Improperly Installed Steam Boiler?

dg76

Hi all, 1st time post... long time reader. Looking for some advice here.



I recently replaced an old steam boiler in my house with a new Peerlesss one and since then have been running into various issues. Keep in mind this is my 1st winter, but I did move in in the early spring so I did hear/use the old boiler for some time.



I should also preface that we kept the existing Oil Company that had serviced the house and had originally put the boiler in some 20+ years ago.



1. When we 1st started the heat, there was tremendous water hammer (in comparison to the previous spring). And then black water starter spitting out of the release valves on most of the radiators.



2. The company returned to skim the boiler and clean it... they removed a lot of dirty water and put a cleansing agent in. This seemed to do the trick for a short period (they also replaced a vent on one of the radiators... but soon the hammering and water spitting returned (to some, but not all of the pipes). The only difference is the water this time was now clear. They also came back to remove the cleansing agent.



3. I replaced the vents on 3 of the most notorious radiators... water still appears.



I asked the current installer what the issue was... they said that the house has always had bad pipes, and that the leaky radiators are probably because the valves need to be replaced.



I decided to get a 2nd opinion. Immediately when the other plumber came in he said that the Boiler was not installed properly. That both take-offs must be used and that the equalizer was off etc. This is a plumber I tend to trust and he pointed out the discrepancies in the installation manual. He said we were looking at about 1K worth of work to get it done right.



I notified the current installer and he is coming out tomorrow am to look. He refuted some of the claims I made on the phone but said he wanted to take a look etc.



My question is... should I get a 3rd opinion on this? I tend to think it was NOT installed properly, and that I will need to get it corrected and possibly take the current installer to court.



The plumber that has said it was not installed correctly said he would back us against the current installer etc. Apparently the way it has been installed would have/will cut the life of the boiler in HALF!!!! 



I just smell a fight brewing here and possibly a court date. I would also have to break the service contract with the current installer. Could get ugly.  This is a fairly reputable company I'm currently dealing with but I do understand that steam installations are not an everyday occurrence at this point.

BobC

Botched job

Ask the installer why he did not install the boiler per the manufacturers written recommendation. Most manufactures state the boiler has to be installed correctly in order to perform to spec and be covered by the warranty. It sounds like the second plumber understands the importance of following the Peerless near boiler instructions. If the installer balks at this contact Peerless directly, they may be able to bring some pressure to bear.



It would be best all around to get the installer to see things your way but it's really up to him to admit his mistake and come up with an equitable solution. You are right about most outfits not really understanding how to install a steam boiler correctly. If the piping was suspect they should have waned you and suggested remedial action. it sounds like they are playing at CYA.



Post some pictures so we can see exactly what he did wrong.



good luck,



Bob

dg76

Pics Tonight

Thanks Bob. I will upload some pics tonight. The more I talk to the guy telling me it's not installed correctly the more I believe him.



I'm hearing water sloshing around in the radiators on the 1st floor like a kid in a bathtub. There's no way that is right.

BobC

Wet steam

Your new boiler is making steam a lot faster than the old one did and that makes it more critical that the near boiler piping be correct to ensure you are producing dry steam. It sounds like you might be getting wet steam which is not efficient and can cause a host of problems.



Make sure the pressure is less that 2 PSI at the end of a heating cycle, more pressure is not good. If your seeing more than 2PSI look at the Pressuretrol and see what it is set for. The pointer on the outside should be set at 0.5 and the inside dial should be set at 1 (this is for the most common type of Pressuretrol.



Bob

dg76

Sourced the Issues

There are 2 issues with the installation that have now been described to me in detail by the new plumber...



1. This is a Peerless EC/ECT-04 Boiler. In the installation manual it states in section 3.1 that BOTH Risers must be used for the return system. One of the Risers is capped on the top of my Boiler, and is not used AT ALL.



2. The equalizer is supposed to be at the end of the main, mine is supposedly 1st on the T. He said this wasn't nearly as big of an issue as the Riser Issue.



It's as plain as day. I looked it up in the manual. When the installer comes tomorrow I will point it out to him and get his thoughts.



If he says that they installed according to the way the previous boiler

was I will question why they proposed that boiler size to begin with if

they knew it wouldn't fit.





If they refuse to fix the issue I will get Peerless involved even though it's a plain as day. 



And if they still refuse I will pay for it to be installed properly and begin litigation.



Sound about right to you Bob?

BobC

The right way

This picture shows a generic piping layout for a modern steam boiler. Both steam outlets should be used with the pipe size the boiler manufacturer specifies, with the takeoff for the mains coming after both outlets tie into the header (NOT BETWEEN THEM). That steam header should be  28" above the normal water line (24 is the spec but more is always better if you have the room). The header should then go down to the boiler return and tie into the hartford loop that is fed by the retuning steam condensate. The header and harford loop piping are critical to proper boiler operation.



If all that is done you should be ok. It sounds like your installer is not very familiar with steam boiler installation. Tell him it has to be piped according to the Peerless drawing. Also it should be done in threaded steel pipe, copper can damage the boiler because of the different expansion rates of cast iron and copper.



When everything is working correctly you should install a minimum of 1" pipe insulation on the near boiler piping and all the basement piping that you can reach. It will cost a 2-300 dollars if you do it yourself but it will save fuel and help the boiler do it's job. You can get the insulation from a supply house or order it over the internet. The stuff Lowe's and HD stocks is only 1/2" and won't do the job correctly.



I hope you can get this guy to see the light, but it has to be done correctly in any case.



Bob

Rod

Peerless Boiler

Hi- I have a Peerless EC/ECT-04 and it's been a good boiler. It's in the instructions that both boiler ports need to be used.  Using just one port really ups the velocity of the steam which then sucks up a lot of water with the steam.

Post some pictures and I'll take a look at it tonight when I get home.

Take the pictures in high resolution and stand back a bit so we can trace the piping. In high resolution we can blow up the pictures if we need to look at detail. Take them from different sides and angles so we can trace the piping as it goes around the boiler.

Before I learned about steam the oil company did the maintenance on the boiler. Oil companies are in business to sell oil, not make your steam system run efficiently. They may give you a cheaper deal on the maintenance but you then pay for it in the cost of the oil.  They also generally don't have the best technicians.

"We piped it like the old one" is a ridiculous statement. Why does he think the boiler manufacturers publish an installation manual"? !  

- Rod

dg76

Indeed

Pics will come around 9PM EST tonight (when I get home).



I wouldn't have used this company if they hadn't been the ones to work with the system all of the previous years before I bought the place. Looks like they may have stunk for all this time! Unreal.

Jamie Hall

Sort of general ruminations

inspired by this thread... back in the old days (!) it was not uncommon for their to be one or two really good steam men at most fuel companies.  This is not, unfortunately, true any more.  In fact, even some of the largest (at least around me) no longer have even a Master Plumber, never mind Steamfitter.  Sometimes, but not always, they will have good burner techs.  Sometimes you will get one on your job. 



However, good bad or indifferent they can usually get a burner going in the middle of the winter when it's -10 and blowing a blizzard and they run you out of oil or the burner just gets nasty.  This, to me, is what the service contract is for.  Mine, at least, allows me to have other folks in to do service as well -- so I have a top quality steam man who, while not exactly local, is at least sort of nearby, maintain the boiler and the burner, but I keep the service contract for that odd disaster.  Does it cost more?  Yup.  Is it cheaper than replacing frozen pipes in the dead of winter when the roads are horrid and I don't want to get Charles out of bed and have him drive 50 miles?  Yup...



On your specific situation -- get the boiler installation fixed first, by somebody reliable (the original installer if he'll do it, somebody who knows which end of a wrench is which if he won't).  Then see if you can get an equitable settlement; going to court is a last resort, as I'm sure you're aware.



Then see if there really are "bad pipes" -- but I'll be there aren't.



Just my thoughts...

Rod

What Jamie Says Makes Good Sense

Hi- Jamie makes a good point on having several resources available in case of an emergency.

I first got involved with steam when I took over the responsibility for overseeing the maintenance of my elderly mother's house. i checked the bills and found there had been many service calls yet  the steam system still barely functioned. At first I was quite belligerent as I thought the oil company service guys had been ripping my mother off. I then came to realize they were just incompetent and didn't really understand steam. Unfortunately this situation seems to be fairly common in the heating world. Similar to what Jamie mentioned, they had a good burner tech. Now he does the burner end and I handle the steam end,

- Rod

dg76

Exactly

Rod... what you're saying is exactly what I'm trying to grapple with right now.  As much as I want the problem fixed I'm terrified of having these guys even correct it now.



At the very least I will be bringing my independent plumber back to have a look after they correct.



He is quite capable and has taken several courses on steam...  I would fully trust him if the current installer passes or is incapable of correcting.



In short... he can do it if they can't. But I'd have to pay him and try to get the current to pick up the tab. No small feat.

dg76

delete

dg76

Pictures Attached

Here are the pictures of the installation from all 4 sides. 

Steamhead

It's wrong

not only did they use just one riser instead of two, but the horizontal portion of the header is supposed to be 2-1/2" rather than 2" which is what it looks like. I've attached the piping diagram from the I&O manual, and a couple pictures of a properly-done 2-1/2" header that we installed on a Burnham MegaSteam boiler so you can see what it looks like. 

dg76

Yes

Yes I saw that earlier.  I believe they followed the instructions for the EC 03 Model. This is the 04 model. If you look at the specs between the two, its pretty clear.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Also, I don't see a return...

It looks like this may be a counterflow system, so that piping is really, really wrong.  And that boiler better be sized properly, because oversized boilers on counterflow systems cause all sorts of banging typically.

TomM

well......

hopefully the pros have some ideas of how to pipe with that flue in the way like that.   might be best to start from scratch, but don't take my word for it. 

-

where are your returns?  i don't see any.  is that some kind of bypass piped in copper?

dg76

Updates tomorrow

9AM the installer is coming to talk about how it was put in.



I will discuss the use of both risers, the height of each, the adjustment of the flu and the location of the return.



I also need to discuss the location of the equalizer.



I also hate the copper piping but I guess that's the least of my issues.



Stay tuned.

Rod

Counterflow System?

Hi- I blew up your pictures and traced out all the piping as best I could and I think Boiler Pro made be right in suspecting you have a counterflow system.

In a counterflow system there are no return piping on the far ends of the mains and the mains slope towards the boiler with the lowest part of the main being above the boiler. Could you let us know if you do in fact have a counterflow system?



I've attached a picture which is a blow up from one of your pictures. Could you take some more pictures of the outlined area from the other sides. From looking at the Tees I'm guessing your system has two mains?



 Also look on the manufacturer's plate on the boiler and tell us what model it is. There are several firing rates for the 04, so depending on the unit you have, if it is oversized for your system you maybe able to downfire it.

- Rod

BobC

Boiler piping has to be changed

Several things i see wrong -



* Both steam takeoffs have to be used.

* I can't see the end of the steam main so i don't know how it is getting to the boiler return.

* the exhaust stack has to be lowered to allow the two steam takeoffs to be utilized

* I can't see where the equalizer ties in with a Hartford loop, I don't even see a Hartford   loop - if that is missing it violates insurance codes.

* All the near boiler piping has to be redone if this system is going to work right.

* This assumes it is a parallel flow system and not a counterflow system.



The manufacturers piping instructions have to be followed, otherwise the boiler will not perform as it should and your boiler warranty could be null and void.Do you know what your connected radiation square footage is? The boilers rated square feet of steam should pretty much match the connected radiation (with some additional thrown in for piping loss). A house built in that time frame is similar to mine. I have three column radiators (38" high) that have multiple sections. each section of three columns has an EDR of 5 square feet. So for my style of radiator you walk around the house and count the number of sections and multiply them by 5 to get your connected radiation (EDR).



All the copper i see is ok because its on the water side; you want threaded steel on the steam side but copper is fine on the water side.



good luck,



Bob

dg76

Counterflow

This is indeed a one pipe, counterflow system, similar to the diagram attached.

Rod

Counterflow Steam System

Hi- The drawing you posted is how they used to do it - no header or Hartford Loop.

I looked around for something to show how a lot of pros now do a counterflow system but wasn't able to find anything so drew up a rough drawing to illustrate the concepts.

It uses a standard dropheader, equalizer and Hartford Loop. The difference is that the main has a drip line at the end of the main above the boiler. This drip line drains off the returning condensate so it doesn't fall (and mix) into the steam flow coming up from the drop header.



I've attached 3 pictures of an excellent counterflow piping system done by one of the pros, Steve Gronski. Note the multiple mains and each main's individual drip. This is a small boiler so only has one boiler riser.

- Rod

Mike Kusiak_2

Hartford Loop?

I dont quite understand the need for the Hartford loop in this situation when there is no wet return or other piping below the water line. What purpose does it serve?

BobC

Details count

When you talk to this guy make sure he agrees to repipe the boiler as per page 6 of the install manual figure 3.2 with specific attention to section C2 (hartford loop) and C5 that specifies the height of the header above the water line (more is better) with swing joints. The steam pipe sizing is table 3-1 has to be followed but making the actual header one size larger would help provide drier steam. It would be worth paying a little extra for that.



That will pretty much insure it gets done correctly this time.



good luck,



Bob

Rod

Hartford Loop

Hi Mike- Technically I believe you are correct though in past discussions it was felt that creating a wet return was the easiest way to deal with multiple drip lines and having Hartford Loop would satisfy the typical code/insurance inspector.

- Rod

dg76

So-So Meeting

Well the meeting was somewhat productive.



The installer agreed that any necessary modifications would be made to the boiler per the instructions (as long as the manufacturer concurred). We walked through all of the adjustments and he confirmed they could all be done.



The so so news is he took pictures to send to the manufacturer to confirm/disprove everything we talked about.



He stated that he was told the 2nd riser could be capped... but him taking pictures tells me he knows he's wrong.



He is supposed to get back to me sometime tomorrow. 



The beat goes on.

crash2009

You could

rotate the boiler a 1/4,1/2, or 3/4 turn counter clockwise to get clearance for the second boiler riser.  Looks like you have lots of room.  You could have the controls side of the boiler aiming any direction you want.  Here's a sketch of what I mean.