Desperate for Help

Just_Barbara

First, my apologies for the length of this “summary."



Unfortunately, mine is not a short story, but I’ve edited as much as possible to give you what I can only guess will be the most relevant information.



I live in an approximately 100-year-old, 2-story, 1700 sq. ft. stone block home that has hot water heat w/ cast iron radiators. When my now ex-husband and I purchased the home 16 years ago, he replaced the old boiler with a Weil-McLain Model - CG-4-PIDN, Series 11, which ran just fine for approximately 6 years. After that, we began getting “booming” in the radiators, which my ex assumed was air, and we tried bleeding to resolve. It didn’t work – in fact, at times, there was no air.



As the booming became more frequent and louder, he began calling various experts – though he has HVAC certification, he is not an expert in boilers – and everyone said the same thing, that it has to be air.



After several months of this, we came home to a cold house one day in May after the heat had been off due to warmer temps, and I jacked it up a bit to warm the house up. Probably an hour or so later, there were two booms on the first floor so loud they literally almost knocked me out of my chair on the second floor, and the radiator in the dining room had burst.



Since that day, I have had probably at least 10 different heating/plumbing contractors here and spent a couple of thousand dollars having the expansion tank replaced twice – once with a larger one than the original - replacing the relief valve, and having a pipe I was told my ex put in the wrong direction redone because “this is the only thing that COULD be causing your problem” – to the tune of $900 for that one “fix.” Not more than 24 hours later, my boom was back.



Most recently, I had a contractor in whose family has owned the heating/plumbing business for, I believe he said 3 generations, and he spent quite a bit of time here and seemed to know his stuff…. Except that in the end, he came up with that he should replace the existing expansion tank with a larger one (this was tried before, to no avail), and replace the current relief valve with a Honeywell PV125 super vent. He also said the current boiler is too small for this house – something none of the other contractors have ever suggested.



I don’t understand, and no one has been able to answer for me yet, why if this is the tank or the valve (which even the above gentleman said is working now…), the size of the boiler, or the pipe that was ‘fixed,’ this thing ran fine for the first 6 years. I don’t recall that we ever had any kind of noise in the radiators or pipes, or even heard it running back then.



There have been 2 other suggestions along the way – 1) that due to the house settling, a radiator pipe or pipes were up against the floor, but there was only one my ex could find that was even touching, and he shaved that hole a bit to resolve that, to no avail; and 2) that it’s due to sediment buildup in the boiler due to the awful water here… I wonder about this one, as the booming has gotten worse, more frequent, and it does often sound when the boiler turns on like rocks in a tumbler down there. In addition, though other radiators around the house have had smaller booms from time-to-time, these booms now occur mainly in the living room, the pipes that run from basement to upper level in the corner of the room, and my bedroom radiator, which is above the living room radiator.





Aside from being terrified every night of another burst, I am at my wit’s end, as I’m on my own now, exhausted much of my savings, and need to sell the house, but obviously I can’t (and wouldn’t) put it on the market without having this resolved. I fear putting another nearly $900 into the fix proposed above that I don’t feel terribly confident is a fix (not to take anything away from the gentleman who proposed it – he spent a lot of time here and I believe gave me his best educated answer), or nearly $5k for a brand new boiler if the problem could possibly be in the pipes somewhere (e.g. an obstruction of some kind?).



If you got to the end here, thanks so much for taking the time to read. Any and all feedback welcome and greatly appreciated.

Ironman

Boiler Scaling

Assuming that you don't have a combustion problem, and you didn't mention whether you have gas or oil, it sounds like your boiler needs de-scaling. This is basically what you referred to as sediment in the boiler.



The scale build up acts like an insulation barrier in the boiler and when the burner heats the iron casting, some of the water that is trapped between it and the scale becomes superheated as it flashes to steam causing a violent reaction as it contacts the cooler water in the boiler. Then you get the "boom" in your piping. Smaller occurrences of this will give the "rocks in a tumbler" sound.



A boiler pro should be able to de-scale the boiler with chemicals if the build up isn't to severe.



As far as sizing, if it's heated your house sufficiently for many years, don't worry about the size.



If scaling is the problem, I would have the system thoroughly checked for leaks as the only way scale can keep entering the system is through fresh make up water.

Just_Barbara

Thank you SO much, Ironman!

for the reply... Sorry, it is natural gas, not oil, but thank you for taking the time to read and a reply that sounds like it could make sense in my case...



Now to find someone who does this "de-scaling,' because no one yet over the years has mentioned or offered.



Would the cost of this - or any additional work - be worth doing on this boiler that is now 16 years old?

Ironman

Depends...

If the scaling is severe or not. I've seen it so severe that numerous de-scalings wouldn't get it all out. In that case, you'd be looking at a new boiler.

Mark Eatherton

Got pictures????

They are worth a MILLION words ;-)



Food for thought. I assume, based on age that this system was originally gravity. If it was, the Dead Men had a trick of installing a restrictive orifice in the outlet of radiators that were showing signs of excess flow. That was usually reserved for radiators on upper floors where the gravity hot water had a tendency to want to rise to, but I've seen them on main floors where they were the path of least resistance as well.



Now, IF these orifices were still there, AND the system was operating at a low pressure (gravity tank still in the attic) AND it was running extremely hot (boiling sounds) AND the pump was pumping towards the PONPC, when the pump starts or stops (short cycling thermostat) there would be enough cavitation to cause a significant drop in pressure, thereby causing the water to flash to steam, and BOOM, an in radiator steam explosion. It is even conceivable that iif the pump is pumping away from teh PONPC that enough cavitation to cause this scenario.



QUestions: (You may have to contact your ex to get the answers...)



1. Was the system still gravity when he replaced the boiler?



2. Did you experience an imbalance in the heating system shortly after the new one was installed?



3. Did anyone bother to go through and pull the restrictive orifices on the radiators?



4. Are you absolutely positive you have hot water, and not steam? (We will be able to tell from good pictures)



5. What pressure does the gage on the boiler read hot and cold?



Answer these questions and we will come up with more. And some good pictures of the boiler, and near boiler piping would be extremely helpful.



We have yet to be stumped here at The Wall. Bear with us and we will find resolution to your problem. When the one radiator exploded, did you happen to take pictures of it for the insurance company? I'd LOVE to see what kind of damage it did where and how...



ME

tim smith

booming noise

Here is my guess, I cant imagine it is a dirty boiler after all these guys have been through. Not to say it is not but....  It sounds like pipe contrction during heat up/ cool down. Maybe someone needs to go in there and make sure all piping is clear of wood. If long straight pipe runs, put in expansion joints. I have heard just a few places that had really noisy bangs from this expansion. Just 2 cents worth until we can see some pics etc.

Just_Barbara

Back w/photos

Hi Mark and Tim, and thanks for your time and input. I do have several photos I can attach - the first batch of the boiler I took to send to someone who asked for them along with info on and unit and never got back to me. I've also had a few along the way who came to the house telling me of course we could figure this out, and then never heard from them again. I guess some people just don't appreciate a good challenge. :-D

You have NO idea how good it makes me feel to read that you've never been stumped here. Everyone else who's investigated this situation clearly is, even if they gave me an 'answer.'



Anyway, As to your questions, Mark, I have left a voice mail for my ex, so will get back with more answers when i hear from him. I think he was going to be working out of town this past week/weekend, so might be another day or so.



In the meantime, after reading your message, I do recall that when we moved in, there was an old empty oil tank (or maybe 2) in the basement, and I believe we were told that the system was converted from oil to gas long ago. It is a hot water system - no one who has seen or worked on it has disputed that.



Regarding an imbalance of heat, assuming you mean differences in the temp of the radiators around the house - yes, one in particular in an upstairs bedroom would seem to be cold or half warm/half cool more than others, and when we tried to bleed it, sometimes got air, sometimes not, but even running a little water would help it even out. I don't know that this wasn't an issue even with the previous owner. I don't recall that this was an issue for us before we began investigating for a cause of the noise. I do sometimes still have some differences in one or more radiators, but don't often get air, other than a bit from the one in the downstairs hall.



I'm not sure what you mean by "restrictive orifices," but perhaps the photos I attach will help you determine if we even have these?



Regarding the pressure gauge, I've included some photos of that - they may not be very clear, but may reveal something to you that I don't see because I don't know what I'm looking at. The one when it was cold will be obvious, and the pressure when it was hot looked like the pressure (psi?) was nearing 50, and the temp on approximately 120. At this point the radiators were hot.



As to the photos from the burst, I know we did take them, but could take me some time to search for them if we still have them. We didn't have digital cameras and such "back then' - these were regular photos. I do recall that there was a visible crack in the radiator after the fact when it was emptied and taken out.



One question I have regarding the scaling - when this was brought up the first time a couple years ago, another contractor said this couldn't be it since it's the same water in there - it's not like new/bad water is being introduced into the system all the time. However, with the burst, all the bleeding, and all these differences "fixes" along the way, it has been emptied and filled with new water at least a few times, and I wonder how much, if any, impact that has in that regard.



I hope I've answered all the questions and am clear enough. I was up till nearly 3:30 a.m. - pretty sure last night was going to be the night with all the booming and too scared to sleep.



Photos are attached (I hope). Please feel free to ask for any clarification on anything.



One more thing - Mark, you ask me to bear with you, but as I've been reading and have new questions in my own mind come up, I will have to ask you to bear with me and for your guidance in how much is okay to post without being asked for input, as I see how busy these boards are and want to be mindful of everyone's time and others' needs so I'm not monopolizing the board.





Thanks so much,



Barbara

bill_105

Barb

I saw this thing last night. Make damn sure you have a CO detector in place. And the relief valve?? At the least!! If your not feeling well. Go to a friends house. I just had one like this.

Just_Barbara

Yikes, now I'm really scared!

Re: Bill's post... I do have a CO detector on the first floor, and the alarm has not sounded... at least not while I've been home.



Is this a real concern, as long as this has been going on, and no one else has detected it, and I'm not dead?



I will add that earlier when I was taking photos, as I stepped near the living room radiator to take them, it boomed just like it does other times.

Just_Barbara

Yikes, now I'm really scared!

Re: Bill's post... I do have a CO detector on the first floor, and the alarm has not sounded... at least not while I've been home.



Is this a real concern, as long as this has been going on, and no one else has detected it, and I'm not dead?



I will add that earlier when I was taking photos, as I stepped near the living room radiator to take them, it boomed just like it does other times.

Just_Barbara

Yikes, now I'm really scared!

Re: Bill's post... I do have a CO detector on the first floor, and the alarm has not sounded... at least not while I've been home.



Is this a real concern, as long as this has been going on, and no one else has detected it, and I'm not dead?



I will add that earlier when I was taking photos, as I stepped near the living room radiator to take them, it boomed just like it does other times.

Mark Eatherton

Patience...

is one of our virtues.



FIrst thing I see is a high head NRF pump pumping towards teh expansion tank. Not a good scenario.



I also see indications of a LOT of rust on the sides of the boiler indicating a continual long term water loss and subsequent make up,, which can cause the scaling and rock grinding noises you have told us about.



And I see a bull headed tee, which is also a no no, but wouldn't cause the noise issues you are dealing with.



Restrictive orifices were placed inside of the unions on the affected radiators. They are not something you can see from the outside, and the system would have to be drained in order to remove them. You'd also want to leave this to a professional because the radiators are quite heavy.



One tell tale sign of lime scale is that when the burner is running, look at the temperature/pressure gage on the boiler, and if the pressure is jumping or bouncing, it is a confirmation that the appliance is scaled up, which would cost you more money to operate, but won't cause the noise issues that you are experiencing.



What is the highest temperature that you have seen on the boiler when it is running?



As for this being a dangerous situation, in my professional opinion, you have all the necessary safety equipment to make sure your boiler doesn't go ballistic. It may be obnoxious, and it might give you a start, but I really don't think you have an explosive situation at hand.



Get some sleep. Even if you have to wear ear plugs to avoid hearing the snap crackles and pops your heating system is presenting.



Forgot to ask. Where are you located?





ME

Mike Kusiak_2

Gauge readings?

What is the reading on the PSI scale of the pressure gauge? The temperature reading? The photos are fuzzy, but one of the gauges is almost against the pin!



Hope the gauge is broken, but is it possible someone installed a 50 PSI relief valve?

bill_105

well

I spoke to my psychiatrist to no avail. Be safe out there. Love from Alaka!!

Mark Eatherton

Regarding CO...

Regardless of WHAT type of heating system you have, except for all electric, you MUST be concerned with CO. You have taken a step in the right direction by having a detector on hand. I'd get one for your bedroom as well. You are most susceptible to CO while you are sleeping.



If it has a flame, it produces CO and it can become deadly in the blink of an eye. This is not specifically directed at you individually Barb, but is directed to any one reading this. You can't be too cautious where CO is concerned.



When the radiator boomed when you were taking pictures, was the heating system running then?



ME

Just_Barbara

Patience....

IS a virtue, and it's not my intention to be impatient - just watching for posts in between other regular Sunday stuff and trying to respond as quickly as possible when I see one because I work during the week and will not be able to read/respond till I get home.



You have got me concerned about CO now and I will call a helpline after I've responded here to ask some questions to be on the safe side.



Mark - I am in Illinois, near DeKalb, which is about 90 min. west of Chicago.



The boiler has been running for some time now, so I went down to check the gauge.. neither needle is bouncing around - they appear to be moving slowly and steadily...Just now had a rather loud boom so ran back down to see if there was a sudden increase in either temp or pressure; there was not.



Sorry for the blurry photos on the gauge - there is a rather large pipe in the way so that I can't get a better vantage point to focus. The temp is not at 120 yet; on the bottom (blue) line, which I now see is 2 lines and has 2 sets of numbers - the needle is just now a bit more than halfway to the 20 on top (psi?) and 50 on the bottom (whatever the heck that is).



Does that help?



Also, that last guy who was here literally sat on the floor alongside this system for about 2 hours after he made me turn the heat way up - he was waiting to see what the pressure would do and assured me he was sitting there so he would be ready to act if it began to move up too high, too quickly. It got REALLY hot in the house ( it was still unseasonably warm for late Sept. in IL,), and the pressure never did reach a point of concern. It was then that he decided that our boiler was too small for the house, by the way and for what it's worth, because he said it took way too long to heat up to the temp he was waiting to see. But the heat had not come on for the season at all before that day, and i would never set the thermostat as high as he had me put it (I believe it was over 80).



Mark -as to some of your other new comments/questions... I do appreciate your input; however, as I'm reading some of this stuff, you're probably hearing a loud ::whoosh:: on your end (or would be if you were here)... That is the sound of all information mechanical in nature going right over my head. So I will keep reading and trying to understand, but am admittedly a bit lost on some of this.



Just FYI, I have questioned many times the amount of rust on this system, as well as the lime buildup and rust on the relief valve, and have been told this is normal and not of concern.....



One more thing in case it matters, I mentioned in my response to bill about the booms that happened when I was taking photos of the LR radiator. These happened *because* I stepped near the radiator - that always happens when anyone walks that close to it - and the boiler was not on at the time.

Mike Kusiak_2

Pressure gauge

Does the bottom gauge ever move or does it always stay stuck at 50? Have you seen it lower? Does water ever come out of the relief valve?

Mark Eatherton

Aha!!!

You said "One more thing in case it matters, I mentioned in my response to bill about the booms that happened when I was taking photos of the LR radiator. These happened *because* I stepped near the radiator - that always happens when anyone walks that close to it - and the boiler was not on at the time."



This is starting to sound more and more like an expansion/contraction issue.



As metal is heated up, it expands. It can expand quite quickly and will tick, click and in some cases BOOM. As it cools down, it goes through the same process, and again, can click, tick, ping and BOOM. THis is not an indication of a "problem", but is rather a side effect of heat being delivered to the space. It can be alleviated in numerous ways, some which are relatively inexpensive, some which are not.



The least expensive method would be to have someone help you lift the radiator just so slightly above the floor, and insert a piece of plastic, like a polyethylene milk carton material underneath the legs. This will allow the radiator to glide smoothly as it is expanding and contracting and avoid discharges of the pent up stress. The radiators are QUITE heavy, and connected by rigid pipes, so I recommend that two people perform this job. I usually use a fulcrum (block of wood) and a heavy duty pry bar to lift the radiator ever so slightly, while my assistant places the PE strip beneath the legs I have elevated, then carefully lower the radiator back to the floor.



The other, more expensive alternative will alleviate the expansion/contraction noises, but will not eliminate them completely.



It involves installing a control logic that references the outside air temperature, and changes the boilers operating temperature commensurate with the outside air temps. The colder it gets outside, the hotter the water gets. With your boiler, you can't turn it any lower than 140 degrees F, or other unseen issues will arise (condensation).



The rock grinding noises you related are most probably being caused by the pump not being in the right place in relationship to the expansion tank connection. If in fact there are restrictive orifices in the unions of the radiators, the pump is trying to overcome some serious pressure drops within the system. Due to its improper location, it has no choice but to present its pressure differential as all negative pressure. This causes the pump to create what we call cavitation. As the name implies, it creates a cavity in the water. In some cases, it can sound like rocks being ground up, or like fire crackers going off in the water. Generally speaking, cavitation occurs easier with hotter water, so if the noise you are hearing gets worse as the boiler runs longer, then it is definitely cavitation, and there is no easy fix for this problem. This will entail having to completely re--pipe the boiler, which based on your previous statements is probably not in your budget.



I don't see any means of air removal on the near boiler piping, but if all of your radiators are the large cast iron type I am not too concerned. You have what is referred to as a bottom fill , top purge system. When attempting to purge these systems, the pump MUST be off. Otherwise, you are chasing your tail, and the air.



You might have some other issues, and when it comes time for your buyer to perform a house inspection, they will probably call out the missing relief waste pipe, and rust on the side of the boiler. The noise issues are the nature of the beast, and if you disclose them before the sale, you are not hiding anything and they can't come back at you for non disclosure.



If you should chose to replace the boiler, have the contractor check for orifices in the unions of the radiators, and remove them, and make certain that he agrees to install the boiler per the manufacturers recommendations. If in doubt, have them come here and we will explain the reason that pumping away from the boiler and expansion tank are better than pumping towards.



Maybe one of the contractors that hang out here are near you and can do an "eyes on" tour and inspection too assist you in your search for the elusive, quiet comfort.



In any case, as I previously stated, other than being obnoxious, the noise issues do not represent any explosive potentials. I'd still be interested in seeing the photographs of the fractured radiator, but in the 35 years I have been doing this, I have never seen a radiator explode, even on steam with steam hammer, which is significantly more destructive. I suspect the radiator had been exposed to a freezing condition before, and had been stressed by that and eventually failed.



ME

tim smith

RE: now I am really scared

Lets not scare the lady. no signs of spillage at the draft diverter, no discoloration, no dead parakeets laying around.  To the Ms, it would be a good idea to call the local utility that supplies gas and ask for a safety check. They usually don't charge for it and it is prudent. I still go back to expansion and contraction noise. I think someone needs to be there when boiler is cold and fire up and just take a listen. A good mechanic will work towards quieting this beast down. Good luck

Mark Eatherton

Mike

One side of the pressure readout is in PSI, the other is in feet of head. She read the feet of head first. She is running at around 20 PSI.



ME

Steamhead

Barbara, you need to call

Dave "Boilerpro" Bunnell, owner of Boiler Professionals, who is one of the best and isn't too far from you. Go here for his info:



http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/105/Boiler-Professionals-Inc



Tell him we sent you.

Just_Barbara

Update....

Steamhead - Thank you! That is the gentleman who first suggested this board to me, and for that I am grateful, though he was going to call me later in the week on his way home from the city to stop by and take a look, and I never heard from him.



In the meantime, I heard from my ex, and it turns out that he did in fact replace a gravity system ( I had no idea), and apparently he didn't know to check for these restrictive orifices.



I also just got off the phone with that last contractor who was here and told him of our thread here and Mark's question regarding those, and he had his own "aha" moment on that it seemed, as he said he had not seen those in so long he did not think to ask. He said it was an excellent question and agrees this could be a clue we needed, agrees that whatever the cause(s) end up being, it is definitely an expansion/contraction issue, he is seeing his Weil-McLain rep tomorrow and tells me he IS going to get this resolved for me.



If for some reason he is unable to do so, I will try calling Boiler Pros again.



Mark - No words to express my gratitude for your time, input, and asking so many great questions that may help finally end this nightmare.





By the way, though it does appear I'm coming down with something, it's not CO poisoning - I stopped on the way home from work and buy another detector and check the one downstairs to make sure it was still functioning properly, and all appears to be fine on that front. I am glad it was brought up, though, as I did forget that I needed one on upper level.



Much gratitude to all!



Barbara

Steamhead

Call Dave again

He's usually pretty good about returning calls, maybe his cell phone died? 

Mark Eatherton

You're welcome Barbara...

We're here to help. Let us know if there is anything else we can help you or your contractor with. The reason I asked where you were is because sometimes you get lucky and find that a knowledgeable contractor is in your area. I've met Dave B, and he is a sharp individual hydronically speaking.



Good boiler people are hard to find, and hard to get because they are SO busy... Have patience and you will be rewarded in the end.



ME