Condensing Gas

Anthony Possidento

I'm currently looking for a condensing gas wall hung for my own house. I've installed several of the Buderus and would love one, but even at our cost its a little over budget. Do you guys have any others you like I am looking at the Peerless Combi. Any suggestions would be great. I cant wait to finally install MY OWN boiler!!! Thanks Tony

Brad White

Personally

I would re-work your numbers. Regardless of the cost/price/value of the boiler, you are looking at a long-term investment with the near-boiler piping and materials, controls, venting, let alone distribution exceeding the boiler cost usually, including your time. Not discussing price here, but magnitude of effort versus value.



Point being, do not adjust your quality to your budget, adjust your budget to achieve quality; you do get what you pay for.  That said, I like the simplicity of the Triangle Tube Prestige Solo series, with Viessmann Vitodens (100 or 200) and Lochinvar Knight being equals for different reasons. Nothing against the others, just what appeals to me.



Getting back to your budget numbers and assuming you are installing a boiler anyway out of need (in other words, not replacing a working boiler for reasons of energy savings alone): You should be able to demonstrate a payback, a return on investment, going from Plan A -conventional efficiency boiler-, to Plan B, a modulating condensing boiler. 



Replacing a working boiler of average efficiency and reasonable reliability with a high efficiency model for reasons of saving energy alone, rarely if ever pays for itself in my experience I usually advise clients to have a replacement plan in place but wring as much life out of their older boiler (assuming reasonable efficiency), for as long as they can. You may replace it for other reasons, but professionally, I am all about the dollar return.



It is this number which will offset your cost and make your one-time expense fade into memory, knowing that you installed the right boiler for you without the false guidance of a theoretically lower cost.

Jean-David Beyer

No boiler recommendation.

I am not a professional, and am in no position to recommend one boiler over another. I did replace an old GE oil burner with a W-M Ultra 3,  a W-M Ultra Plus indirect, and had the near-boiler piping entirely replaced so there were now two zones instead of one, and replaced two upstairs "radiators" that were three-foot lengths of baseboard with 14 feet pieces of Slant/fin. I do not know what the contractor paid for the materials in general, or the two large items in particular, but I have a pretty good idea by looking at the prices on the Web.



The total job was about triple the cost of the large parts. But the professsionals know that there are labor costs, overhead, permits (more expensive than I had expected), and profit that must also be recovered. The job took about two days with an average of two employees always present, and peaked at 4 employees the first afternoon.



So for me, the cost of the hardware was small enough that items that might seem expensive become trivial in the overall scheme of things. A tiny example: fancy air extractor instead of a simple air scoop. Low water cutoff even though perhaps I could get away with out one around here. Stuff like that.

Gordan

Consider "soft costs" of large-scale work too...

I've been spending every bit of free time redoing my whole heating/DHW system. What's there now is a Burnham atmospheric that might have had 78% combustion efficiency at its peak, and a diverter tee distribution system feeding recessed convectors that are 4" of solid block and 3/4" of homasote away from the cold, cold realities of wintertime. I'll bet that I could count fins on those elements from outside with a thermal camera. I've also got Brad White in a more cylindrical and less whimsical and moustached form, heating my water rather inefficiently. That's what's coming out. The fuel is propane, so you know I'm hurtin'.



What's going in is a Prestige Solo 60 with outdoor reset, feeding radiant ceilings and a Turbomax reverse indirect. If I'm still married at the end of this project, I'm sure my wife will appreciate all the hard work. She won't appreciate the savings because she never saw the bill - that's how I tricked her into marrying me in the first place.

Anthony Possidento

reviews

thanks for the responses. I have just one air handler and will be going with an indirect w/h. I am really looking for opinions/experiences with certain brands. I did also insta the triangle tube, but dont know enought about them.

Andyk

Boiler

I would take a close look at either the Lochinvar Knight or the Baxi HT380. I have had success with both in the past. 

Ironman

Buderus GB142

Buderus has been making condensing boilers for 20+ years with great success.

Unfortunately, we have only been doing it for about 5+ years here in the US, and most (if not every) US manufacturer is on their 2nd or 3rd generation already.



Something to think about.



Also, I personally would not recommend anything with the Gianonni heat exchanger.

EricAune

Budget/quality

If you are looking for quality on a budget in the condensing boiler market you cannot go wrong with a Triangle Tube prestige solo.  I have been installing these since they first hit the market, all without problem.



Another player in this game, not mentioned yet, is the new condensing boilers from Rinnai. These are a water tube boiler with a TON of control features not found on most other boilers.  I have a couple in the field and have had good feedback.  The price (in my area) has been adjusted to closely match the TT's but, the Rinnai has so much more to offer as standard.  Just food for thought.

Steve_210

GB 142

i have a budarus. the only thing i don,t like is it does not have HW priority. heard great about triangle tube + it has a SS heat exchanger but is this really an issue.   

SpeyFitter

Bust your suppliers.......

BALLS! I don't know if you're a contractor or someone who works for a contractor however if you are, pick the boiler you want and have a little talk with your sales rep at your local wholesaler. Also talk to the local boiler manufacturers rep and let him/her know of your intentions. If they know of your expierience in selecting/specing their boilers they should give you a decent discount on their products. Most wholesalers I know of have personal use discounts at the minimum if they know you are a frequent flyer, so to speak.

I'm not going to mention any prices, but I know of one guy who did the above and he was the contractor and the price he was given for personal use versus what I know discounted contractor price is if they bought it for a job was mind blowing - really good actually. Having the boiler you choose to install in your own house, is a huge endorsement, and sales reps and manufacturers reps know that.

Ironman

GB142

The GB142 will provide DHW priority if you use the tank sensor that was provided with the boiler and connect it to the "FW" terminals and the domestic pump to the "PS" terminals.

Steve_210

my mistake

It does have DHW priority because the primary pump has a built in flow check and it,s not running during DHW call. But my 4 heating pumps run during DHW call. I guess this is an external wiring issue.

we installed 1 GB162 and just startind a second.

I can,t see how this can have DHW priority because the S&R to the indirect does not come off the primary loop. am i missing something

Ironman

GB142 DHW Priority

I'm assuming that your 4 heat zone pumps are controlled by an Argo or Taco type pump controller?  If so, then you'll need an isolation relay with a 120v coil.



Connect the relay coil in parallel with the Domestic circulator ("PS" terminals). Remove the factory jumper between "ZC and ZR" on the pump controller. Then wire the "ZC and ZR" terminals thru the relay's "Common and Normally Closed" contacts.



Leave the "Priority Switch" in the pump controller turned to "Off".



The GB162 must have the DHW and all other zones connected on the secondary side of the "low loss header".

Steve_210

thanks ironman

yes i have taco panals i need to pass this on to the electrican. the 162 is piped as you say. does the same isolation relay apply to the the 162 as the 142

Ironman

Maybe

You could get by without the relay in either case if the total amperage of all your pumps was less than 5amps on the GB142. That's the size of the fuse in the GB142 that protects any pumps that are connected to the "PK" terminals.



I recommended the relay because you have 5 pumps on your system (1on boiler + 4 zones) and that may have been too close to the maximum allowable amp draw of 5 amps. Using the relay kept it with only the boiler pump drawing current from the "PK" terminals. Otherwise, you could have removed the jumper between "ZR and ZC" on the pump panel and then connect "ZC" to the "PK" (63) terminal on the boiler. In this case, you don't use the relay. Again, the determining factor is the total amp draw of all pumps connected really should be less than 4 amps to allow 20% safety margin.



As far as the GB162 goes the answer would be use the relay in a single boiler set up, but with multiple boilers and the cascade system, refer to the applications manual.

Steve_210

thanks ironman

it is a single 162 I will let you know how we make out thanks again

Gary_17

PF-50

I installed the Peerless even though it just came out recently because my heat loss is only 34k & I wanted a small boiler to match. The other brands didn't go that small.Plus I got the best personal use discount from them. The PF-50 is so small that you don't even need to use primary/secondary. I'm using a Grundfos Alpha pump w/3 zone valves.The set-up on it is really easy also. The season's young yet so I'll wait & see, but so far so good.

croydoncorgi

Why Permits

From this side of the pond (UK), I'm interested to know why you  might need a permit to replace a boiler with another boiler?  Or, indeed, a heating sstem with another (maybe different) heating system?



And the controls / DHW priority issue is also interesting.  Virtually all current European boilers start out with some means of doing DHW priority.  They have to, because the Flow temperature needed to reheat the cylinder is usually far higher than needed for the heating (especially underfloor type), and the boilers work much more efficiently (and in condensing mode) if the Flow temperature is kept to the minimum.

Steve_210

permits

having worked in london in the late 80,s i can see where you are comming from. 

almost all work here requires a permit. to me it cuts out the cowboys doing bad work cheap. as reguards the DHW priority i am hoping someone else can advise because i too am am having a hard time understanding this