second floor heat issues

Brian Maffioli_2

Hi everyone,

Recently I installed a new zone of hot water heat, baseboard and piping in a customers 2nd level. we replaced the boiler about four years ago and ran future lines to the 2nd floor in preperation for the work we did the other day.

We installed the new baseboard and some additional tubing to complete the job, wired the pump and T-stat, purged out the zone and let every thing get nice and hot. next night customer calls with no heat on 2nd floor. I return to try to purge the loop a little more, fire off, and everything is smokin' hot. So I leave, thinking i have solved the problem. next night I get the same phone call so I return once again.

The pump I had serving that zone was a 007 IFC (not 3 speed) and has been sitting there since we originally installed the boiler just waiting for this day but I recall having some problems with these pumps about three or four years ago so on my return trip I installed a 007 F5 with a sweatcheck.

Purged out once again everything became hot and left.

Well, they have called again and I'm embarrassed. One thing that I noticed was that when I was trying to purge ( I never felt like I got a good purge) I felt like the water that I was trying to manually force through was very week and the relief valve was trying to blow off around 20 PSI.

I can furnish more info if needed but I would appreciate some advice before I throw anymore parts at this thing. Interested to hear what some of you guys out there think.

icesailor

Issues:

Why I like zone valves.

#1 Did you put a Amp-Clamp on the circ when it is supposed to be running and is it drawing amperage?

#2 When you purged the zone, were you (I assume, but you know the definition of that) you were drawing on the return side and that the heat emitters on the second floor were getting hot. That the hot water was coming out of the supply side of the boiler and not from the return?

#3 Is the thermostat operating the relay that starts the boiler/circulator.

#4 Is this a warm start boiler and the ZC/ZR terminals have been improperly used?

#5 Have you tried jumping the hot (115 volt) leads from a first floor zone circulator to the second floor circulator to see if the first floor thermostat would make the second floor hot?

#6 What electronics do you have running the whole thing.

The problem is so stupid, you will feel stupid for missing it. That's how I know. Because if you changed the circulator from a IFC (smart) to a regular one, the only thing can be is electrical. IMHO,

Ironman

Pictures

Can you post some pics or a drawing of near boiler piping and controls?



The relief opening @ 20psi and the lack of a good power purge need to be considered further.

Brian Maffioli_2

Issues

We are pumping away from boiler.

T-stat is calling pump on for sure. No elec. problems.

It is a cold start boiler.

I think it is a air issue but can't understand why I can't get a good purge and why the relief wants to blow off at 20 PSI

Ironman

Purging

If, and only if, the gauge is reliable and visible to you while purging, I would manually fill the system to 25psi with the boiler off and cool and the relief valve temporarily plugged and purge it as long as necessary without letting the pressure drop below 12 psi. Keep repeating until the flow is clear and then return the system to normal.



It sounds like the fill valve may have a clogged strainer and the relief or the gauge is faulty.



If the relief is indeed weak, then it should be replaced before purging as this will hinder you from being able to get enough pressure for a good purge.



I'm assuming the system has proper isolation and purge valves.

icesailor

Purging:

My old boss used to tell me to not trust gauges. And I don't. That said, Ironman's way of purging works for him. It doesn't work for me.

I want the boiler hot. Not High Limit hot, but hot. I purge through the return. I have a valve below the purge valve. With zone valves, I always put a ball valve at the boiler return with a boiler drain above it so I can purge the whole system by myself standing alone and not having to run around. I put a short piece of hose into a 5 gallon bucket, or a hose outside. I open the purge valve, and when I do, I open the by-pass lever on the PRV. I let it run with the PRV filling at all times. If I stop, I flip the lever on the PRV. If the hose doesn't jump around before the return water gets hot, there is something else wrong. If the water comes around hot, and you leave it there, and it continues to circulte for some time, and you are sure that the circulator is running, like listen to the pipe and turn the switch on and off, that is OK.

What is the temperature on the high limit? Is the control that runs the boiler like the one pictured in another thread on this board? When the boiler is running and shutting off on a first floor zone, is the water REALLY hot to the touch on the supply piping? Is the thermostat controller running too high? And you are making steam as the pressure drops going up to the second floor?

Try dropping the temperature settings 20 degrees or more and see what happens. I have had these controls go bad and run high. Very high.

Honeywell makes a replacement digital control that costs more money than the one that is there but it will do the job of all those controllers but is just a tad slower in response because of a self test before starting the burner.

Like I said, it is something stupid.

icesailor

Obstructionists:

Brian,

Back in he past and I was smart, learned a lesson. I used to stub out my 3/4" copper base risers before the circus animals got there to hang rock and plaster. I would leave them stubbed up and cut them off later when I connected the baseboard. Then later, I used a copper cap on a 3/4" copper piece and solder it to the riser with a coupling. I can easily remove it when I go to set the baseboard. I could never get the caps off without wrecking the pipe or fitting. Not so with the coupling.

Why is this important?

Once the circus animals dropped a whole wad of imperial plaster down my riser causing a major obstruction.

If the zone is isolatedn put a draw off on the supply so you have one on the supply and return. Get an air compressor and connect it to the supply side and ket it rip. Close the return, charge the zone, open the return. You will know if there is a obstruction. That's why I never leave anything un capped anymore. Too many circus animals leaving too many gifts inside my pipes.

le

le

Sounds like you have a blocked automatic feeder valve or several blocked shutoff valves feeding the individual radiators.  When you purge the system, the radiators will get hot temporarily, then gets cold again, usually after you leave.  And because it's the entire second floor and not random radiators affected, it's something that affects the entire system which would be the automatic feeder.  Try replacing the feeder. I actualy learned that from the book NO HEAT ON THE SECOND FLOOR, when I was stumped and a customer suggested I try the feeder after he read the book.  It worked then I went out and got the book myself.  Try it and l let me know if it works.

World Plumber

Direction

Are both your circulators pumping the same direction? I have seen the bottom floor moving the water the opposite way keeping the water from moving in the other circuit. If your not getting full flow through the pipes then you need to find the blockage. But be sure and look at the arrows on the two pumps. It had me scratching my head when the installers tested each zone separately it worked fine but after both came on together the one zone wouldn't work anymore.