New Steam Boiler Issues

Psteamed

I just had a company replace my coal conversion steam bolier with a new one for my one pipe system. Now some of my radiators don't heat equally (and some very little at all, while others get very hot). This wasn't an issue with my old boiler. Also, there is a terrible smell that comes into the house from the black pipe used. It bleeds into the air. Any thoughts for what I could do for either issue?

Steve_210

pictures

If you post some pictures there are alot of people here that can help you.

Jamie Hall

We do need pictures...

of the near boiler piping.  Any other information about the boiler would be helpful, too -- make, model, etc.



The smell from the black pipe may be cutting oil; it really shouldn't be there, but on the other hand it really should go away with time.



I am inclined to wonder what changes, if any, were made to the rest of the piping when the new boiler was installed?  If there were any, what were they?



A very likely possibilty for problems in the sort of conversion you made is inadequate venting.  It is likely that the old boiler, having a lot more water, built up steam more slowly.  Are there any vents on the mains?  Or does the system venting depend on the radiator vents?



Another possibility, sadly, is that the new boiler may be set for too high a pressure.  A one pipe steam should never run over 2 psi; better is 0.5 to 1.5 psi.  This can be adjusted with the pressuretrol rather easily, and might help.



Yet another possibility is that the water level in the new boiler is lower than the water level in the old one.  That, however, is more likely to mess up the whole system rather than just a few radiators.  However, it is worth asking -- are the radiators which heat poorly all on one return line or main?



But a few pictures and description of the near boiler, a description of any other changes that were made, if any, and a description of the vents will reduce the speculation and get more concrete advice!

David Nadle

How recent is the install?

The bad smell could just be the cutting oil or oil based dope baking off the new pipes. It should go away in a couple of days. The nonuniform heating could be from oily water. Did the company say they would come back in a few days to skim?

BobC

New Boiler Problems

What model boiler is this? The installers should have left the installation manual, go through it and find the boiler piping diagram. Compare that diagram with what the installer did. If that piping is not correct, the system will not work right, below is a generic piping diagram (your steam supply pipes may come off the top rather than the sides of the boiler). As others have said we need pictures of what they did so we can tell if it was done correctly.



Is the water in the sight glass bouncing around a lot? That could be from contaminated boiler water or bad near boiler piping and is almost always made worse by pressure over 2PSI.



David asked how recent the install was and if they have skimmed the boiler to eliminate contaminates from the boilers water - causes surging and can cause foul smells. jamies advise should be heeded as well, we need more information so we can help you.



Bob

Psteamed

Pictures and info

Thank you all for your responses. I've attached some pictures of the system.  I'm thinking that it may need to be skimmed, but I'm not sure the skimming tee is installed.  It seems there is only an end cap.  The system was installed Oct. 25 adn we had some warmer weather after that.  Only recently has it been colder  Thanks for any thoughts or comments.  Pete

jpf321

problem may exist between...

boiler and ceiling...please take more pictures. missing equalizer?

nicholas bonham-carter

new utica

can you take pictures of the upper supply piping. the supplies should rise up at least 24 in. and connect to the equaliser and finally to the hartford loop, as in the diagram, and i can't see whether they got that right.

the 2 tees next to the boiler on the risers can serve as skimming ports.--nbc

BobC

Pictures

Pete,



We need to see how that piping connects above the boiler, try standing further back and take the shot from a couple of angles so we can see whats going on. Also take a couple of shots of the equalizer and hartford loop. Your boiler has the steam takeoffs on the sides but the piping should still be configured similar to the diagram I enclsed on my last post.



Is the water jumping around in the sight glass? What does the pressure gauge read? can you find the main air vent and tell if it's working.



Bob

Psteamed

Above Pipe Pictures

Hopefully this captures the pipe work above.  Also I took a picture of the PSI. It is set at the very bottom and I don't think I've seen the PSI meter move at all.  Thanks Pete

Psteamed

More pictures

Two pictures didn't up load last time.

BobC

Piping looks ok from what I see

The header connects to both steam supply outlets on the boiler and then to the old steam main, from there it goes down to the equalizer pipe. One of your earlier pictures shows the equalizer pipe and how it goes into the Hartford loop; from what I see it looks fine..



I would have come a bit higher with the header but it is probably fine. Did your installer come back to skim the boiler a couple of days after installing it? If your seeing a lot of bouncing up and down in the sight glass the boiler water could be dirty.



Is there just the one steam main that I see in the picture? Also i don't see any main vents, see if you can find them. Modern boilers make steam a lot faster than the old coal boilers did so venting is more of an issue. Give us an idea of how long that main is so we can calculate what kind of venting you should have on it. Also does that main steam line slope back towards the boiler? If it does that is a counter flow system and the main vent may be at the other end of that main. If you find it let us know what make and model it is (Hoffaman 4a or 75, VentRite 35, Gorton #1 or #2 are all common ones).







The fact the pressure gauge shows nothing is pretty normal. If you take the cover off that pressuretrol you will see a white dial that sb set to 1; that means the cutout would be 1.5PSI and the cut in (on the front of the pressuretrol) is 0.5PSI. On the stock 0-30 PSI gauge this is way down in the mud. You would need an auxiliary low pressure gauge to really see what is going on.



happy hunting,



Bob

Rod

Counterflow Steam System

Hi Pete-

   It looks like you have what is called a counterflow system. Your near piping, while a bit lengthy, looks okay.  I labeled one of your pictures and have attached it.  Do you have main vents on the far end of the pipes marked "Main "A"   and "Main "B" ? Also check that you have slope where I've put blue arrows. The slope should run in the direction of the arrows.

Has your boiler been "skimmed"?  How much does your waterline jump up and down?

- Rod

kevin_58

new boiler

There is no drain on return piping. No backflow protection on water feed and looks like they reduced smoke pipe at vent damper.

jpf321

throw a level...

on all those pipes. they should slope as per rod's diagram. if they don't please let us know, you would likely have problems.

ezzy travis

header size

that header should atleast be 21/2" according manufacture specs

venting is a key thing like Bobc said

Psteamed

Slope of Pipes

I can't thank you all enough for helping me with knowing what to look for and to ask.  Referring to Rod's diagram starting with the top horizontal pipe.  That top pipe flows correctly.  The middle pipe seems to be dead-nuts level.  The bottom pipe does have a slight slope in the wrong direction (1/4 of a bubble or less). How significant is that?

When you all talk about venting are you referring to the vents on the radiators in the house or should there be some kind of vent I'm looking for on these pipes in the basement?

Psteamed

Skimmed & Water Jumping

The system has not been skimmed yet and the water level does bounce quite a bit when the boiler is running.  You can see significant particles in the glass tube

BobC

Skimming

Pete,



If the water in the sight glass has debris in it the boiler should be skimmed or perhaps flushed and then skimmed; this can take the better part of a day. Dirty boiler water (especially if it has oil in it) causes the water to bounce around a lot. Was the boiler skimmed after the installation?



The main vents are probably at or near the end of your mains. They have to allow the air in the pipes to escape so the steam can fill the mains. Let us know how long thoses mains are and what kinds of vents you find so we can tell you what kind of vents should be on the mains. the new boiler makes steam a lot faster than the old one did so venting is more critical. The vents on the end of the radiators allow the air in the radiators and the piping feeding them to escape. In both cases, when the vent senses the steam they snap shut.



That middle pipe should be sloped as indicated in the marked up drawing. When was this boiler installed?



Bob

Rod

Boiler Piping

Hi Pete-  I've attached a diagram of a typical counterflow system. As you can see the main vent (s) are located at the far end steam main past the last radiator. Main vents (compared to the radiator vents) are quite large in venting capacity. The large venting capacity is so the steam can quickly push the air out of the mains and have the steam reach the radiators in the minimum amount of time. (Radiator vents are another story and quite often you want the radiator vents to vent slowly.I thought I might mention that as fast venting radiators can cause problems)   It's a good idea, if possible, to mount the main vent (s)  back a bit from the end (12 to 15 inches) so they are out of the way of any water that steam pushes up the main.

Slope- The whole idea of the risers, header and equalizer combination is produce "dry" steam  by  separating  water from the steam. Steam travels in all directions, but water needs slope to encourage flow.  Since condensate (water) is present in all steam pipes slope is necessary to get the water flowing to where we want it to go. Leaving pools of water either by a sag in the pipe or the pipe be level or possibly reversed, can cause the steam to collapse which results in noisy water hammer.

In your attached picture I've labeled a few items so you will know what I'm referring to in the following comments.

"N" is the riser pipes coming out of the boiler. Are these smaller than the header pipe "M"?  Ideally as was mentioned by "Ezzy", the header pipe should be a larger size than the risers pipes.  The change in pipe size slows the velocity of the steam causing water that is sucked up from the boiler to fall to the bottom of the header where it flows back, via the equalizer pipe, to the boiler. This is why the header pipe ("M") needs to be sloped towards the equalizer pipe ("P").   This would be easy to do by making "X" longer than "Y".

I would also seriously consider turning the riser attaching elbow/tee  upward and add an elbows and nipples to change the piping as configured in "Q".  This makes it a "drop header". The advantage to this is the risers would have more of a universal joint to the header pipe and this allows movement  so that the heat expansion of the header pipe doesn't put force on the risers and ultimately the boiler sections. Configured as a dropheader, the steam /water enters the header at the top and the water separates and falls to the bottom of the header. Steam then travels freely in the top half of the header pipe and water travels in the bottom half.

Equalizer Pipe- You mentioned the equalizer pipe is sloped backwards and would therefore trap water. This needs to be changed otherwise you're going to get collapsing steam and water hammer.  From the picture it looks like you could run it down at a 45 degree angle as marked "P".



Skimming- A normal waterline will bounce a bit say 3/4 of an inch above and below the waterline. More than that you'll need to skim.  Skimming is easy. Here is a link to a good article on skimming.

http://www.oilheating.com/index.mv?screen=previousissues

Look in the June 2009 issue on Page 20

The method they use is called “Hot Skimming”. You can also “Cold Skim”

by not heating the boiler water. Some people consider this is a better

method as oil is less likely to mix with cold water. Either method will

work.  To skim- The idea is to drain off the surface water and

contaminates s-l-o-w-l-y. (the slower, the better) To give you an idea

of how slowly, I drain about a 5 gallon bucket in about 2 hours. Usually

you have to do several skimmings to get things clean. Skim, run the

boiler for a day or two and then skim again. I’ve had to do as many as 5

skimmings before the waterline settled down.



If you haven’t  done it in a while, it’s a good idea to drain your

boiler first, flush it and refill it and let it run a while before

skimming. As always bring the new water to a boil first to drive off the

excess oxygen.

- Rod

[color=#000000]Ed[/color]it-  Forgot  to mention that since the header piping is quite large (long) it would probably be a good idea to use pipe hangers to support the weight of the header pipe  thereby taking any strain off the  piping connected to the boiler.

Oak Park Electric

I noticed

As far as pipe size goes, I *think* that header is 2 1/2 as is.  The boiler risers, elbows, nipples are 2", same as the taps on the boiler, but the header is bigger.  Hard to see, but it is.  According to I + O manuals I found, that's acceptable.  Although it isn't shown in the installation diagram, it's not a bad idea to have a drain valve on the bottom of the return where there's a cap now.  Kevin has good eyes...  you need some kind of a backflow preventer on the water fill line, and a plain check valve is not good enough.  He also noticed the reduction in the flue.  The 187C has a 7" collar, and they reduced it to 6".  I don't know if that is really a problem, maybe one of the combustion experts will comment.  They have size charts for BTU capacity of vent pipe.  Get some insulation on those steam pipes, too.  If any repiping is to be done,  insulate afterward of course, but do it.  Use 1" minimum, 2" is better.  Also, as others have said, be sure the mains are vented adequately and that the vents are working.  Keep the pressure low, on a 30 PSI gauge you will not see any reading at the usual operating pressures of this kind of system.  That gauge is there because plumbing and mechanical code requires gauge ranges of twice the relief valve setting (15 PSI) on boilers.  Skim too.  Like Bob said, if there is oil in that water it will surge like crazy and may need more than one skim to clean it.

jpf321

you've gotten quite a lot of...

feedback .. however, make your repiping changes to fix slope issues a PRIORITY before you spend time with vents and skimming. you will need to reskim after the repiping so don't waste your time now.



ROD made you a great diagram (twice) .. a competent steam guy could probably make Rod's adjustments in just a few hours since the pipes are new and unions seem to be in all the right places.



then SKIM and worry about your vents

then after you confirm no leaks, insulate the header (1" thick at least 2" thick is better as noted above) see some of my insulated header pics (2") in my "NEW" system pics below linked from my signature.



do we know where you are located? do keep us posted, but your main focus should be on the piping changes.

Psteamed

Order of Operations

I have the man coming over on Friday so we can talk about the system.  I'll focus on the slope of the pipes and then the vents and skimming.   If anything else major needs to be done, just let me know.

Again, I'm very appreciative of all the comments and suggestions.  You all have saved me so much time and money.   Thanks Pete

Charlie from wmass

I really feel

That skimming the system and replacing, and possibly up sizing the vents will help a lot. Also insulate the pipes. I think the slope will be ok .

Steve_210

I strongly agree

with charlie

Rod

Follow Charlie's Recommendation

Hi - Charlie is a very experienced steam pro. I would do what he recommends and see how your system then functions. The main vent(s), skimming, and insulation have to be done anyway so try that before tackling any piping changes.

- Rod

Psteamed

Vents

Is there any chance my system, which was installed sometime in the late 1800's would not have vents in the pipes in the basement?  I've been looking and looking down there and I can't seem to find anything.  Wouldn't there have to be some place where the insulation is open for the vents.  Throughout the entire basement those pipes are insulated completely. 

BobC

main vent

God only knows when that insulation was installed. A vent would be located near the end of a main or just before the return heads down to the boilers return. If these areas are insulated look for any signs of fittings or couplings (bulge in the insulation) because people have been known to replace a vent with a solid plug because they didn't think vents were necessary - we call these people knuckleheads.



If your system is a counterflow then the vents will be near the ends of each main, can you see the whole main? In a counterflow system the mains all slope back towards the boiler, a parallel flow system the mains start up high above the boiler and slope down towards the return pipe which is at the end of the main. If the main goes into an area you can't easily access I'll bet the vents are in there someplace.



That system is not going to work right without main vents. If it really doesnt have main vents they have to be added.



Bob

Rod

Main Vents

Hi Pete- Being originally very old, it is possible that your system never had any main vents.  Main vents weren't as important back in the days of coal fired boilers as it took a long time for the fire to build and for those old big boilers to produce steam, so there was no hurrying to get the air out of the system and the radiator vents could handle it. The heat built very slowly and was continuously steady.  Today, with a modern "on and off" boiler, heat and steam build very quickly so there is a need to get the air out of the mains as soon as reasonably possible so steam can get into the radiators and do its job. As the burner doesn't produce heat continuously, the venting of air from the mains may have to be repeated for each heat cycle, hence the need now for good large capacity main vents. 

- Rod

Psteamed

Vent Question

How difficult is it to install new vents on old main line pipes like I have?  Do the vents come in a variety of sizes and if so, which size do you think I should get? 

Steamhead

If there's no asbestos on the pipes

they can be drilled and tapped for main vents by someone who knows how.



As to what vents to use- measure the length and diameter of your steam mains and we'll tell you what you need.

BobC

Adding a main vent

How long are your mains and what is the outside diameter (or the circumference0 of the pipe. With that information we can tell what kind of vent you need.



Bob