Vibrating Munchkin boiler???

Ironman

You've Got It

Another issue here is that connecting the indirect to the taco pump panel forces the primary to be a high temp loop all the time unless an isolation relay is added to signal the boiler that the call is for DHW. This is where the Vision 1 control would have resolved all these issues.

Ironman

Burner Fan

Have you tried removing the fan and visibly checking it for a problem?

Mark Eatherton

I don't think you are giving the SIT controller on this boiler enough credit...

I have installed a LOT of Gianonni's with the SIT controller on it, and it is much more intelligent than you might believe. If it sees a significant rise in temperature across its inlet/outlet, it KNOWS there is no flow or load and will immediately start rolling back the RPM's and flame strength.



As for semantics, and the use of primary versus secondary, that battle has been raging since Gil Carlson conceived the concept way back when, and it still has yet to be finalized.



One person says the primary is where the heat source is.



Another person says it is where the PONPC is.



Some people will say that the heat source is the primary, and any other take offs are secondaries.



I've designed and installed systems with multiple secondaries, some as heat inputs and some as heat outputs. Some with multiple and varied heat sources.



Personally, I call the loop with the PONPC the primary, and all other branches secondaries.



That aside, I see nothing wrong with his installation. THe boiler has its own pump, and is capable of seeing a no, or low load consideration and should react accordingly. Is it the perfect and ideal installation? No, but it does meet the manufacturers requirements as it pertains to piping. What if he doesn't want, or need DHW prioritization, and the 3 loops are low temp applications? Then what he has installed is correct.



And the boiler could care less what direction water flows through the tweener tees. In fact, there could be ZERO flow between the tees, and the boiler wouldn't care, in fact might be extremely happy :-) Ask me how I know this...



ME

SUPER DAN P&H

munchkin

It seems like you gotta take the whole boiler apart for that. This boiler was made in april of 2005. How can I confirm which vision system this is?

Ironman

Reverse Flow in Tees

Mark,

I didn't say the boiler "cared" which way the flow was going through the Tees. I was simply explaining what was happening to the flow when the mixing valves bypassed. I was speaking conceptually.



As far as not giving the boiler's control system enough credit to respond when flow or heat transfer comes to a halt, I've seen better controlled boilers flash to steam with the same piping arrangement. - Ask me how I know. :-)



But I would have to respectfully disagree with you about there being nothing wrong with the installation. Running a mod/con at high temp, and then mixing it down to low temp when there were only low temp zones (excluding the indirect) defeats the design of a condensing boiler and makes the system far less efficient than it could be. Not to mention the extra parts and labor that went into the install that weren't needed.



Please don't misunderstand where I'm coming from. I think this poster did an excellent job given his level of understanding of hydronics. In fact, his workmanship is so good that I'd hire him on the spot if he were looking for a job. I just wish he'd gotten better advice about the mixing valves and the Vision 1 control.



 And I sincerely hope that we're able to get his problem resolved.



Happy day after Thanksgiving

Mark Eatherton

Not enough vent....

On page 40 of the I&O manual, it calls out a MINIMUM vent length equivilant of 16 linear feet of combined vent/exhaust piping. If you don't meet their minimum, it can cause a rumbling.



Also critical is the distance between the gas regulator before the meter, and the regulator serving the appliance. If it is too close, these tow reg's will "SEE" each other and will pulsate off of each other. Must have at least 10 feet between regulators.



If you go to page 56 of the manual, you will see how to run the boiler in manual mode, allowing you to adjust the RPMs of operation.



As for which version of Vision you have, unless you have thermistors to allow the SIT control to see the outside air temperature, you have no Vision control. It is the basic boiler without outdoor reset control. Vision 1 includes the wires necessary to allow the control to see outside, and the DHW temperature, and also allows for the separate wiring of DHW pump for priority.



HTH



PS, Glad you used primer. Waking up dead is not a good way to start the day...



ME

SUPER DAN P&H

question

my taco controller gives me dhw priority. I have a check valve on my priorty pump. is this a problem w/ a 007 pump? this boiler was made in 4/2005. i dont know if it vision 1 or 2. how do i identify it?

Ironman

Fan

Is the fan vibrating before or after ignition? If it's before, then there's probably an issue in the fan. If it's after, then you have a combustion issue. This is where we keep coming back to combustion analysis being so vital. Also check to see if incoming gas pressure drops more than 1'' after ignition and when the fan ramps up.



I don't know if some of the earlier Munchkins had any burner issues. Maybe someone else on here could give some input on that.



The Vision 1 is optional.

Ironman

Thanks Mark...

For catching the vent length. I read through his post last night too quickly and thought that he had posted 21 ft. of vent length, not 21in.



I hope that's all it takes to fix the problem.

icesailor

Loopy Munchkins:

JDB



As I look at it, it is piped like HTP calls for (without the thermostatic valves in the crossover).

What I consider it not being a true primary loop is that the ends are not connected and are capped after the connection to the indirect. When the indirect calls, and I believe it is a highh temperature call, the primary loop is a closed loop with the indirect being part of it. When the indirect call stops, the primary loop is open and depends on the flow through the calling loop to provide cooling water for the HX. On low fire, this is OK unless the flow through the calling loop is too small for the flow needed through the boiler.

I'm not in any way setting myself up to be an expert on this but there has always been something that I instinctively disliked about this piping diagram.

On the Munchkins I have done, I always close the primary loop and do closely spaced tees to go to the secondary zones. Or I use bridge loops. But because I use zone valves, I have the primary call start the boiler and the primary pump so the boiler is heating immediately, with no restriction. And when the zone valve has finally opened, it starts the secondary pump.

Being a plumber, my primary consideration is domestic hot water. I want all I can get. That delay in a small indirect can cause a run out. When push comes to shove, running out of hot water is far more annoying to the customer than whether his boiler is running at peak efficiency when the women are in the shower and they can't get the soap out of their hair.

All the bridge looped primary systems I have seen are capped at the end and depend on all the water crossing over in then. If the valves were raised up so a bridge was made, and the valves installed in them, I think the problem would go away. Especially if the vibrating doesn't happen when the indirect is heating.

Sorry is this was already covered.

Jean-David Beyer

I am not sure I understand what you are saying.

Let me call the loops the boiler loop  and the load loop.



In that case, the boiler loop is clearly a closed loop, from boiler output (that I call supply) through the closely-spaced Ts to the boiler circulator to the boiler input (that I call return).



No if I understand the picture correctly, the load loop(s) are closed as well. The picture is a bit confusing, but if I interpret it correctly, the horizontal part of the load loops is the supply (hot) pipe in front, and the (cool) pipe behind it. These two pipes appear to be connected at the left side (as we face the thing), so the return water makes a u-turn and comes to the T that goes through the circulator into the return of the boiler. Now that thing is not the entire loop. I might even call it a header if it were a steam system, or a manifold. Now each  of the circulators in the load part of the system is connected to the front pipe and goes to a load and returns to the back pipe. That completes one of the load loops, of which there are five in parallel.



My own system works a little like this, but there are only two parallel loads, one for downstairs and one for upstairs. The indirect is just connected across the boiler loop. If I had five heating zones, I would consider (I do not know what I would do; get expert design help, I suppose) doing the 4 heating zones in a series primary-secondary setup instead of a parallel one so that the changing demands of the various zones would not interact with one another as in the parallel case. And I would still put the indirect across the boiler loop because the control on my W-M Ultra 3 makes this the most sensible. I think this series approach in what I call the load loop is what you are talking about. In my system, with only two zones, I doubt it makes much difference since my system is zoned with circulators. But if there were more than two zones, it could get a bit confusing as to interactions between the loads. And there, I think piping it as you suggest should surely be considered. I would put the zone with the greatest heat demand first (my living room) closest to the closely-spaced Ts, and the smallest demand (my room with two large computers) the furthest away (measuring from where the hot water enters the load loop).



I do not know if any of this has anything to do with the vibrating that was the original problem. Those who suggest combustion problems have my intuitive acceptance, especially those who worry about intake and exhaust pipes being too short, and gas regulator too close to the boiler (that may have its own regulator in it).



I do not notice any regulator in my WM-Ultra 3. The regulator is outside the house, and it is at least 20 feet of one-inch pipe to the boiler that has 1/2 inch pipe going inside (for gas). There is a "gas valve" inside the boiler that may be a regulator. It is said (I hope I describe it right) it delivers zero pressure and the air flowing past it sucks the gas into the burner. The amount of gas is proportional to the air flow: no flow, no gas. This is to keep the gas/air ratio the same even as they modulate the air flow to adjust boiler output. I guess they could call that a regulator. It sounds a lot like the carburettor of an internal combustion engine, but they do not need a choke, and accelerator pump, and stuff like that.

icesailor

Vibrating Munchkins??/ Where are they:

Mark,

I grew up in Hollywood, CA when the when the LA city school system was the second best in the country. Now, it is down with Mississippi. Thanks to tax savings and cost cutting. We had quality industrial arts/vocational training in every Jr and Sr high school from the 7th grade to graduation. Now, nothing. We sent all the jobs overseas. Few new recruits. I moved to Massachusetts where I was born. I started off working as a masons helper. For a guy who quit school in the 5th grade and regularly reminded me that "I" was working for "Him" and that the only thing my High School Diploma was good for was toilet paper for him to use after certain bodily functions. I then worked for another mason who could do anything but was a full blown binge drinker, drunk. But between binges, I had the opportunity to learn a lot. So, I went carpentering. I was a union carpenter. I learned a lot about things being straight and level. I had the opportunity to go with a plumbing and heating guy who was getting going and had some big jobs. He gave me the opportunity to do a lot of things. Digging in the street, running water and sewer mains etc. Working in the local diesel power plant, doing the installs of generators. Lots of interesting things. We also did big Smith Mills boilers plus residential stuff. Because I had become multi-talented, whenever he ran out of work, I got to other interesting things like remodel his house or other things. We did it all. Plumbing, heating, gas, water systems, wells. Wherever the other guys had a problem they they and the boss couldn't figure out, he sent me. It became personal pride that I never failed.  I got my MA Journeyman's lic. in 1967 and my MA Master's license in 1994. I went in business in 1976. I had employees and I also trained every person who came to work for my old boss. I had a few employees but about the time they were really helpful, they would quit and start their own business. And often take their "pal" with them. So, I just gave up and am a one man show. I never got the same quote from anyone for heating so I bought the IBR books and figured them out and have done it ever since. It all figures in and is all connected. I seem to "see" how things fit together and are inter-related. So to speak.

I've been a life long sailor and a life long suffer of motion sickness. I fly to work every day. I can keep it under control. I see the effects of Mother Nature all around us, every day. And how it relates to everything we do.

An example is seeing vapor form on the propeller tips of a Cessna 402C on certain days when the pilot starts his take-off run and the tip speed of the prop increases, causing changes in atmospheric pressure and causing visible vapor to form. For a few seconds. And it goes away. It forms from the tip to a couple of inches behind the prop. And it is gone. Not every day, and not on many days. Just certain days when the temperature is right, the humidity is right and the dew point is right. Instant temporary cloud.

I was sitting in the right seat of a Cessna Caravan other day, a single engine turboprop plane and we started the run. It appeared on this prop only it was right in front of me. Only this time, it was a round ring about 1" wide. As the prop came up to speed and we accelerated up, it went away.

Cavitation. It happens every where. When the stars align, it happens. Especially (IMHO), in our heating systems. 

The water of life is a wonderful thing. Without it, we wouldn't be here.

Ice sailing? My passion. And there are no waves on the ice. At least, there shouldn't be. And my DN will go 3 to 5 times faster than the wind speed. It generates it's own apparent wind. By the same principles that we use in the fluids we use. Whether air or liquids. An interesting life.  

Journeyman Plumber

Master Plumber

Master Pipefitter

Lic. Well Driller

Lic. Oil Burner Technician

In MA, Licensed Plumbers are also Licensed Gas fitters.

SUPER DAN P&H

Wow, this is really complicated.So many different ideas.

I piped my boiler as per installation instructions for side wall venting figure 4-2 in the venting section,page 19. I added the swing joint to create pitch. I will remove the union since I have a fernco on the exhaust. Yet my piping looks just like that example which is also a short run. I cant find that information your talking about in my book from 2005. Was there a revision?

Mark Eatherton

Wow, sounds like a well rounded career..

Welcome to the Wall.



I made an ice sail boat one time with my father, a Master Plumber. It was made of 1-1/4" sched. 40 steel pipe for the frame, used a 12' tall mast made of aluminum bull float handles, and used some orange curtain materials, once used in a Cristeau art demo done in Rifle Colorado, call the Rifle Gap Curtain.



We dragged it out onto the frozen lake, and I seated myself and strapped myself in, and this HUUGE gust of wind grabbed me and started pushing me across the lake. I had ZERO control as it pertains to direction. I think the wind was blowing about 50 MPH. In any case, I eventually ran out of ice, and beached it HARD on the other side of the lake, totally destroying the skate used to control it. So that was the first and last trip for the infamous ice boat... It was fun while it lasted, but it didn't last nearly as long as it should have.



My brother has a Prarie Schooner, which is essentially the same thing as an ice boat, except it has big fat tires on it. He loves it, but there are few places one can do open sailing here in the Rockies... Occasional unfilled parking lots.



One of my former work mates had a fat tired oversized skate board that he had fashioned a sail to for sailing in the desert for the annual Burning Man event out west.

He got some serious road rash his first time out :-)





Thanks for sharing! I look forward to reading more of your experiences.



ME

icesailor

Vibrating Munchkin

Is this thing on LP or Nat. Gas?

Does it cycle on and off AND viberate?

It could have a "Swirl Plate" plate problem.

I don't want to get into that unless requiired. That is a combustion issue. I'll see what is said and I'll see what I want to say about it. The age is right. It's complicated and I have my own ideas if this is the problem.  

Mark Eatherton

Bob...

No disagreement here. But we don't know the end users applications. If he has panel rad's and radiant floors and radiant ceilings, and baseboard, he may need the mixers to avoid over driving the other loads. Also, if he didn't know about the application of the Vision 1 control, or were not certified (remember it used to be that you had to be certified by the manufacturer in order to gain access to the Vision 1 controls) then what he did was applicable and appropriate. Maybe not the most efficient, but functional none the less.



You and I think more alike than you realize, but we can't control every situation we come across. I am of the same attitude as it pertains to appliance efficiency. The cooler the operating temperature, the better. But even if he did have access to the V1 controls, and he had the above mix of uses, it may have been necessary to apply the mixers anyway, no?



None of us really know the end use emitters, because we haven't asked yet, but what he has should be able to put out heat without creating problems on the water side of this system.



I had a KBN 286 that fired without the boiler pump running the other day (locked up out of the box) and the SIT control saw it immediately, and shut the burner off before it hit the high limit. I was impressed. The boiler didn't even do the low mass dance :-) Which means my sphincter didn't have to do the momba, and my feet didn't get happy and try and run away from my stupified body ;-)



Those Italians are a pretty smart bunch (SIT control is Italian)... And Lochinvars engineers are even brighter for employing the SIT control in their product.



ME

Ironman

Mark's Right

Dantana,



Look at one of my earlier posts above and download the attachment. It's on page 40, right hand column.



Also, notice that each 90 deg ell adds 5 ft. of equivalent vent length. You might try temporarily adding a couple more ells outside at the termination and see if that corrects the problem.

Mark Eatherton

Dan,

I found it in the manual that Ironman posted, and I think it has been there pretty much since day 1. I know the chief engineer for HTP (Brian French) and his former boss (Dave Davis) and in fact had a lot to do with the development and application of their products (I have 3 munchkins floating around different house etc). I am the reason you can't (couldn't) get the V1 control package without having attended a rep sponsored class on the product.



I have to give credit to Dave Davis and Brian French for having the gumption and fore site to introduce the Gianonni concept to natural gas appliances here in the US. He was a pioneer in this area. Many people disagree my statements and position on this, but if they hadn't taken the initiative to do what they did, we'd still be dinking around with near condensing boilers, thinking they are the greatest thing since pre-buttered, sliced bread...



You are going to have to create some back pressure to straighten out the rumbling. The only suggestion I can make off hand would be to put a restrictive orifice someplace in the exhaust vent. Like maybe a 2" X 1-1/4" fitting bushing.. It can NOT trap any condensate, or you will create a whole new set of problems.



Every I&O manual I have ever read has "conflicts" and "issues" similar to what you are dealing with. The manufacturer is trying their best to satisfy every potential installation and application, and get so caught up in the visual detail (drawings) that they forget to double check and make sure that what they drew is not in conflict with other (minimum lengths) requirements.



My suggestion would be to contact HTP's technical service guys, and if they can't get you resolution, go deeper and ask for Mr. French in engineering and see if he can help you. He (Brian) is a very busy person, but has always returned my calls.



ME

Ironman

Agreed

Mark,



My only concern with any manufacturer's controls in this instance is how fast the heat transfers from the block to the thermistors and then how fast the thermistors respond and "send" that value to the control. No doubt, You and I have both seen where flashing happened before the control could respond.

Jean-David Beyer

how fast the heat transfers from the block to the thermistors

I have no numbers, but I suspect it is pretty fast in my W-M Ultra 3. Each thermistor is actually two for reliability. The control even checks each pair and they should be pretty close. One pair is in the heat exchanger where the cool water returns and the other is also in the heat exchanger where the hot water exits. These are in what I have been calling the boiler loop and the boiler circulator, or the DWH circulator, must be on when the boiler is firing. The burner is completely inside the heat exchanger which is a single aluminum casting with a second casting on the front that can be removed for inspection or cleaning.



If you look at page 5 of this brochure



http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/discontinued/discontinued-boilers/ultra-series-boiler/ultratechlit.pdf



you see a cutaway view of the heat exchanger with the burner inside. At the very top right you see a fitting where the hot water exits the boiler (the supply to the heat load). In the very same part of the casting where that fitting is screwed is  another tapping where the double thermister is screwed. A similar setup is at the bottom right for the return, but you cannot see it in this picture. Now for my 80K BTU/hr boiler, the heat exchanger holds about 3 quarts of water. I got the impression (I no longer know where) that the boiler circulator moves (Taco 007) about 6 gallons per minute. If this is true, I get 8 changes of water in the heat exchanger per minute. The piping here is mostly 1 1/4 inch, and is about 5 feet long, so about another quart. For the whole boiler loop, there are about 6 changes per minute.



So I imagine the question is how fast do the thermistors respond. If they are fast compared to 10 seconds, their speed should not matter. I do not know how fast the electronics of the control board are, but they should be quite fast. I do not know how fast the gas valve and draft inducer can stop the boiler once the control decides to do it. My impression is that when the controller decides to stop firing, it goes into a postpurge cycle that lasts about 10 seconds. So I guess that is how long it takes to stop firing.



I am too lazy to calculate how fast 80K BTU/hr can heat a gallon of water., but with that boiler circulator, I imagine it is quite thorougly mixed. I do not suppose that boiler loop can dissipate the heat if no loads are active. 5 feet of 1 1/4" pipe will radiate and conduct some away, but not much.

icesailor

Icy Munchkins:

Mark,

I hear more stories about first time ice sailing disasters. It's kind of like some of the disasters here.

There is more to sailing than making a set of skates, putting a sail on and taking off. For one thing, it is usually blowing too hard when these trips are started. And putting a soft water sail rig is way too powerful for ice.



Check out , New England Ice Yacht Association. We are the largest ice boat group in New England with over 250 members. We have a Yahoo Group.  If you want to see something really awsome, go to YouTube and search "iceratz". Jeff Brown, a good friend. He shot some videos and posted them there. We had some awsome sailing at Lake Winnipasaukee, NH last February. We had around 100 boats over three days on a plate that was about 7 miles long and 5 miles wide. It was awsome. There are two videos. Winni #1 and Winni #2. Two is better. Then, there is one on Free Skates on Waquaket Lake on Cape Cod. These are sailboards/snowboards with skateboard trucks and skates instead of wheels and a sailboard sail. Jeff holds the world "iceboard" speed record of 62.+ MPH. We all carry pocket GPS's to keep track of our speeds.

There's a lake up in CO where some guys sail but from what is reported, the ice is good (sailable) seledom and it blows like stink most of the time. Not fun.

The boats are all home made so what you see is usually made by the person sailing them. I built my DN in 2007. The hull weighs 42# and has not one screw or nail in it. All expoy glue. The whole boat, skates, sail, mast etc weighs 147#.

Someone describes ice sailing as "The most fun you will ever have with your clothes on".  I agree.

SUPER DAN P&H

more pics different angles

6" water column static pressure w/ a 1" drop during fire up.

SUPER DAN P&H

control

i dont have a vision control thats why i used the taco control w/ dhw priority.

clammy

How long has this been installed

Looks like a nice install like the diamond plate is this a recent install or is it older andhas it  just developes this issue ,if it is new i would gather that the offset differental on the gas valve needs to be adjusted ,i had a rumble on my munchkin when i first installed ,my combustion number where good but the offset had to be adjusted after i did the adjustment it was fine and it has been about 6 to 7 years that it has been running and i have had no issues,i also service it ever year .If i where you i would try to get the vision one set up installed and run the boiler at the lowest possible water temp in the long run your boiler will thank you and so will you pocket and system comfort ,Peace and good luck clammy

icesailor

Vibrating Munchkin

In my opinion, which may not count for much, when the mixers are closed and circulating water through the radiant loops, there is no flow in the primary loop. In fact, the primary loop circulator is probably trying to "push" the water into the secondary circuits at all times when it is running.

Connect the the two ends of the primary loop with a adjustable relief/preferential relief valve and it will improve or stop the problem. I think that that is the quick and dirty solution. You could even just connect the two ends and put a ball valve and allow it to bypass until the rumbling/vibration stops.

And if the rumbling comes from inside around the burler fan, there is another issue.

Charlie from wmass

Purple is code for all my inspectors

They will fail jobs if purple cleaner is not used in my area of Mass.

SUPER DAN P&H

trial and error

Couldnt get a hold of a 2" x 1 1/4" busching so I used a 2" x 1 1/2". Unfortunately its still acting the same. The exhaust kinda smells too, like gas i think. Gas valve adjustment needed?

icesailor

Purple:

Charlie, show me in the MA code where it says the primer must be purple?

They can not fail you if you use what I use, Rectorseal clear. I use clear cement. "Big Bill" and "Pistol Pete". I've used Genova purple crud and it just stuck to the pipe and wouldn't wipe off. You can "see" where the sheen is broken and the manufacturers info line is obviously wiped off. When you see the line, covered with purple dye going into the socket, how can you say you properly cleaned the pipe. If the purple stuff worked as well as the clear, I would use it in an instant. It doesn't work well.

Just MY experience. And I've been cleaning it like this since 1970.

icesailor

Munchkin:

Dan, is this a brand new boiler or has it been running for some time and this problem just came up.

Somewhere I thought you said it was a 2005 vintage Munchkin but they didn't have black covers.

What year was this boiler made?

icesailor

Vibrating MunchkinBoiler/Swirl Plate:

Dan,

I asked you but you didn't reply to my questions.

You mentined that this Munchkin was a 2005 vintage? Did you get it used? Why did someone get rid of it?

Combustion issues have been mentioned. You mention that you can smell gas in the exhaust. Is it on LP or Nat Gas?

I believe you said that it doesn't do this in the begining but starts going it, then "burps". Have you tried taking off the cover and letting it run without the cover on to see if it runs any better when doing so?

Is the inside of the boiler area clean and not covered with oxidation?

When it is doing this "vibrating", look VERY carefully at the fan area of the burner and look to see if there is anything unusual there. Like in the area where the air gets mixed into the fan area and air is sucked in.

Some of those Munchkins had problems with the swirl plate and something caused deterioration of the plate with serious deterioration. You can not see it without taking out the plate. It would be wise to get a new one because they changed plastics to a higher temperature plastic on the latest ones. You may have one that has wear. If you got the unit used, it may have had the problem and no one knew it. Or, thought something was wrong and didn't know what it was. I and friends have changed a number of them. Your piping problem may just be masking what the real problem is. A combustion issue. With the computer program in a laptop, you can set the thing up and stop the problem. Which is a bad air/fuel mixture at the start,

Check out the swirl plate. Try this before you start ripping that nice piping job apart.

CMG

jaydiemme

my experience with munchkin vibrations

I have been dealing with similar vibrations from a munchkin mc-50. Occasionally when the units drops to low fire, the gas valve would vibrate, the combustion would be disturbed and exhaust would back up into the unit. The vibration would resolve itself with a "burp" like you described when the firing rate would rise back up.



With the unit in test mode and the firing rate at its lowest setting I can induce the vibration by turning down the throttle screw on the gas valve. The CO in the exhaust would also hit almost 3000 ppm. This leads me to believe that the vibration is caused by the gas valve somehow being starved for gas.



While tuning the boiler with a C/A i could not get the readings low enough without the valve vibrating. Even when getting it set as close as possible, when the unit would shut off and try to restart it would not fire and throw an F9 code (no flame detected) and i would have to turn the throttle screw back up just to get the unit to fire. Gas pressure at the valve is 10 in WC (for propane)



So i emailed HTproducts and their response was, It must be a gas valve adjustment, and left it at that. I called a friend at the gas company and he installed a brand new regulator at the tanks and set the pressures back to 10 in WC. I again tried tuning the unit with the same results.



I then got my hands on a brand new gas valve from a friend andinstalled in with hopes that it would cure the problem. Same results. Im sure I will need to spend some time on the phone with HTproducts to figure this out before it gets really cold.

Charlie from wmass

Ice Sailor i did look it up

Apparently as long as the primer meets ANSI F656-96a it can be used. this includes the clear primer from OATEY in the bronze, dark purple, and tan label. Good to know for the next time I work under a lavatory. The clear primer in the Yellow or the purple primer in the light purple label do not meet the code. Live and learn. I have only been priming PVC fittings since 1976. It may be that the failed jobs used the yellow can clear primer.

SUPER DAN P&H

Brand new boiler

It was made April 2005 as per rating plate on boiler. I just happened to install it this summer at the end of my 3 yr renovation project. It was brand new in box sealed w/ straps.Bought it from a plumber who bid a job and customer cancelled order. Paid $1500 for it w/o Vision Control. I have Nat gas w/ a 6" water column. 1" drop during high fire. I disassembled the burner plate and inspected the fan. Looks perfect since its been in operation since August of this year for my DHW. I have let it run w/o cover and boiler is clean as a whistle inside and out. Same fan/ gas valve vibration and burp at end. Then runs quietly. Radiant loops have different temp requirements hence the mixing valves. Thanks,Dan.

SUPER DAN P&H

Wow, sounds like my problem too

Let me know when you find the cure. Thanks,Dan

Charlie from wmass

Dantana those elbows are really tight turns

The 5 feet per elbow is for drainage type fittings. I vote to change out the elbows for an elbow and a 45 on each side. I think it also needs tuned with an analyzer.

SUPER DAN P&H

Thanks Charlie

Thats a good idea. Should I increase to 3" too. Would that help more?

icesailor

Vibrating Munchkins:

Dan et al,

Check the swirl plate. It is a white plastic thing that has vanes on one side and a venturi arrangement in the middle.

What I think happens is that when the unit goes on low fire, a reverse flow of exhaust will push the flame back through the end cone and start burning outside the cone. It then gets in the space where it is supposed to be mixing air with the gas. It's "backfiring" like a tired water heater burner or a stove top burner. The problem is attributed to a lot of things but if you take the cover off, it seems to make it better. Take that thing apart and look carefully at the plastic swirl plate. If you see visable signs of heat damage and it goes through one set of vanes, through the venturi opening and all over the face of the plate, "I" personally think it is backfiring. The plate can be found with all the vanes completely deteriorated . Once it gets bad, you need to replace it.

I can put you in contact with a guy that really knows these Muncies. If you want to, E-mail me at chris1243@aol.com . The E-mail address here for me isn't working right now. It is a yahoo account and my account was hacked and my computer was pretty much wrecked. I had to re-formay my HD and switch to Windows 7. Some how, somewhere, someone keeps changing my Yahoo password and personal information.

Is this application LP? Or Nat. Gas?

Chris Gordon

dano415

nice install

Nice install!  I think you'll find out your problem pretty soon.  What I don't understand about this board is people getting all upset about colored/clear PVC cement?

This guy needs to heat his home for his family.  Were all not professionals, and

cannot afford to hire supposedly a  "professional" for a major install like this.  In CA,

hiring a professional HVAC who really understands modern hydronic heating is very difficult.  I really admire most you you guys, but the "Professionals" who make some poster write a thesis about their experience(because the poor guy was insulted)--need to deflate the p.s.i. in their expansion tank.  Good luck Dantana.  I curious to find out the problem.  BTW---I don't think Stegenthaler would find any huge faults in you piping.

Plumdog_2

Ice Sailing

Hi Icesailor! What's a DN? I've thought about this ice boat thing for fifty years.  We used to grab a big piece of cardboard and with skates on, take off like a bat out of hell (on Lake Champlain, Vermont). I've seen a few ice boats out at Elevenmile Res in South Park......but the ice can be rough. Plenty enough wind, mostly too much wind I suspect.

This stuff ain't gonna make the Munchkin quit moaning, but I'm sure plenty can be learned.

Mark Eatherton

I think you may have misunderstood the reason behind my wanting to see PURPLE...

The family that died in Aspen did so because the installing contractor didn't glue the pipes together. I am not worried about craftsmanship. I am worried about people that get killed by unskilled people dabbling with things that can and will kill people.



Personally, I think his hydronic piping is impeccable. Hydronic piping doesn't kill people. Improperly assembled venting system do.



ME