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circulator issues

cooz
cooz Member Posts: 8
My circulator pump never seems to turn on.  I'm still getting heat because the zone valves and burner are working fine and i guess gravity is doing the job but obviously this isn't the most efficient way to heat. i thought it was the aquastat so I replaced it but its still seems to be the same.  I also gave power straight to the pump and it started just fine.  The aquastat is a honeywell 8148E and I the only thing I can think of is that it was wired wrong all along.  Any ideas?

Comments

  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,366
    Circ.

    Is the circ. wired to the C1 and C2 terminals of the L8148e ?
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Aquastat Relay

    ............and make sure you have line voltage connected to L1 and L2 and that your thermostat is connected to the thermostat connections.



    I manually push the relay to engage the contacts to make sure I've got power.



    If you know your pump works and you have power to the relay, then you're not getting closure on the thermostat connections.



    Tell us how it turns out.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • cooz
    cooz Member Posts: 8
    Aquastat Relay

    Yes.

    circulator is on c1 and c2

    main is on l1 and l2

    When i push the relay there is power

    and the thermostats are connected to T and TV

    There is also a dampner attached to B1, B2 and Z
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    sounds like

    a bad circulator. Is it a cartridge type? 
  • cooz
    cooz Member Posts: 8
    circulator

    You think it's bad? Even though I ran seperate power to it and it started working..

    Yes, its a cartridge...A Taco 007-F5
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,837
    Bad relay...

    They do go bad, but the only way to know for sure would be to look for 120 volts at C1 and C2 when thermostat is calling.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Issues:

    Please explain that? What is it and why is something connected to "Z"?

    Did you check the voltage at C-1 and C-2 and also at the pump connections? If you have power to the pump, and it isn't running, there is definately a problem. Does the pump body get hot or is it getting hot? Put a stethescope or a piece of pipe to the motor body and to your ear and turn the switch on and off. Do you hear a humm? If you do, rap the back of the casing a couple of times with a hammer. If all the above things are true, and it doesn't start, time for a new one.

    Have you ever used a "Tick Traser"? You just put it on the hot and if the light starts flashing and it beeps, you know it has power. Get one. A good one like Greenlee. Use it always. If you ever ever have a question about a live wire,, test it with the T. Tracer. I hate sparks. It only takes millivolts to kill you.

    Be safe.  
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    didn't see

    where you hot wired the circ and it ran in your posts, now I do
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    where did you hot wire?

    at the control, or did you connect at the circ junction box? Check continuity on both hot/ground wires after you disconnect both ends. 
  • cooz
    cooz Member Posts: 8
    aquastat

    The automatic dampner connection has 2 wires connected to B1 and B2 and a third red wire connected to Z. Z is jumpered to W.

    I have a Tick tester (Not a good one). When I touch C1 directly, it beeps.  But when I touch the wire back to the circluator, it doesnt.

    And yes, when I hot wired the circluator, i did it at the control so i knwo the whole line is good...

    Confused
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Issues:

    The tick tracer shows presence of "any voltage". Now, you need to find out how much and if there is any amperage. You need a Amp Clamp. You may have voltage but no current draw. If no current draw and voltage, the motor is toast.

    At least, that is how it usually works for me.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Issues:

    Do you have multiple circulators? I am questioning the use of the red "Z" connection. The ZC/ZR terminals are for additional circulators that when powered, will start the burner and stop the circulators. Many mis-use these terminals if they use them at all. For lack of understanding on how they work and functions.

    It is a thing of wonderous beauty when they are properly used but a disaster when not.

    There shouldn't be power on the terminal coming back from the circulator or C-2. That is the neutral. Hot neutrals are often an indicator of something seriously wrong.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Confused:

    Your confused?

    B-1 and B-2 are the burner connections.  The "damper" whatever it is shouldn't be connected there. It should be on the primary burner control (orange) so that if it locks out, it stops.  The "Z" terminals are "ZC", Zone Control, and "ZR", Zone Relay. they are either powered, or not. Either or Or. One is powered when the other is not. One sends power to the burner through the high limit and the other sends power to the addidional circulator(s). I don't think it should be jumped. Something isn't right.

    This is an oil system? Or is it a misapplication of this control. It's pretty straight forward except for the XC/ZR terminals. 
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    relay

    Does the relay pull in when "T T" is jumped or thermostat calls? Are there zone valves with end switches?. I'd like to see some pics. There is a wiring problem most likely with the "T T" side
  • cooz
    cooz Member Posts: 8
    Pic

    Yes, the relay pulls on a call for heat.  There are 3 zone valves and they are are working fine as well on the call from each of the respective thermostats.  I've attached a pic of the aquastat.  let me know if you need to see anything else or more of a close up...

    thx

    c
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    I'd like to see

    more pics. Is there an external transformer for the zones? The one in the control may not be enough. I'd like a close up of the "T T" terminals. I think that is where part of the problem is. Also pics of the zone valves, and any exposed wiring running to and from them. 
  • cooz
    cooz Member Posts: 8
    More pics

    Yes,  the thermostats run to another transformer

    Here are some more pics.

    Let me know if you need more closeups..

    Thanks for the help
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    looks like

    It is not wired right. The end switches from the zone valves should be going to "T T". The external step down is opening the valves, but I don't think the end switches are actually making the "T T" circuit for the control? Does the burner fire when the thermostats call for heat?
  • cooz
    cooz Member Posts: 8
    wiring

    The end switches are on T T. As soon as the call for heat happens, the relay pulls in and the burner fires up. Am i missing something?
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Circ. Issues:

    It sounds like it worked properly at one time for a long time. To my way of thinking, if it worked and stopped working as you think it should, what changed? You replaced the control and still have the same problem. You jumped out the circulator and it ran. The only thing left as far as I would think, providing you didn't inadvertantly mis-connect the wiring on the new control, is the low voltage part of the zone valves. Maybe a dirty contact is causing a bad connection when the valve is open? I'd TS the low voltage wiring.

    If you jumper out the end switch part of the zone valve, does it start?

    Did you check all those wire nut connections? A real source of frustration for me, sometimes.

    Whatever it is, it's stupid.
  • Matthew Grallert
    Matthew Grallert Member Posts: 109
    open neutral?

    I'd be looking for an open wire nut connection somewhere.  Somewhere near where you were working....  Sounds like something simple is being missed and having missed really simple things in the past:)  I'd start there.

    peace

    Matthew
  • Joe Mattiello
    Joe Mattiello Member Posts: 605
    circulator test

    the pump should draw close to nameplate amp if the pump is working per design.  if the amps are approx 1.5 X  nameplate amp, it would be safe to say the cartridge needs replacing. 
    Joe Mattiello
    N. E. Regional Manger, Commercial Products
    Taco Comfort Solutions
  • Joe Mattiello
    Joe Mattiello Member Posts: 605
    circulator

    I would have thought the C1, C2 terminals were not working in unison with the thermostat, but replacing the aquastat L8148, and the pump still not working on a demand makes me think the pump is air bound and not pumping water even though it's being engaged.   
    Joe Mattiello
    N. E. Regional Manger, Commercial Products
    Taco Comfort Solutions
  • cooz
    cooz Member Posts: 8
    Fixed

    The new one was a defective aquastat. Replaced and all is working
  • Patchogue Phil_2
    Patchogue Phil_2 Member Posts: 303
    frustrating

    Man that is sooooo frustrating when a "new" part is defective out of the box.  Makes you go on a wild goose chase for something else when there isn't anything else wrong.



    Was it a rebuilt/remanufactured aquastat?
  • rick in Alaska
    rick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,179
    aquastat

    When I have a problem with a burner or circulator not working, I check the output power of the aquastat. On the 8184 control, I have seen probably 50 where the circuit board was bad. Usually the foil on the back is blown out or the solder that is used on the relay contacts has cracked due to the fact that they used a very minimal amount of solder on them in the first place and the fact that the action of the relay opening and closing jars the joint loose.

     This problem has been out there for a few years now. However,they didn't start showing up until the controls were out of warranty.

     Glad you got it fixed.

    Rick in Alaska
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