New Knight design

Jeff W_2

New heat exchanger (fire tube) on the wall-mounted units....should be interesting....details coming out now....

SpeyFitter

Already?

So you're telling us that Lochinvar has a new fire tube heat exchanger for their Knight wall mounts - I'm assuming if this is the case its an in house design?

SpeyFitter

Phoned the local Lochinvar Rep today

I phoned the local Lochinvar Rep today about this and he had no knowledge of it (and he's generally quite honest and upfront with me). If it's true, it must be quite new.

3D

Knight FT

I was listening in on a web class this week and found this out about the new heat exchange that you have been mentioning.

Mark Eatherton

Le Cat....

is out of Le Bag...as inspector Pluseau would say.



Yes, this is the rumored boiler of the future I mentioned a while back. The only disappointment I have is that I was under the impression that the new beast would have a 10 to 1 turn down ratio.



Same great control as the other Knight products. Same great support teams and reps.



Other than that, it looks like the bees knees :-)



I look forward to my first placement :-)



ME

kcopp

interesting they...

state that the venting in PVC or Stainless. Strange they didn't do it in Polypropylene.

Brian_19

Triangle Tube

Looks like  a Triangle Tube heat exchanger to me.

3D

FT Hex

I would imagine that the new hex is made to be similar to the triangle tube because it is the only one on the market that does not have such stringent flow requirements.  My opinion is they are taking the best controlled boiler and putting the best hex in it on the market, hope they get some out soon to try out.

SpeyFitter

Electrical consumption

Anyone know what type of stainless steel it is made out of it? I'm guessing it's either 316 L or 439.

This is not the first boiler manufacturer of mod-cons who has switched to a fire tube lately as I pointed out in another thread recently (or appears to be anyways). After spending some time thinking about it, I'm starting to become a little more interested in the fire tube style just to see how it performs. The mass, and low head loss ARE attractive for various reasons, and what a lot of guys seem to forget is fuel usage and efficiency is one thing, but there's all the little things such as electrical consumption of pumps and accessories that play a part on top of added associated piping. Having a heat exchanger that you can potentially "pump through" with less pump and less pump power without the added cost of potential secondary loops in some cases can signifcantly reduce complexity associated with design, the need for low loss headers or P/S piping, etc.

I do agree that the Knight is defiantely one of the best controlled user/installer friendly platforms on the market today as well. I just wasn't much of a fan of the Giannoni.  They are also pushing 96% without some type of Lamda pro on this set up.

Ahab

Nice..

But we won't be able to sell customers on a two hour annual cleaning job! I wonder what they'll do about the higher capacity models. I have a hard time picturing a 750K Triangle HX...

TonyS

Is this unit actually

made in the USA? 

SpeyFitter

wall mount only.

This is supposed to be for their wall mounts only for now. From what I have heard, they will still be using Giannoni HXs for their floor mount boilers.  I very much doubt that we will see anything over 399,000 for a wall mount in the near future. But you never know I guess....

aemeeich

Any idea on release date?

So does anyone have an idea on when these will be available?  I am planning on putting in a WBN 081 in my own house in the next month. 



I'm guessing the new design won't be available before the end of the year, so the choice is either the old style Giannoni and get the tax credit, or wait a couple months for the new design but pay alot more for it.



Michael

Bart Vaio

Solo

That is definately a hopped up TT Solo.  ACV Heat Exchanger.  Almost the same case, same condensate trap, new control and new paint.  Sure would be nice if they could step up the turndown to 8:1 or 10:1 is that an attainable goal at our current price points?

Viess

Old design new Spin?

The problem with any boiler manufacture that's beholding to share holders will always be profits over quality. Out sourcing parts and labor. Inadequate R&D. Following not leading. Viessmann has the best HX on the market bar non.

Gordan

I'm a big fan of Viessmann products, but...

It is a company, not a charity, and I'm sure the profit motive applies to it as well.



Remember that the WB2B is not an improvement on the WB2A in every regard. In certain ways (for example, a lack of boiler-controlled variable-speed pump) it's a step back, else its sharply lower price would be completely mystifying.

Randy_30

Pioneer by HTP

"I would imagine that the new hex is made to be similar to the triangle

tube because it is the only one on the market that does not have such

stringent flow requirements."



Apparently you haven't heard of the Pioneer. It is a true fire tube design with almost no flow requirements. 

TonyS

Viessmann has the best HX on the market bar non

You Viessmann guys make me laugh so hard sometimes I almost piss my pants!

Viessmann the non profit company who does it just because they care! Spare me!

Slimpickins

in regards...

Boiler envy much?

3D

Pioneer

I suppose that you have not heard of the Voyager, or repalced any?  Good idea in theory, now has had 3 names.  It is still just a water heater with a boiler control on it.

Loch PM

Turndown Limitations

Gents, the manufacturers would love to give you more than 5:1 turndown (within reason for a single combustion system).  Most residential boiler manufacturer's products are certified to the ANSI Z21.13/CSA 4.9 Construction and Safety Standard for Gas-Fired Low Pressure Steam and Hot Water Boilers.  Within the construction standard there is a limitation for the minimum input to be no less than 20% of normal firing rate. 

Section 2.3.4 of the standard states as follows: "The manufacturer's specified minimum input rate shall not be less than 20 percent of the manufacturer's specified normal input rate."

This means 5:1 is the best we can offer with a single combustion system.

NRT_Rob

there is a big difference between public and private companies

public companies are not ALLOWED to prioritize the long term. They are legally mandated to maximize shareholder return and generally that is not defined over the long term.



Private companies can do whatever they like. some care, some don't. Hard to tell which is which. but the option is there far more than with a publicly traded company.



ditch all the hyperbole, and that's the basic fact.

Gordy

IBC Technologies VFC series boiler

 So How does IBC get around this....Canadians?



Gordy

NRT_Rob

easy

two burners.

SpeyFitter

NOT 2 burners.

NO, the IBC does NOT have 2 burners. The IBC got away with 10 to 1 on their 15-150 by questioning what "normal" meant in the "A boiler can only fire down to 20% of it's specified normal firing rate," when they had their boler certified. Whomever made the final certification must have agreed with them when they questioned it.

Keep in mind that the IBC is not the only boiler on the market with more than 5 to 1. The NY Thermal/Giannoni mod-cons have modulation rates that exceed 5 to 1 as well. In the 6-8 to 1 range if memory serves - check their website.

Gordy

Scott K

 So your saying that it was as easy for IBC as questioning the 20%  limitation?   No one else in the industry thought to ask or question it. except NY Thermal.... Interesting.



Gordy

Mark Eatherton

I have it from reliable sources...

from numeorous manufacturers as a matter of fact, that most of these appliances have been tested with a 100:1 turn down capability, and that under most conditions (exception being wind loading) they proved very clean and reliable.



I think it is time to update the ANSI standards to reflect the recent changes in technology.



With a normally aspirated, atmospheric burner, there ARE limitations to turn down before flash back can occur, but this ain't your grandpa's burner any more.



Time to change the oil in your Dinosaur ANSI???



ME

NRT_Rob

really?

I could have sworn on a stack of bibles it had two staged gas valves in it.



I thought I just read it in a manual or something though, I haven't seen a unit in person.



if I'm wrong, my apologies. I was pretty sure of that, but it's not the first time I was sure of something I had wrong.

Gordy

Quiet on the Knight side

 Still wondering how it is the Canadians got around the ANSI. and no one else. Can't believe the Germans would not challenge this. I can't believe no one else thought to challenge it. After all does not hurt to challenge or ask.



Testing at 100:1 turn down?  Mark you are right time to evolve. That's like the accelerator pedal on a car having 5 settings or 100..



 I certainly Can not believe that a larger turn down ratio is not that big of a deal to pass by.



Gordy 

Gordan

Especially since...

...the Germans don't even have a 5:1 turn-down ratio. Or at least aren't advertising it as such. Ditto for the Belgians. So, they don't even claim what's allowed under the ANSI standard.

SpeyFitter

IBC

I am just relaying information based on what I have been told, but if you check the IBC data, it clearly states it's approvals which were based on a 2000 verson of certification or something like that if I'm not mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong). Perhaps it was the person who did the certification at the time and their interpretation of the rules. Perhaps it's got something to do with the fact that IBC has been out just as long as anyone in the mod-con market (I believe they started up in 94) and they had their 15-150 certified I believe somewhere in the 2001-2003 range (I know 2003 or earlier as I serviced 2 of these boilers of that era last year).

I'd really be interested in hearing how NY Thermal has more than 5 to 1 as well.

There is no 2 stage regulation last I checked, just one zero governor gas regulator like pretty much every other mod-con out there.



EDIT Just read the IBC Instruction manual - the 15-150 was cetified to CSA 4.9-2000 / ANSI Z21 13-2000

SpeyFitter

NY Thermal modulation ratios

Here is the NY Thermal data on their mod-cons



BTU Input x 1000

15-100

25-150

25-200

75-399

Boiler Modulation Ratio (respectively)

6.6:1

6:1

8:1

5.3:1

Gordy

Ts-80

They got a Ts-80 to but I cant seem to find much on its modulation ratio. Is this a new one from NY thermal?



Gordy

SpeyFitter

TS-80

Gord,

The new TS-80 has a 5 to 1

I found the instruction manual here: http://www.nythermal.com/uploads/file/Trinity%20Ts80%20Installation%20and%20Operation%20Manual%20V%202010-06-15.pdf

and a few pages in it lists 16,000 to 80,000.

SpeyFitter

Noticed a few things

Back on topic here - I noticed on the press release on their website it says there are now 7 models for their wall mounts with this new heat exchanger, from 55,000 to 399,000 input.

So this means the small boiler has been bumped up from a max 50,000 BTUH input to 55,000 BTUH input, with 5 to 1 I'm assuming it has a 11,000 BTUH low fire. I wonder why they added the extra 5000 BTUH? And how much have the other boilers inputs changed from their current?

Also, what are the 2 new models? The old/current line up is 50, 80, 105, 150, and 210. That's 5 models. I presume the new models will be around the same BTUH, and the 2 new models are larger than the existing line. There is obviously a 399 model, and I presume a 285ish model maybe? Any info on this?

Also, I noticed in the picture that the removeable front boiler cover is a different design than the current set up, presumably to access components for either installation, or service, or both. The heat exchanger is up and down due to being down firing now. I'm not sure which model is pictured on the website, but how much variation will there be in physical boiler size? I like the 29 1/2" height accross the board on the current line up, however will the heights of these boilers now change due to a longer "can" (I assume anyways) for the larger sizes?  Also, the boiler pictured, to me appears as though it's already longer/taller than the existing boilers, am I right?

CMadatMe

Step Back?

Lamda Pro combustion is not a step back. It's a major step forward. The gas valve modulating indepedent or air. The ability to measure in coming gas mixture and pressure and adjusting on the fly. Combustion test on every start. These are major steps forward. Much more advanced than the WB2A,

SpeyFitter

Viessmann

EXCEPT that they don't have a boiler with a low firing rate i.e. sub 20,000 BTUH, and we'd like to see some boilers that at least make a 5 to 1 firing ratio. The fact that the minimum firing rate increased from 25,000 to 31,000 BTUH on their smallest boiler in my opinion was a step back.  Yes, yes, Viessmann will tell you that the low firing rates they can't maintain a good flame or something along those lines, but you'd think a technology such as Lamda would enhance this potential. 

Also, the savings from this new burner technology might be negated in comparison to a similar boiler that has better modulation ratios with respect to short cycling, wear and tear on ignition components, etc.

Tim McElwain

ANSI Standards are very very slow

to change.



The standards that determine turn down are related to older atmospheric boiler requirements. All boilers and furnaces by the way are tested for burner turn down test. There are two criteria that can be followed.



One is that the unit has to fire safely at 1/3 of input. Now that is actually not one third of say the BTU input but 1/3 of the outlet gas pressure setting say 3.5" W.C.roughly about 1.16" W.C. The burner under 400,000 must light safely within 4 seconds or less to pass that test. This also affects two stage gas systems in the the first stage must usually equal or exceed 1.5" W.C.



On some step opening gas valves it may go slightly lower to say.9" W.C.



The other firing option has to do with a base figure considering 100,000 BTU's at 20 % of operating BTU or around 20,000 as a minimum firing rate. Burners must pass both tests.



I am over simplifying it because it also has to do with burner design and air to gas ratio and how that is accomplished.



Typically when certification is taking place the OEM has some leeway with the testing folks to prove that they can meet all the safety perimeters and still get the special performance standard for their particular piece of equipment.



As has been for many years it takes along time for the standards to catch up with technology. The technology is moving so fast in the past few years it makes it seem even more difficult.



The combustion side of what we are talking about can get very complex and as we have seen not every burner/combustion blower design proves to be able to function without some difficulty.

SpeyFitter

Firing Rates & Ratios

Hey  Tim,

From what you know or understand (or perhaps some manufacturers can chime in) - when the mod-con manufacturers go to certification, do they "protest" these old standards and limitations on firing ratios? Have they? Has anyone performed test data showing they can easily do more than 5 to 1, documented it, and sent it in? Are manufacturers actively pushing to have this changed? Do the people who make this standard, of which it gets updated every few years or so, know this? Do they understand it's importance?

Also, does the EPA know that such limitations do affect efficiency of the appliances due to potential short cycling, especially if they are slightly oversized which may happen in a lot of cases where someone needs the DHW output from an indirect?

Thanks,

Scott

aemeeich

New WHN dimensions

The Lochinvar website has a 4 page brochure for the new boilers which includes the dimensions.



WHN 055, 085                    33 1/4" high, 18 1/2" wide, 11 3/4" deep.



WHN 110, 155, 199, 285     33 1/4" high, 18 1/2" wide, 14 1/2" deep.



WHN 399                           35 1/2" high, 25" wide, 17 1/2" deep.

Henry

Lochinvar

I was at the plant this week with several contractors from Quebec. In Quebec, we have the highest boiler replacement to mod/con anywhere in NA due to green subsidies form the utility. The provincial government has mandated all the utilities to go green. Since most of our installs are commercial, much was about the floor standing Knights and not the new wallmounth boiler. The new Smart control is fabulous! Lochinvar does listen to contractors! After a visit from contractors from Quebec, they added insulating sheets on top of their heat exchangers.



What is really exciting for us is, the new CREST firetube condensing boiler that goes all the way to 3.5 million with the LARGE screen Smart control. We saw the production line being built for it, a number of lab units, some units being assembled etc... It looks like a three pass unit with S/S tubes in a steel envelope. It use two burners one for low fire modulation and the other for high fire modulation. It is a copy of the wallmounth in large scale. It is a patented design heat exchanger by Lochinvar. The amazing thing about the unit is it's small vent diameter: 3.5 million and 10 inch vent!

Of all the boiler manufacturers tha I have visited in the past 10 years, Lochinvar is the one with the most production lines building mod/con boilers! It is also the only one that can change production of certain models day by day! It is a 3rd generation FAMILY owned business with the 4th generation working in various departments.



For us contractors, I cannot say how much the new Smart control is great! it is in colour. It warns of service issues and turns red to tell you WHO to call when one has a failure.



Regards,

Henry