and falling off, the firebox main door is partially broken, and some of the cast iron sections "fins" or something are broken and lying in the fire box) will not be inexpensive. I''m willing to pay to do it right, that's not the issue.

I am faced with options: pay a professional to do the right work and make this system function as designed/intended, continue to pay for heat for both units and deal with it, add AC in some half baked fashion (i.e diuctless splits, a poor option) or pay for a well done central system  like a hi velocity or standard ducted central system.

Or replace the current system with individual HVAC systems for each unit, save the costs of resurecting the old system, repairs, replacements, etc., let the tenants control and pay for their own heating bills and add AC. The cost of the two options are similar, not counting sale of the radiators, IF no further repairs to boiler are required in the next few years.

nicholas bonham-carter

bringing the dead back to life

post some pictures of it in the ugly systems department, and perhaps you will have the reward money towards a new boiler.

you will probably want to fix that lwco, and vaporstat, [which both could then be used on the new boiler in the future]. that will give you better function until the spring when it will be easier to replace.

get rid of the auto-feed and go with gravity, leaving provision for the future boiler.

what's wrong with mini-split a/c?--nbc

Tim_75

mini-splits

Personally, I don't like them for many reasons. For example, If I have a three BR apartment that requires 2.5 tons to cool (which exactly describes the top floor of my duplex), I have to buy, pipe, wire, charge/fill and drain at least three separate units just to cover the bedrooms. Thats $3000 plus there would be three ACCUs to locate mount and wire and three (IMO) ugly wall mounted evaporator/fan units. All that and I have minimal (inadequate) air filtration, limited dehumidification, no ventilation and I haven't covered the kitchen, dining room or the living room. IF Ibuy a nice multi-zone unit, the cost increases by 40 to 50% with no real improvement in performance. Understand that designing and selling air and chilled water based HVAC systems is my current profession and I know it well. I know hot water systems better than steam, but I am no mechanic.

jpf321

why

is ductless mini split a poor option?

Tim_75

Ductless splits

See the answer below. It is somewhat ironic that the guys who love and understand and promote the central steam heating systems, have the complete opposite understanding of air conditioning. Mini-splits are to a real central AC system, as electric wall heaters are to a steam heating system. Make sense?

jpf321

i thought I did pretty well installing....

a 4-zone LG Artcool system with nice sleek looking inside units. running the linesets and drips in a 1920's 2-course brick house is a much better prospect than trying to place ducts in the structure. I lost only a small footprint hidden in my corner behind a bush (having provided proper equipement clearances of course) .. the technician charged me a reasonable price to Nitrogen test the line, vacuum the system and charge the neeeded "difference" because of a few longer than factory charged lines. I installed all the units, lines and electric myself with the help of my brother-in-law in a single day (first time installers take longer). I purchase the equipment tax and freight free from http://www.acwholesalers.com/Ductless_Heat_Pump_air_conditioner_LG_mini_split_p/12828.htm and sourced the linesets and drip tubing locally. And I did it all for about 50% cheaper than the local pros for the same job were going to charge. And I have backup/boost  "nighttime and morning" heat available at very cheap off-peak rates because I got the heat-pump AC units. This Spring I intend to do the same (but 3-zone) on the other half of the house. Because of the sleek style of the inside units, I can easily place custom color matched self-adhesive vinyl on them to match any room decor.



On the contrary, I consider the mutli-zone units as equivalent to a central boiler with inside units as the radiators with the small profile linesets+electrical+drip as my pipes rather than bulky, difficult to install in a 1920's plaster house, ducts as my pipes ductwork. I'd much rather spend my time makeing one "wire-pull" of the linesets+drip+control wire (as we did) than ripping open plaster walls and ceilings and mounting equipment strewn about the attic and basement while also losing valueable NYC storage space in those areas.



I'm sure you are much more familiar with cooling system pro's and con's ... I'm only trying to explain why I went with this direction and why I'm very happy to have done so. Considering I was running window-shakers previously .. now window shakers can certainly be compared to plug-in baseboard electric heater. But I don't think it's far to compare a multi-zoned split system as a plugin electric baseboard.

Tim_75

Sounds like

you installed a very nice system.



I know that pricing discussions are discouraged here, but as a rule of thumb, I can buy and install a conventional forced air heating (94% furnace) and cooling (cased coil, line set, 13 SEER R-410a  condenser) system for $1300/ton (w/o heat, that drops to around $950/ton.) with duct and registers. Thats my cost and my labor. I don't think you can come within 40% of that with a multizone ductless system on the low end and certainly not with a nicer system like the LG. But then I don't use or sell those, so I could be off the mark.



You have 4 evaporators and 4 linesets, routed how? Inside or outside?



I don't prefer them for all of the reasons I listed. Even if the costs were the same, where I live and work and own property, dehumidification is as important as sensible cooling. Ductless evaporators are not as good at dehumidifying a house as conventional systems are. I have the access to run ducts, so that is not a significant concern. Dehumidification, air filtration, first cost and ventilation all are very important to me.

Charlie from wmass

I can hire an electrician

To install electric baseboard heat for less than I can buy a real hydronic heating system for. You get the comfort you are willing to pay for. But to each their own. Sell used radiators is a roll of the dice. When you have a bunch they sell for cheap. if you need just one they are expensive.

jpf321

linesets routed ...

inside .. on this particular half of the house, the linesets were easily routed through a space which just happened to be perfect from basement to 3rd floor .. it actually shares the run with a steam pipe, but they are not in very close proximity.



on the 2nd half of the house next Spring, I think I'm going to have to route them outside .. but I'm still mulling it over.

Tim_75

Cost and comfort

are but only two of the factors going into the consideration. You could hire an electrician to install electric baseboard heat for much less than a real hydronic system and even less than a fake hydronic system. Though I'm sure only true professionals can tell the difference. It also would cost less than gas forced air system, too. Both real and otherwise. While electric baseboard heat is inexpensive to install, and does actually provide a good level of comfort, in most parts of the US is cost prohibitive to operate.



If this were a single family home or if it were my residence, the steam system would stay and be attended to properly. Retaining the current single zone, poorly maintained system, taking all factors into account, does not make business sense.

"Its not personal, its just business."

Dave in QCA

line sets on interior wall cavities

Were have a hot water cast iron heat system.  Installed to AC units, one with air handler in the basement for the 1st floor, and a second unit with the air handler in the attic for the second floor.  Line set was run up to the attic through an interior wall cavity.  Ducts were arranged so that little space was lost.  Systems work great.  Zoning between 1st and 2nd floor works great.  Installed one supply in each room, single return centrally located for each.  Very quiet, great performance!   And no visible piping on the exterior.  I know that is not always possible.

Mark N

Hydronic

Tim



What is the difference between a real and fake hydronic system? I though hydronic heating is any system that uses water to transfer heat.

Tim_75

Real vs. ?

You'd have to ask Charlie. He made reference to a "real" hyronic system. I was just being sarcastic. Sorry, my bad.



You understand correctly the definition of a hydronic system.

jpf321

gorgeous house...

lovely house Dave...thanks for sharing! the curved windows with the white accents really add character!

Dave in QCA

Still a lot of restoration to be done...

Thanks for the compliments!

One of the great things about the Quad Cities, is that real estate is very affordable.  One of the bad things, is that real estate prices are too low!  HA!



You would probably be shocked to know just how low.  I would guess that if you estimated that value where your are located, then took 10%, that is what it would sell for here.



There is still a lot of restoration to do - We have lots of aluminum to remove on the overhangs, and then wood repair and replacement of the missing gable ornaments.  

Here is a picture from 1901.

World Plumber

Scrap yard

Have you checked with your local Scrap yard. We get a lot of them from there. You need to look them over good for cracks from handling before you take them home. You may need to stop by a couple of times to find what you need. Other wise ask around some contractors try to save them if they have a place to store them.

crash2009

Tim, Have you ever tried

Urban Remains in Chicago?  I looked through their website a bit today but they don't list radiators.  They do have everything else though.

http://urbanremainschicago.com/

phone: 312.492.6254

jbigham

contractor

i have several vintage radiator heaters complete with valves and covers. pulled these out of a 20's home in working order. I also have a more modern gas furnace (american standard) that supplied these radiators. I need a buyer. Was going to scrap these but i hate to see antiques go to the junk yard. Willing to share driving to neutral location. Who might want these units? anyone know a buyer?

jbigham

contractor

view my post jbigham feb.4

Steve_175

Used Radiators

Here is the link to the places compiled here so far. If you find any others let Dan Holohan know.



http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/9/Virtual-Trade-Show/236/Searching-for-Old-Radiators



You could also contact these companies and see if any of them know of someone that deals in old radiators.



http://www.greenecoservices.com/reclaimed-wood-salvage-fsc-timber-illinois/



And if you want to order a subscription look into this service.



http://www.architecturalsalvagenews.com/

brenttoone

old steam radiators for sale

my mom just bought a house that has 21 radiators in the house.  we are removing the radiators and replacing the system with heat pumps.  we are interested in selling the radiators.  if interested, please call me at 434-738-8716.  i can take pictures of the radiators if needed.

Steamhead

Heat Pumps?

An old house like that will never be comfortable with heat pumps. Why not keep the steam? 

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

I was wondering too......

why would anyone want to change from one of the most efficient heating systems available that provides very comfortable, much sort after radiant heat  and replace it with noisy, uneven heat with cold floors, drafty air movement, unhealthy ductwork bacteria, paths for flame and smoke throughout a home, and (typically) high fuel costs.  You can also throw in shorter equipment life, extensive damage to the home to install ductwork, and the destruction of many of the firestops and fire seperations that keep the occupants safer in the event of a fire.

Tim_75

Exagerations

I'm not a fan of heat pumps, but your post is full of misinformation and exaggerations.

Steamhead

I don't think

many of us would agree with that. Care to be more specific? 

Tim_75

So, you fully agree

with every statement made in its entirety?



I was being generous with the language. Many of the statements could be construed as outright lies and deception. Not what I would expect from a "professional".



I own three propertis in the same area, all heated with gas, all of similar construction, one is a vapor steam system. That system has the highest cost per square foot of the three. I pay the gas bills so this is not speculation. One of the most efficient heating systems? I don't see that as true. It is very comfortable, but not efficient.



Extensive damage to install ductwork? That assumes the work is done by an incompetent hack. If the steam proponents have to resort to such a slur to extol the benefits, one has to question the real benefits.



The same concept applies to fire stops. The assumption is that the existing house has them and that a forced-air system installer would simply hack out whatever might be in the way.



Unhealthy bacteria in the duct work? Again, this assumes worst case scenario or is a fabrication. Please explain how air moving through sheet metal creates unhealthy bacteria.



As far as cold floors and drafty air movement, that again assumes incompetent system selection and/or installation. Steam radiators don't do alot to warm floors, either, BTW. We're not comparing an infloor radiant heating system to a forced air system, are we?



Need more?

jpf321

the other properties?

Tim -- just curious as to how the other properties are heated since you say the vapor is most expensive. Also, how are the usages different? Are they rented to tenants? Do you ever find open windows, doors, etc? Are the thermostats locked down to prevent tampering? Are the thermostats properly located to avoid drafts/sunlight? Does one set of tenants go in an out of the house more than the others. Tenant's comfort and habits has alot to do with heating costs. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand if the fact that it's vapor is the expensive part or other factors that may be contributing.



My tenants last year preferred the house at 52degF, this year the tenants prefer 68degF. And is the gas for cooking, DHW, and heating broken out? My 52degF tenants took ALOT of showers and did ALOT of laundry. Being that the bill was all rolled together, they had pretty big gas bill considering their cold house.

Steamhead

And Tim, you don't mention

how big these houses are, if they are insulated and how well, if they have upgraded windows, what boiler or furnasty is used in each and what condition they are in, whether or not they are oversized, whether the pipes and ducts are insulated, whether the Vapor system has well-functioning traps and vents........... I could go on.



Unless you can provide this information,  your assertion that steam is inherently inefficient is not supported by an apples-to-apples comparison. If you can, we're listening. But if not.................



We have looked for such a comparison and as far as we can tell, it doesn't exist. From time to time someone comes on here spouting these same things, and we challenge them to come up with meaningful figures. We're still waiting.



Meanwhile, we keep fixing these old steam systems and cutting their fuel consumption by as much as a third. And we have the numbers to back this claim up. For an example, click on the link to my company's Find a Contractor ad below.

Tim_75

You could

go on, and while you're focusing on details I did not provide, you also avoided the all of the points of my post but one and that is that most of the statements made are not factual or are quite exaggerated. The fact that you refer to a gas furnace as a "furnasty" indicates that you have a heavily biased view point. I have no such bias.



Claiming that a forced air system, no matter what the source of heat will create unhealthy conditions is not true. Claiming that a house with duct work is a fire hazard, any more so that any other house, is also not true.



I'll clarify some details. I have a house I live in, with very well insulated construction and very good windows with an excellent example of a forced air system. I haven't compared the relative costs of operating my home because it is much different and LP costs twice that of NG in my area.



The other two properties are rentals.I did specifically state that houses are of similar construction. That means that the levels of insulation and quality of windows is not significantly different from one to the other. One is a 1700 sf 2 story with an 80 MBH 94% efficient gas furnace, all uninsulated duct work. My highest gas bill was $150 for January. One is a 3400 sf 2-story with a 500 MBH steam boiler, and poorly insulated pipes. The highest gas bill here was $450 for the same month. The system was checked out by a good local steam guy last fall. Cooking and hot water at both places are not gas.



As a propery owner, paying 3 times the gas for twice the square footage is the meaningful figure. Is this a bad example of a steam system? Quite likely. Or is it typical of 70 year old similar systems? Also quite likely.



I like the steam system. Wish I had one in my personal residence. That doesn't change the lies that were posted that have no basis or have yet to be defended.



In my profession, I see, analyze and recommend remediation for all sorts of HVAC styems, mostly commercial, institutional and industrial. I'm not emotionally invested in any type. Most popular systems have benefits and draw-backs. The least we can do as professionals discussing the differences is try to stick to not unnecessarily bashing that which do not like/understand.

Steamhead

You still have not told us

whether the steam boiler is oversized. If it is, that will make that system use more fuel. You do say that the pipes are poorly insulated, and since, by published tests, professionals know a bare steam pipe loses five times as much heat as a well-insulated one, that would account for some of the extra fuel consumption. Since you say you're in the business, I'm surprised you haven't fixed this. It would make a great sales tool.



You say that two of your properties are "not significantly different from one to the other". This would imply that there are at least some differences. What might these be? They may be more significant than you think.



As for bias, your statement that your Vapor system is "typical of 70 year old similar systems" tells me that you think all such systems are inherently inefficient.



Finally, I can speak for 99% of the people here when I say that if we don't agree with someone, we don't call that person a liar. You have used the word "lies" in two of your postings referring to statements made by others. Dan makes and enforces the rules here, I don't and neither does anyone else. So it's up to him to act, but I know he's done it before.

Tim_75

My first words were

exaggerations and misinformation. I'll stick with those. If Dan censors me, so be it. Neither you nor Boilerpro have attempted to refute the bulk of the misstatements. Probably because there is no basis for most of those statements? You want to take issue with my word choice or my statements? I'm still waiting.....



On this property, frankly I have more concerns than than just the condition and efficiency of the steam system. IF that were my primary concern, I would be doing everything reasonable (and within my budget) to put this system in the best possible operating condition and configuration. However, I need to separate the units for utilities to be paid by tenants. I need to provide air conditioning to be where I want to be in the market.



I know that both properties have little if insulation in the walls and attic. I know that both properties have poorly maintained, single pane, double-hung windows without storms. I believe the system to be grossly oversized. I did not say this is typical, but it could be. If my intent were to divide and recondition this steam system, I would know exactly how well sized the existing system is or isn't.



As far as efficincy is concerned, a steam boiler is capable of using 82% of the heating capacity of the fuel and converting that to deliverable heat. At least that is the best I could find. A basic condensing furnace (92.1% efficient), with fan and inducer blower energy included, is no less than 89% efficient (that is total deliverable heat, divided by total energy input), for the better ones add 2 more % to that. These are simple numbers that in both cases neglect transmission losses and poor distribution by design/installation or oversizing. Can you make a steam system more efficient that 82%? More than 91%?



What am I missing here?

jpf321

on the topic of yucky ducts...

Here's a fairly robust article by the epa indoor air quality folks .. http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/airduct.html



It doesn't claim that dirty ducts are bad, but in the same breath, I don't like the fact that they even have to address the existence of "significant mold".



I understand that having an open-to-the-air 1-pipe steam system, I could have a moldy water pocket hidden away in a pipe somewhere, but it's steam cleaned after the first couple of heating cycles.



There are very few *relevant* google results for "cleaning moldy steam pipes" http://www.google.com/search?q=cleaning+moldy+steam+pipe compared to "cleaning moldy air ducts" http://www.google.com/search?q=cleaning+moldy+air+ducts