Well McLain Gold GV-4 Series 1 misfiring?

mrichard

Gas,forced hotwater system doesnt fire eachtime there is a call for heat,probably fires every 2-4th time, normal?

Tim McElwain

Does the series 1 boiler

have the original Integrated Boiler Control a Honeywell S9301 control or is it a United Technologies 1013-200?



Do you have the Installation and Operations Manual?

icesailor

GV-4 Misfiring:

I was listening to one do this a few days ago. I caled a gas tech I know who is really up on this stuff. His comment:

You can change this or you can change that. You can screw down on the gas valve but make sure you mark down how mant turns down you make so you can get it back to where it was. When you are all done, it will probably still do it. It's just the nature of the beast.

Have you had to repair the thermostat yet?

Tim McElwain

Why would you be screwing down

on the gas valve? I assume you are talking about the regulator? The term mis firing may have been incorrectly interpreted as the burner mis firing it is actually not firing at all on occasions if I read the post correctly.



I really do not understand your posting ice sailor as any of these systems can be corrected if you know what you are doing.



What is the issue with the "thermostat" I am really confused by your answers.

Ross_7

When was the last time the burner was cleaned?

Maybe you should check out the burner for various insects & debris. Make sure the flue passage ways, and the mesh cone on the burner are all clean.  The procedure is listed in the manual. If you don't have the manual, it's listed on Weil-Mclain's website. I would try this before making any adjustments to anything.

Ross

Ross_7

double

icesailor

GV-4 Misfiring:

Tim,

My posting is a paraphrased comment from a gas tech that I highly respect. Top of the heap so to say. I asked him about this boiler doing what was described in the post here, and that was his reply. The thing would start, not get combustion and recycle. It would usually start on the second try. He works for the LP distributer. They have three excellent service guys. As far as the "thermostat" thing, the early GV's had a internal thermostat to keep them hot. Weil/McLain sub'ed out the valve and the company went out of business. No one could make the valve. There is a service bulletin on these GV's. You must take this big nut off, remove the thermostat asembly and plug the hole with the properly sized copper cap. Nat had done that a few months ago. He knew that the exhaust was clean and clear.

I run into a lot of things where I say, "We could do this, or we could do that. It may not solve it. Lets wait and see. I hate to change things that aren't broken.". He was describing all the things you could try and they may or may not work. It never locks out, just retries. It isn't like an oil burner and locks out on any failure.

Hope you understand,

tim smith

RE: GV boiler probs

May be ignition control, may be igniter. Most likely it could be build up in the heat exchanger ie scale on these early versions. We have found quite a bit of scale after 10 + yrs of operation on these. We have had to totally dismantle boiler and descale and reassemble with new gasket sets from Weil Mclain to get proper flow of combustion through boiler to stop nuisance tripping on pressure switch. I would definately start with the easier ones although. Tim

Tim McElwain

Ice sailor

I went to the Weil-McLain site looking for that service bulletin and could not find it. I assume you are talking about the thermostatic control which functions to prevent thermal shock to the boiler.



It looks like the person who posted the original question has not returned. 



With the Weil McLain Gold series we have to be careful when we talk about them as there are several different versions they have had over the years. I was actually involved with the testing of the original GV series many years ago. I also have one in my training center at Gas Training Institute.



The Integrated boiler controls have been changed over the years and the United Technology version 1013-200 has more diagnostics available, that was why my original request from the poster was to find out which control they have. That way there should be flash codes that will direct us to the particular problem area.



Your LP expert I am sure is very good, do me a favor and ask him what he is screwing up and down on the gas valve? Also ask him which gas valve he is doing this on. The reason I am asking is that system uses a negative pressure gas valve.

icesailor

GV-4

Tim,

The series in question is a series l or ll. I never installed one, I just get to find out about them and/or fix them. The LP gas supplier usually gets to resolve these issues around here, hence, their experience in such things. I guess these earlier models have a thermostatic mixer inside, under the cover to keep the boiler hot when the system is cold. There is a part inside that fails. The tech bulletin covers the repair. You need a big pipe and a wrench, sort of a special tool. Getting the thing apart is difficult to say the least. The boiler in question had never had any issues that I was aware of. I did a new bathroom and someone put a hydro air handler in the second floor attic which I piped up. When the owner arrived from FLA, she was running out of hot water. She called the gas folks and this was the problem. He checked the burner area and it was clean. The appliance wasn't venting into a bush and there are no shrubs near by. I was there getting the air handler going for a Thanksgiving visit. I noticed the short cycling. I called my friend, the gas guy. The before mentioned comments were in response to my asking him about the problem. I have no problem in asking someone for their advice. Had it been a simple problem/fix/ he would have told me what to do. If it wasn't, I would have had him and his company take care of the problem. They have the resources to solve the problem. And the liability for the repair.

Most gas installers here just install. They don't service or repair. Why would they when you can call * Gas and they will take care of it.

I carry a portable CO detector with alarm for when I go into "unusual" places. Most think I'm stupid for carrying it. I've had it go off. What more can I say.

mrichard

message from customer

"If the burner fails to fire after two tries, the system locks out. Most mornings We come down and the system has locked out. When I power it off and put it back on again, it usually does not light on the first cycle but without me doing anything it does retry and almost always fires. On the times that it does not fire, it does get to the point where the main gas valve opens and then it shuts down when the flame is not on.



Burner controller was replaced, igniter was replaced. Air intake cleaned and clear"



Another competitor was there days before they called me,they did the repairs yet its still the same situation.



Thanks for any help guys!!

mrichard

Suggestions?

Sorry havent been able to get back over there



Anyone have any suggestions?

Tim McElwain

What if any are

the flash codes on the Integrated control?

mrichard

response from well mclain

The control is governed by timing. When the boiler receives a call for heat, the inducer starts and proves the pressure switch. Then the igniter glows for about 20 seconds. Then the gas valve opens for 6 seconds. It must prove flame within 6 seconds or it shuts down and retrys. If the burner cone is dirty you may not be getting flame around the igniter to prove flame. Boiler may need a good cleaning.



thanks!@!







cc

Subject

Boiler tech help



I didnt notice anything led's flashing when I was there,everything fired up fine after 2 tries. I was there in the afternoon and customer says its mainly happening in morning,so I will have to try to schedule them for a morning appointment.

icesailor

Misfiring: Tim Mc,

Tim, a question for you:

Does this unit have a ignitor that doubles as a flame sensor/rectifier? If it was cracking or was cracked enough to pas power for the spark, and was cold, could it not start the first time but when hotter, make a connection?

If it is a combo unit, you couldn't put a ohm meter on it. If it is just a flame sensor, could you put a ohm meter on it and does it have a value? I had a oil burner that gave me fits. It ran fine but would stop while running with a great appearing fire. I finally put a ohm meter on it and because of excessive overfire draft from a powerventer, the "eye" saw less flame than it needed. The controll would lock out at 1600 ohms and the unit was running at 1200. When I got it down in the 700 to 800 range, it stopped.

Meters Rule!!

Kind of like blood sugar, and diabetes.

You can lie to yourself, you can lie to your doctor, but you can't lie to your meter.