Should I get A new gas boiler

Carl1979

No bullet hole

I don't know why that hole is there . You can stick your little finger in it. the oil company cleans ands inspects the boiler / chimney every year they never say anything . and I just didn't even think about it till now, Do you think it is a safety hazard.

Mike Kusiak_2

Combustion testing

Most likely the hole is there to insert a combustion analyzer probe when testing the burner . Why they didn't plug it when they were finished is another matter.

Carl1979

Yes all radiators have 1 connection valve and 1 vent

2 - yes there are 3 main lines, All three are the ones that cause trouble at the ends



3 - No condensate tank, No pumps, wet returns drain back to boiler



4 - no zones valves



5 - I'm sending more pictures Thanks Carl

Carl1979

picture under small radiator

wet return at bottom is copper , this line go's underground before it's enter the boiler

Carl1979

picture where all lines return to boiler

all, gravity no pumps

Carl1979

picture under the monster

note, pipe on right gets hot on occasion when the monster works



2 - pipe on left never gets hot air,Or something backs up and never gets to it .



3 - I made a mess trying to clean out the plug at bottom. didn't get it open but did spring a slow leak

Dave in QCA

Traps should not be there!

I am in a rush, and will write more a little later today. 



First, those traps, all 3 of them are in the way and they should not be there at all.

There does need to be a good main vent at the end of each of those lines.  You have one, it looks like a Hoffman 75, but it probably would work better with a vent with larger capacity, and you need good main venting on all 3 of your steam mains.



Will write more later.

Carl1979

I'm getting excited

Am, I finally going to understand why I have a system that I haven't been able to find in any books or on the internet. I'm sensing somebody added a bunch of unnecessary stuff probably because water was backing up due to dirty return lines. just my guess.

Thanks Carl

crash2009

Yea Carl,

 all those traps confused the hell out of me.  A one-pipe system is supposed to be real simple.  The steam comes out of the boiler, goes down the line to the main vents, then up to the radiators.  The steam condenses, drops into the main, runs down to the end, and drops into the wet return.  Then back to the boiler to be turned back into steam.

Are the mains sloped down and away from the boiler?  Can you get a far away shot, to show how they go around the perimiter both directions? and maybe how the wet return (the one in the floor) gets from wherever it comes from to the boiler?

Carl1979

Hi Crash

I was hoping all the stuff on a one pipe line meant I had the super duper system . but no I got a knucklehead special. Concerning, The pitch The steam mains have good visible pitch. so do the wet returns. Except for the one that comes down under the black steam trap already in the picture. It just hugs the ground no pitch about 20 ft then turns right and drops underground for 8 ft run back to boiler I think because it drops underground the water would flow o.k. not sure exactly how its comes up again . I Don't think I can get a picture that would help much Carl

crash2009

How are the mains laid out?

Carl, can you complete this sketch for us so that we can have a better idea of how your mains are laid out.  If you dont have a scanner there you can draw it on paper and take a picture.

Dave in QCA

followup to earlier post

OK, thanks for your answers.  They indicate that you do have an understanding of the basic mechanics of steam heating, but were confused by what you were seeing in your system.

I am going to assume the your 3 steam mains pitch downward as the go away from the boiler.  This is indicated by the F&T traps that have been inserted in the drip legs at the end.  The person who put them in, didn't know that they were not needed.... but still, they would be at a low point, and not a high point.  I will let you confirm that on your own.

The traps need to be removed.  Main Vents, like a Gorton #2 need to be installed on each of these 3 mains.  As you repipe to remove the F&T traps, you can put in a Tee, and essenctially, you can follow the pattern of where your one vent is located.  But again, on that one, remove the Thermostatic Trap, it is not needed.



All of your drip legs from your mains, will carrying all of the condensate from your radiators and your mains.  Once the water gets below the effective water line of your boiler, pitch is not longer a concern.  Since there is nothing in these pipes but water, any amount that enters one end, will displace an equal amount, and an equal amount will flow out the other end and into your boiler.  That is assuming that your wet returns are clean and not full of sludge.  So, you will need to flush them out to be sure.



The large capacity main vents, that you are going to install will allow the steam to go flying down the mains when the boiler comes on, and first starts to produce steam.  That is what you want.  Get the steam to the end of the mains as fast as possible.  Thus, vent your mains quickly and your radiators slowly.  I see a Heat Timer varivent on one of your radiators.  They have an enormouse venting capacity, and if you have the same vent on all radiators and they are all open, you are likely to have very uneven heat.  So, you will want to start out with them almost closed.  After you have made all of the corrections, you will be able to see how the system operates.  Any radiator that is slow, can be speeded up by opening the varivalve vent a little more.



Pressure -  Your pressure trol should be set low.  No more than 2 psi maximum, preferably 1 psi or less.  Your system does not require pressure to operate.



The Monster!!!!   That is an indirect radiator.  It has 3 connections.  One, is the steam inlet.  The second is the condensate outlet.  It may connect below the water line, so most of these have an additional connection for a vent.   If not, then hopefully, the tee where the return from this monster connects to the drip leg, is actually above the water line, and if so, this monster will vent through that line an to the main vent that you are going to install soon.  However, that does create a problem.  The steam racing down the main will get to that vent and close it long before the steam has heated the monster and pushed the air out.  So, if that main vent closes, it is no longer able to vent anything else at all.  Look this monster over very well, I am sure you are going to find a vent on it somewhere.  If it is old, replace it with a new one.



Hope this all makes sense to you.  You seem to understand, but are just baffled by the parts of your system that don't make any sense to you.  Don't worry, it's not you, it is just that they don't make any sense, period!



Please keep us posted.  We all really like to know the outcome and want to hear the reports that your system is working wonderfully!



This has been an intersting thread... running from the cost to heat per sq ft, pictures of beautiful houses, the pros and cons of gas vs oil...   It took a long time to get to the nitty gritty on your system and why it is not working.



Remember, steam cannot go down a pipe or into a radiator until the air gets out.  The air cannot get out unless there is a vent.  Any low point in the piping that in effect forms a pocket of water that won't let the air through, will keep the system from operating - just like a p-trap on your sink drain keeps the sewer gas from coming up into your house.  Air won't go through water.



There are some very excellent pros on here.  They will probably chime in on this.  Also, there are some very knowledgeable "semi-pros" on here too that take a great deal of their time to help folks out.  While these guys are not contractors, their expertise is greater than many contractors who are out there doing installs.



When you get your steam heat running the way it was meant to, you are going to love it!



Dave

Steamhead

I agree

you have a 1-pipe system that's been knuckleheaded. Those traps are holding back the returning condensate, and they can't vent air since they discharge into wet returns.



And it looks like someone re-piped the whole system in copper!



That boiler is the same as the Utica Starfire or Columbia CSFH units. It's a typical pin-type cast-iron one. It'll run OK if properly cleaned and tuned.



Where are you located? Please tell me you're near Baltimore- I'd love to get my hands on that system!

Jamie Hall

I really don't have much to add

to Steamhead's and Dave's comments; they pretty well cover the ground as far as what needs to be done and why.



One does sort of have to wonder why the F&T's were put on in the first place -- at least, I always try, looking at a knucklehead system, to figure out what the knucklehead thought he was accomplishing (once in a while, turns out he wasn't a knucklehead, after all!).  But in this case... no, those traps are quite superfluous and are probably doing more harm than good.  Nice big vents and drips instead, thank you!

Carl1979

Rough idea how there laid out

I, learned a lot doing this sketch , I don't think its good for anything except to speculate

since Dave solved the puzzle. And put me on the right track. That will solve all my problems So One of the issues I'm speculating about is the steam main that runs into the monster has far more runoffs connecting to it , That return under the monster then I realized . I cannot believe the condensate can get down that dry and wet line are always cold . I'M thinking that the condensate must buildup and flow back to the equalizer into the boiler its not banging all over because the pressure is very low . Just ones of the thinks to soon be history anyway. Thanks Carl





SKETCH IS NOT POSTING I'LL take a picture of it and send later !

Carl1979

Mystery Solved !

Thank you Dave!,

Its a giant relief to know whats wrong with my system . Now I can plan to get this right and enjoy this heating system properly, I downloaded your advice and I am studying it like a Bible. I do understand just about everything you said . I know I'm on the right track now I will follow up and post some pictures when my corrected system is humming along.



Thanks again , I deeply appreciate your help. Carl

Dave in QCA

your existing vent is wrong too

Hey, just got notice that you had posted.  Read your reply and was looking back through some of the older posts and pics.  I had said that you just needed to copy the one setup where you do have a vent.  Looking at the pic again, I see that the vent line comes off the lowest point that is NOT dripped.  Thus, the venting is forced to go through a water trap.   The drips need to continue downward.  The tee for the venting needs to be above the water line, and the piping needs to be arranged so that the air flow is not forced thourgh a water trap.

crash2009

I also have had the odd diagram that will not post.

 In my case I was using Paint and saving the diagram as a .bmp file.  The Wall does not accept .bmp file.  Save the diagram as a .jpg or .jpeg and try posting again.  .

Carl1979

I'm glad you caught that

I stuck that,  there just a few days ago. it was from leftover parts.  I wanted to see if it would help anything .   I did put Three  Gordon 2 valves on last season     One is on top of the steam main with the black trap and it has been effective. But the one I put on A  single steam run out  that had a plug in it   Is amazing,   I'm looking forward to getting them all like that.    Thanks Carl

Dave in QCA

so you do have main vents??

Ok, glad to know there are some main vents that you didn't show us!  That will make everything easier. 

I was wondering, did you find a vent on the indirect radiator yet?

conway

Heating rate

When you use gas for heat, in NYC (national grid) they use a lower rate - RES 1B (instead of 1A).

 I just got a bill today: 96 therms: $144 - so exactly $1.50/therm.



Therm = 100,000BTU, 1 Oil gal = 140,000 BTU, so this works out to an equivalent oil price of $2.10/gal.

jpf321

thanks conway ..

useful info, i appreciate you forwarding it along. 

Carl1979

Yes there's and old hoffman on the other side of the

metal box it's easy to get to.    I discovered it last year when water was pouring out of it



 I tried a Gordon  2 on it  and also just left it open  with no vent  at all.    nothing happens the steam backs up in that section of copper steam main  ( a 10 ft section}   the  rest of the  mains are normal)   and virtually  never gets threw it  I've been guesting  it was a clogged wet return at the bottom of the green heat trap . now I see its both.

Carl1979

sketch ?

Let's see if this works

crash2009

That works.

1- Do the arrows tell us that is how they are sloped?

2- What is the slope of the main that goes to the top of the page?

Carl1979

yes the arrows show the slope

I meant to show the direction of the steam flow. buts its the same thing, the main in the front on the left is about 20 ft. long near the boiler it is 6 inches down from ceiling when it gets to the front ( black trap ) it is 15 inches down from ceiling

ronhaha108

hot water

I have a 2 family with 2 very old boilers (1917ish). My boilers had the tankless hot water attached to it as you say yours has. Last year, during the summer, I had the tankless hot water attachments removed and replaced with standalone gas 40 gallon hot water tanks and my bills went down significantly.



I used to use 1 full tank of oil during the summer just to heat the hot water, now it's down to about $14 per month more on my gas bill for my apartment. After getting the hot water tank installed I've only used 2 full tanks of oil from then (end of summer last year) till the beginning of this December where it would have been ~4. So, I not only saved during the summer, but even now, the boiler only comes on for heat instead of coming on during the day to keep the hot water available so there's extra savings.



Where your boiler is only 6 years old, don't know if this would save you $ the way it saved me.

Jean-David Beyer

My latest gas bill.

This is my bill from New Jersey Natural Gas for Nov 17 to DEC 21.

93.94 Therms   

Basic Gas Supply Service     $70.08

Delivery                                $49.62

Residential Customer Charge  $8.25

                                           $127.95

So $1.3620 per therm.

crash2009

a.k.a. monsters

I just stumbled into a great article on indirects. I thought you likely would like to add it to your troubleshooting library.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/231/PHC-News-articles/1778/Hidden-Radiators

Carl1979

The Monster Lives

My Son, just walked by and said it's really hot in his room I can' t remember the last time I heard that. Its been a great day, I degutted the 3 heat traps today and the difference is incredible . the Three Gordon 2 Main vents , and the dozen Gordon C radiators vents I put on last year are finally able to work properly. I'm gonna post some pictures of the monster tomorrow .



heres another link I stumbled on shows some good pictures if your interested

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/17/Hot-Water/73/Indirect-Hot-Water-Heating

Carl1979

I'm Using A tank of oil during the summer

Just for hot water also,

I just learned you can turn the thermostat down in the summer so it doesn't turn on as often . that natural gas just sounds more like a winner to me more and more

Carl1979

I definitely wondered ,

Why ? Somebody , would put the F&T's on a one pipe system. I believe I know the answer now . simply whoever did it didn't know what they where doing. I degutted the traps and the system is working great . No underlying problem that he made have made a failed attempt to correct . putting them on screwed the system up taking them off corrected it. Thanks Carl