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Beckett burner banging real bad

2

Comments

  • jcamp
    jcamp Member Posts: 27
    http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/133739/Beckett-burner-banging-real-bad

    No, it's a banging or boofing as some have said. It is on startup only, and the flap bangs also but the real bang is coming from the chamber. Exactly what a delayed ignition (had on my old burner) sounds like. Like there is too much fuel and it explodes when ignited if this makes sense.
  • World Plumber
    World Plumber Member Posts: 389
    Start up only?

    I was under the impression it was banging through the cycle! So your saying when it lights off it shakes and rattles the whole boiler and the stack pipe jumps! If that's the case I would try a solid (B) pattern nozzle and go to a wider pattern like an  80B. That will spread the fuel mist out more and bring it closer to the electrodes. (you can experiment with  "B" or "W"  which is an in between pattern. I would spectra a "B" would give better results"  Try to get a draft reading when this is happening a strong draft will be pulling the mist away and up into the sections before it lights.

         Did the techs you had there test the transformer/ignitor output?
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Bnging Beckett:

    What World Plumber says may have merit.

    However, before you go and start experimenting with nozles, check your boiler/burner installation instructions and see what Burnham/Beckett recommends for that application. I find a lot of bad running Becketts with improper nozzles in them that problems were resolved by installing the proper nozzle.

    Burnham and Beckett have worked closely together to get the most efficient and trouble free combination possible so that they could get their DOE/IBR and whatever ratings. You can go to the RW Beckett web site and possibly get what Beckett recommends for that application. Remember, Beckett also spent a lot of money on research on this burner in this application. They do not like to get a bad reputation.

    There once was a guy (now since passed) who decided that a 70 degree hollow nozzle was the universal nozzle. He trained all his guys that this was so. 70 Degrees is between 60 and 80. Good logic. He did almost all Becketts and any replacement burner was always a Beckett. If it was a Carlin (60 degree SS) he put in a Delavan 70 degree Blue, Solid. If I got called, I changed a lot of nozzles. I have found that there is no beter place to start than the manufacturers suggested nozzle.

    Just my experience.
  • jcamp
    jcamp Member Posts: 27
    Beckett banging real bad

    The factory recommends a 80 60a nozzle. This is what I was running. I have tried a 75 60a and 65 60a with the same results. Today I have my wood burning stove going and the chimney is right next oi the oil burner chimney, The oil burner is not going on much, maybe once every couple of hours to heat up the water. Today it is banging so bad and loud I am tempted to turn it off so I can sleep tonight. I don't know if the temperature of chimney has anything to do with it.
  • World Plumber
    World Plumber Member Posts: 389
    Draft

    Sure the wood burner is heating up the chimney and creating a stronger draft.

       Your changing the firing rate by changing the (.#). That changes the BTU's . The angle of the nozzle changes the way the fuel mist fills the chamber. Your draft is changing the characteristics they had in the lab. Decide what firing rate you want the experiment with different nozzle patterns. (Solid (B), semi solid (SS), universal (W) Spray angle (80) (90) if that doesn't work you have to do something about the draft. You may need to consider an insulated liner lots of money or a powerventer or new chimney. 

        Do you have a window near by the boiler. Is it possible to run a piece of stove pipe out the window insulate the pipe well in the window and operate the boiler while keeping a close watch on it. That way you will know for sure if it's the chimney.

         Once again try to get a draft gauge hooked up while the chimney is hot and add enough draft regulators to get it into spec with a hot chimney.



      Put an 80B nozzle and see if it compensates for you problems. if that doesn't work see above.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Bangers:

    You didn't say that about the chimney flues.

    Next time the boiler is running, and "banging", open the window in the room where the wood stove is burning. Open two or more. If the "banging" slows down or stops, the wood stove fire is getting it's draft air from the boiler flue. It is backing down the oil flue and causing back pressure on the burner. If the wind direction changes so that the wood smoke blows over the boiler flue, your cellar space would most likely fill up with smoke. If it is the other way around, your house would fill up with boiler exhaust. And Carbon Monoxide.

    When it comes to draft, you can't fool Mother Nature. Not ever.

    Becketts will ABSOLUTELY not run well against positive chamber pressure. At least, not one that I have ever seen.

    And regardless of what anyone says, whatever Beckett or Burnham says is the place to start with a nozzle. I have NEVER had a problem burner that I wasn't helped by going back to whatever they suggested. They have engineers that are paid well to do this. I'm not one of them. I carry copies of the latest Beckett and Carlin spec books with me at all times. I refer to them always. They have never let me down. For real problems, I call tech support. The first question from them is what nozzle are you using. The second question is did you do a combustion test.

    It is MY experience that when you start changing nozzles to try to find something that works better on something that isn't running right, you will go farther into the woods that you were when you started. When I find myself dropped into the woods, I first look for a way out before I try to find my way to the prize. That way, I know where I have started from.

    I (don't like to) assume anything but it must have run well when it was installed. If it wasn't, it should have been fixed then by the installer. If it ran well, and now it doesn't, what changed? Running the wood stove and closing the windows? Could that have something to do with it? Inquiring minds are wondering.
  • jcamp
    jcamp Member Posts: 27
    Beckett Burner banging

    Actually I am the installer, it was put in by myself and my grandson. He is a plumber but not an oil burner man. He has even said when he puts a boiler in he just starts it and it runs great. It has banged since the first day it was installed. An oil burner man came and set up everything with all the gauges digital and everything he uses.  , smoke test was run temp was set and all set to specs. Turned it on and BANG, had no idea what it was. First said it was normal probably because he didn't know what was wrong That was the first tech, two more after him and it still BANGS As posted earlier my neighbor has the exact same setup and no banging at all..
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Banging:

    I have NEVER heard of anything like your problem. Not ever. There is something really wrong with that thing. I know that Becketts can run bad but not THAT bad. There must be some fundamental flaw in the burner. If it was a package boiler and the burner came with the package, make them take a burner off a new one and try it. If it stops, then something is wrong with that burner. Maybe the wrong head, something. Carlin's only have one head. And head positioning bars that go with the nozzle firing rate. Idiot proof. I don't consider myself technologically advanced enough to figure out all those heads and dimensions and adjustments on Becketts. They make the back of my neck burn when I am faced with a problem like that.

    I will say that you really have something there. I personally NEVER give up. And I would change that burner to one that goes on it or another brand, specifically set up for that.

    I'd be calling Beckett and Burnham about this. If "I" installed it, and I spent as much time on this as you seemed to have, I'd be squawking.

    Post this over on Oil Tech Talk. I'd be interested as to what they say. They LOVE Becketts over there and are all really good oil burner technicians.
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,214
    I have used many becketts

    I have one in my fathers boiler actually. I just do not know how to fix it by way of the internet. A decent burner guy should be able to go in measure the draft over the fire. the smoke and the settings and get it humming. I am sorry you are going through all this. as a thought how about going and buying a nice new nozzle and starting the tuning from scratch. I have seen over tightened nozzles leaking. I will check again but I think you checked for leaks in the oil line. The last idea is this, and I have seen it. Are you sure that the only thing in the oil tank is number 2 heating oil. Da had a job where the boiler blew up. They thought it had dry fired. When he went to fire the new boiler he got fire blasting out the peep hole. Turns out the 20,000 gallon under ground tank had a truck load of gasoline dumped into it.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Banging Fuel:okes

    Interesting suggestion Charlie. Something like that could cause that.

    Disconnect the HP line and squirt it into a glass jar. If it isn't red, mybe you have something. Then, smell it. If it doesn't have that fresh aroma of Eau De #2, it ain't it. Put it in a pan, stand back and toss a match in it. If the match goes out, it's Kero or #2. If it goes Poof, it ain't pure and lt's been lieing. Definately something strange. I'd still rag on Beckett and Burnham though. It ought'a run, even if it smokes.

    Have you tried putting a gauge on the nozzle test port to see if it pulsates or that the pressure is what it is supposed to be?

    How I'd like to hear and see that little rascal doing its thing and how I'd like to figure it out. What fun.

    Where are you located?
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,257
    edited December 2010
    If this is a brand-new unit

    it should have a valve-on delay setup, most probably an R7184B or GeneSys control and CleanCut pump on the burner. it's possible some oil is being leaked into the combustion area when the burner first starts to run, then lighting off with a bang when the usual oil flow is delivered to the nozzle. 



    This situation is unsafe, whatever is actually causing it, and fixing it is a job for a pro. Try the Find a Contractor link above, since your usual burnermen don't seem to be able to solve the problem.



    Oh, and Icy- a good burner is a good burner, no matter what brand it is. Proper selection, installation, setup and maintenance are what matters most.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Banging my head:

    Steamed, That is true. But, I don't do scorched air. One burner is used and recommended on most all scorched air furnaces. Another is listed for very few. That burner will blow a hole right out the back. I think that that burner has better fuel utilization characteristics. My opinion. My choice.
  • jcamp
    jcamp Member Posts: 27
    Beckett Burner banging

    As far as the fuel it is definitely fuel oil. The burner that in before this one (Beckett also) was running just fine. Just had tanks filled in September.. As far as fuel leaking I have had the burner running and after it shut off pulled rods out to check if there was any fuel laying anywhere, dry as a bone. Hoping to get someone new in here next to give it one final try before I go to the doctors for a custom made set of ear plugs.
  • Patchogue Phil_2
    Patchogue Phil_2 Member Posts: 303
    nozzle dripping?

    Can you verify if the nozzle is dripping AFTER shutdown?



    You might need a small 2"x2" mirror on a stick to see into the combustion chamber after shutdown.
  • World Plumber
    World Plumber Member Posts: 389
    pressure/leaks

    Did the guys you had in there before use a pressure manifold to check for proper pump pressure and leak through? Did they check the vacuum on the fuel line? Was the barometric damper set with a draft gauge? It didn't appear to be opening in the picture. Have they tried increasing the pressure and down sizing the nozzle? There is something out of kilter with the proper testing equipment they should be able to find it.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Testing a Banger:e?

    Just because you have some fancy electronic combustion analyzer doesn't mean you know how to use it or interpret what it is telling you.

    My wet bulb Bachrach CO2 test kit will tell me everything I need to know about this problem.

    Is it making smoke?

    If I open or close the air shutter, does the noise change?

    If I find a "sweet" ( better spot), and I open or close the RC, does it change?

    What does my draft meter say when I do all this?

    What happens to the draft over the fire when I do any of the above?

    What is the CO2?

    What's the pump pressure when running?

    Does it fluctuate when "banging"?

    What is the vacuum at the filter?

    Pump?

    Is it a spin on filter with a gauge?

    What kind of fuel do I get when I put a hose on the bleed screw and run it into a can with the T-T jumped and the nozzle line squirting in the can? Is it clear or cloudy showing air bubbles showing a vacuum leak?

    When you changed this boler, did you replace the WHOLE oil line with a "protected" oil line with ALL flare fittings?

    If you put the bleed hose in can and let the oil flow into the can with the hose submerged, you shouldn't see any bubbles or microbubbles in the oil. If you do, you have a vacuum leak. In fact, there is a cause for everything. A vacuum leak can cause this. Put a Garber Spin-On at the pump with a gauge. If the needle goes up much in the green, you have a problem. If it goes into the yellow, You have found your problem.

    In Massachusetts, we are required to replace ANY fuel line that doesn't meet code on a burner replacement. The only thing to meet code is a "protected" line or a new line in a sleeve like PVC NMT.
  • jcamp
    jcamp Member Posts: 27
    Beckett Burner banging

    Thanks to everyone for trying to help. I have just about given up trying to fix the problem. I have nobody local that I can trust to repair the problem. I even went to the place I bought it and asked for a name of someone who can fix the problem. No answer. I am starting to become immune to the banging and as long as it doesn't blow up I'm good to go.

    I'm a retired Teamster, 70 y7ears old, and pretty handy but not efficient on the burner repair and apparently neither is anyone else in my area. Getting tired of changing this and changing that with no solution in site. Right now my back is out with all the shoveling so the burner is on hiatus for a while. Again thanks to all for trying. I only wish some of you guys were local to me.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Don't give up:

    "J",

    Don't give up.

    Start with the oil line. You must replace it. Start at the tank and go all the way to the burner. Change that POS filter to a new Garber. Get someone to do it. Someone like one of the guys that tried to fix it. There are only two things that make a burner not run right. Fuel/air and Ignition. If it is "banging" as you describe it, it isn't ignition. It must be fuel. And if you have a suction leak, it could easily act like this. I haven't seen something do exactly this but it easily could.

    DO NOT USE COMPRESSION FITTINGS!!! Use only FLARE fittings

    Call the serv ice person/Oil Company and tell them you want the oil line from the tank to the burner changed.

    As a proving point, get 5 gallons of Diesel or Kero oil and connect the burner to this fuel source. It will probably run. There is no reason for that to not run. It is a nice, clean install. It just should have had the oil line changed.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    ditto

    like the ice man said, don't give up yet. Have you contacted a Burnham rep? Get them involved, so if there is any defective parts that may be causing your problem, they will stand behind it.
  • Alan R. Mercurio_3
    Alan R. Mercurio_3 Member Posts: 1,617
    West Point

    Jcamp, I have only lived in NY for about 5 years is West Point anywhere near Saugerties, NY? If so and it's not to far I'd be happy to take a look at this.

    Just know this will cost you a cup of coffee or two :-)
    Your friend in the industry,



    Alan R. Mercurio



    www.oiltechtalk.com
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    He's your man Jcamp

    If you can get Alan over to check things out, you'll be golden
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Banger Repair:

    Thanks Alan,
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    Lots of coffee

    According to Google Maps, they are 75 minutes apart, so I guess a lot of cups of coffee will be required. ;-)
  • jcamp
    jcamp Member Posts: 27
    Beckett Burner banging

    Iceman

    Again thanks. I can change the oil line with no problem and also the filter. There are no compression fittings on the line now only flare fittings. I just have to wait for some help to get under my porch where the two new tanks are  now. There is a new line coming out of the tank but it is connected to the original line and it is connected with flare fittings. The oil in a 5 gallon pail sounds like a good option and I might try that. Thanks again.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    To try

    That's just a trouble shooting trick. If it runs out of a 5 gallon can and doesn't bang, I think a prudent person could conclude that there is something there.



    Good luck.
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,214
    Look even if you pay him full rate

    75 minutes is nothing compared to what this could cost. No one on here wants this to be an install from H e double hockey sticks. That is if Alan is willing to drive that far.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,214
    Look even if you pay him full rate

    75 minutes is nothing compared to what this could cost. No one on here wants this to be an install from H e double hockey sticks. That is if Alan is willing to drive that far.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • jcamp
    jcamp Member Posts: 27
    Beckett still banging

    Hapy New Year to all

    I have no problem paying anybody full rate or whatever they want as long as they can fix the problem. What I object to is someone coming, charging me and not fixing the problem. The last "Tech" said well its better got paid and left. Told me it's normal to bang like that, what do I know. I am a retired truck driver. 
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Banging DX:

    J,

    When you (I) get a problem like this, you must bring all your "stuff" in and start from #1. That means, first start the thing and listen to what it sounds like. Pressure and vacuum gauges on the pump. Does it have constant ignition or interrupted ignition? If interrupted, does it get better if constant? Draft? I have to get all test equipment going and watch what they are doing.

    If you walk in and approach a problem like you are a rock star, you may get bitten in the butt.

    Learning is like a pyramid. You learn a lot at the base. There's a lot to cover. But as you rise in learning, the size gets smaller. The higher you go, the harder it is to find the pearls. One of the best ways to learn is to get in the tub and find yourself being sucked down the drain. How you get out is the pearl that takes you to the next step. Whomever finds this problem will find the pearl. I've found a lot of pearls in my time. Enough to almost make a necklace. 

    That's why I always liked to pick the brains of the old guys. They had the pearls.
  • burnerman_2
    burnerman_2 Member Posts: 297
    Banging Burnham

    Have read most of these posts kinda interesting. 1 thing I did not see was nozzle line. I have had a few of these NEW and have bad flares. A Beckett rep said a Machine did it and That was impossible. At my cost I mailed One to them. Seems a while back the machine screwed up. They thought they got all the faulty ones apparently not.
  • Patchogue Phil_2
    Patchogue Phil_2 Member Posts: 303
    verdict?

    jcamp



    What's the latest?  Any progress?
  • Techman
    Techman Member Posts: 2,144
    Banger

    With low capacity nozzles ,Beckett usuall wants the combustion air to come thru the side air band not the larger outside air band and also a special air gasket under the transformer. But you need to know the oil pump pressure.
  • jcamp
    jcamp Member Posts: 27
    Beckett Burner banging

    No progress. Still banging like hell. Can't even get the selling dealer to recommend a repairman. I have given up and learning to live with it. As long as it doesn't blow up I guess I'm ok for a while. Using wood burning stove now so it's not running much. Mostly for hot water.

    Thanks to everybody for the help
  • World Plumber
    World Plumber Member Posts: 389
    You need the test equipment

    As we posted before you need a knowledgeable tech with his test equipment. You can have a suction leak letting air but won't drip oil out. A restriction, a weak transformer, too strong a draft, the pump pressure could be too low, you could have a cracked electrode, on and on. They try to test fire them in the factory, but they take a lot of bouncing around in shipment. I have contractors who do the piping and call me to do the burner set up. If you don't have the test equipment, know how to use it and know what the numbers mean, your only guessing.

        PS: it won't get better until the problem is found and remedied.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Solutions:

    JCAMP,

    I don't know what is wrong with this burner and from all the dialog about it going back a month or so, and all who describe as "looking" at it., if it is as you say it is, I strongly suggest that you contact the boiler manufacturer and/or the burner manufacturer. "Insist" that they have a "Rep" come with a new burner, set up for your application and try it. If the problem goes away, something was wrong with the burner. On raee occasions, I have been confronted with situations that were resolved by a replacement. 

    You have gone on for far too long with this problem. Your discription of the sound of your problem is like trying to describe to someone the difference between chocolate and vanille ice cream to someone who has never tasted either. Your "b ang" may be entirely different to someone else like me. And a lot of techs may not want to fail at fixing this problem. That's why you need to contack the factory of the boiler manufacturer and burner manufacturer. A lot of installers use that burner. I don't like them personally because they have far too many complicated adjustments that need to be done in applications like yours. End cone, baffle plates, air shutters, nozzle sprays. Most of us assume that it is correct from the factory. Maybe it isn't. The burners I use have few adjustments. Head positioning bars are determined by output. That leaves nozzle type and air adjustment. But there are a n awful lot of techs that swear by your burner. Maybe it is a draft problem.

    You need to move up to a higher level. Someone needs to physically be in the room when it is doing it.
  • joeoilman
    joeoilman Member Posts: 30
    beckett

    Does your primary control Pre-purge ?   Is your pump  pressure correct ?
  • jcamp
    jcamp Member Posts: 27
    Beckett Burner banging

    You guys are asking me questions I can't answer. As far as contacting Beckett I have done that and they are no help, tech sits at a desk and answers questions as his computer tells him to. It's still banging or boofing as some say. As I said previously it's something I am beginning to live with. Hopefully as long as it doesn't blow up when Spring comes I can get someone up here to check it out. Again, thanks for all the help.
  • World Plumber
    World Plumber Member Posts: 389
    Certified tech

    Your not saving anything by hiring fly by nighters. You need someone who has the test equipment and can answer these questions. A true tech will know the answers in short order and correct it. I didn't spend thousands of dollars for the test equipment just to look at. Most anything that could be bad in the burner the tech should have on his truck. Until you watch the draft, oil pressure and suction pressure with the unit running you won't know the answer to you problem.  I beg to differ with you on Beckett. I don't know who you spoke with but several of the gentlemen there have years of field experience. And have dwelt with these kind of issues. But they can't give any answers if they don't know what is doing. Without doing the tests this is just a go around and around. The burner need to be set up by a pro who has the equipment to check for the quirks that necessitate a change in normal settings and knows how to do it. 
  • Charlie Masone
    Charlie Masone Member Posts: 66
    Alan

    I thought Alan was taking care of you.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    I almost

    want to venture off Cape to go tackle this monster. It's hard to fathom that no one can get this burner right. He had a few so called techs there, yet no satisfaction. Are they salesmen for gas conversions? I'm also curious why Burnham/Beckett is of no help?
This discussion has been closed.