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IBC Technologies VFC series boiler

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Gordy
Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
 Just Curious now that these boilers are becoming available in the US market what the thoughts are on them.



I like the low head HX similar to the Triangle Tube HX.



How is it IBC can achieve a 10:1 turn down when the rest of the industry has not? Is this proven stable?

This seems like a nice feature with a modulation range of 15k to 150k with the VCF 15-150 series. Low enough for the shoulder season, and extra Btus for those below design day conditions that come once in a blue moon.



In comparing the same class SS hx boilers.  IBC to the Knight, TT,The big V, HTP. Which boilers would the installer base prefer based on features, reliablity, and support?  Not comparing price.



Gordy

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  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,548
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    If I

    had NG available in my home,which I don't.I would install a Vitodens with Triangle Tube a close second. I wouldn't  have a Giannoni HX in my house. If you have held a Viessmann HX and Giannoni in your hands the answer would be self evident.
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  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Robert

     So your saying the IBC HX is a Giannoni design? Seems to be more TT with the low pressure drop, and down fire design.



    Gordy
  • SpeyFitter
    SpeyFitter Member Posts: 422
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    Not Giannoni.

    The IBC VFC Boiler is NOT a Giannoni design. It is their own design. They have a 316 Ti (same material Viessmann uses) heat exchanger that is down firing with 3 rows worth of coils as opposed to 1 row worth of coils (e.g. Viessmann, Giannoni). If I'm not mistaken, the outside coil/water travels up on the outside most row, then the water gets pushed down the middle/next most inside row, and then up the inside row closed to the burner and out. The supply & return come in/out on the right side of the boiler which makes for a nice primary/secondary set up worth of piping. The Burner is a cylinder burner that hangs upside down (as opposed to horizontal like Viessman/Giannoni) and it projects it's heat outward (358 degrees like most cylinder burners) at the inner most row of coils. The condensate/flue gas (assuming the return temp is low enough) then gets pushed between/through the coils and out the bottom. The condensate  "plinkos" it's way through the rows of coils towards the bottom outlet where it drains down through an externally installed (in the vent piping) condensate trap (supplied with the boiler).

    The IBC's heat exchanger is sort of a similar concept in being down firing/self cleaning as the TT, but it's got coils instead of fire tubes like the TT (so it's a "water tube") if it's fair to say. This heat exchanger is also a VERY large heat exchanger (95 pounds for the heat exchanger alone) compared to the competition for a given BTUH rate/range so it is able to soak up a lot of heat both at lower and upper firing rates of it's BTUH rating. I can tell you from expierience I have seen this exact pheonomenon using a flue gas analyzer (and different flue gas analyzers too) on different boilers with virtually the exact same efficiency at the same return temps at both max and min firing rates. In fact the last IBC I commissioned several weeks ago it was pushing 98.7-99.3% steady combustion efficiency with about 75 degree return temps at both high and low fire.  The IBC's 15-150 and 45-225 both use the exact same heat exchanger and the same burner. The only difference is the fan (larger on the 45-225 obviously). The Integrated control, and everything else is pretty much the exact same. The Venting they have is extremely flexible and there aren't any issues with the potential for chlorides to leech back on the heat exchanger if you decide to use PVC/CPVC.

    The IBC 15-150's 10 to 1 firing rate IS a pheonomenon amongst the industry as you typically don't see turn downs that large until you get into industrial burners. I can tell you that from what I've been told that this firing rate was certified when IBC apparently questioned the certification rule that states a 5 to 1 turn down max of normal firing rate by questioning what "normal" meant. This allowed them to get to 10 to 1 (when they went to certify the 45-225 later, they weren't allowed more than a 5 to 1). I have personally serviced at least two 6-7 year old 15-150's that were installed in 2003-2004 that were in great shape and had not been touched up until that point. The heat exchangers needed cleaning but they weren't too bad.



    They just recently came out with a big brother to their other boilers, the SL 80-399.

    I don't want to sound like a greasy salesman here, that's not my intent - the above are FACTS about this boiler.  

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  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,548
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    Not

    familiar with IBC. I assume it's a small Canadian co with very tiny market share in the USA?  You mentioned Knight and HTP as being in the same class,so I assumed it was a Giannoni. I see I'm wrong and stand corrected. They very well may have a better mousetrap but gaining market share is going to be a hard row to hoe! I don't expect them to be a serious player in the US market in the foreseeable future no matter the merits of the product
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  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,629
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    I have not had a chance to really take

    a look at the IBC, Richard Tretheway and Dave Walsh over at RST here in New England (Richard used to sell Viessman) really like the unit and are selling it.



    I spoke to a Ray Collver Sales and Marketing Director from IBC at a trade show and looked at the unit and I was impressed.



    I will post something after I get more of a chance to look it over in the very near future.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Tim

     I'm looking forward to your input. This boiler seems like a breath of fresh air in the Us market. Priced like a V, but I like the design.  Low pressure drop in the HX 10:1 modulation.  Wondering about support, parts availability ect.  I would think it would be good in order to gain market share in the US.



    Gordy
  • SpeyFitter
    SpeyFitter Member Posts: 422
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    IBC parts

    I can tell you from expierience that most of the main replaceable/serviceable parts you will need to service the 15-150 and the 45-225 can be carried in your standard stanley organizer (deep, yellow bin version). I usually would carry a few igniters, some extra screws in case I lost them by accident, a burner coupler plus extra burner & fan coupler gaskets, an extra site glass/view port for the heat exchanger (just in case), etc, etc.  It's a pretty straight forward unit.

    The Controller's digital display is one of the best you can get in my opinion (which they've had on their boiler since 2002-2003 if I'm not mistaken?) The Lochinvar Knights new controller/display has a few extra features/options (e.g. ramp delay, etc.) that I'd like to see on the IBC, but they're comparable, only the IBC has more rows on the display so you can see more information and the IBC's is a bit more straight forward me thinks. All the wiring terminals on the control board are very user friendly and you don't need any external pump relay or pump module controllers (or to build your own). They have 3 temperature/load switching built in so the control box can control 3 secondary pumps (loads) plus the 1 primary pump. This is slightly different than the (in my opinion) confusing way Lochinvar decided to do it with their revamped controller with 3 temperatures where the guy at the Lochinvar training school I went to couldn't really explain it (just being honest) in a way that everyone in the audience could understand and then IBC's control came up as an internal group discussion.  The thing that is nice about this boiler? The tappings that you screw your gas line into - they are SOLID. The supply & return for the hydronics - SOLID.

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  • SpeyFitter
    SpeyFitter Member Posts: 422
    edited November 2010
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    New 80-399

    This is the new spec sheet for their new Boiler the 80-399: http://www.ibcboiler.com/PDF/SL_80-399_specs.pdf

    This boiler shares a few parts with it's little brothers (noteably the controller) but it's mainly a ground up new design. I saw this unit just before it came out in person at the IBC head office in May of this past year and they use 439 Ti stainless steel instead of 316 Ti like on the smaller boilers.

    The thing I'd like to point out on their spec sheet is the extremely low head loss of their heat exchanger at fairly high flow rates. 6 feet of head at 45 gallons per minute? It really makes me question if they have a significantly different design compared to their smaller boilers. The heat exchanger is still down firing I noticed from my glance at the internals, and the exchanger itself is shaped in a tapered "can" instead of a straight up and down "can" like their smaller boilers. I'm gonna have to maybe stop off at IBC in the next few days if I have time and ask some questions!



    Oh yeah - a rumour for you guys - last I heard they are working on smaller boilers.

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  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,658
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    IBC vs Viessmann

    It will be interesting to see if IBC can establish a solid foothold in the NE. They do not have a distributor, rep or wholesaler in the Seattle area. While Viessmann has a limited presence here, they do have a manufacturers' rep and a wholesaler. 



    I've seen the IPC boiler and it seems to be made exceptionally well. The issues are distribution, parts availability and tech support.  It's sort of obvious that RST will do a great job selling and promoting the line.  On the West coast, if the appliance does not have a local outlet based in the USA, it's like singing in the shower. 
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
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    I have contacted them twice.......

    ........once by phone and the other via contact form on their website.  No answer or return call.  I was/am interested in the line, but I sense getting eqipment is going to be problematic here in the East.

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  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,629
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    Heatboy

    try



    Ray Collver, Sales and Marketing Director



    IBC Technologies Inc.



    1543 Venables Street



    Vancouver, B.C. Canada V5L 2G8



    Office 604-877-0277 



    Cell # 250-317-2283



    rwc@ibcboiler.com
  • SpeyFitter
    SpeyFitter Member Posts: 422
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    Fire Tube

    IBC's 15-150 and 45-225 are "water tube" (coil designs) as I described above. It appears after my brief visit today IBC's direction for their newer boilers starting with their new 80-399 is moving towards fire tube heat exchanger designs very similar to the Triangle Tube. This would explain the low head loss I mentioned above. This might also explainy why they have switched to 439 Ti SS for their 80-399 heat exchanger.  If you look at the parts break down in the 80-399 instruction manual on their website, you'll notice it has a short fat burner compared to the heat exchanger, which again points to a fire tube higher mass type of boiler like the Triangle Tube.

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This discussion has been closed.