Steaming main vents

MEK

New homeowner, just getting into my first heating season in this house. I have a Burnham V-33 boiler and a one-pipe system. Had boiler cleaned and serviced last month. Two weeks ago, I turned the heat on after having it off for a week.  After running for an hour or two, I went down into the basement to find steam blowing out of the two main vents and also from the pressure relief valve on the boiler. I turned it off for the night, and everything worked fine when I fired it up the next day. It has been fine ever since. The only difference is I reopened a radiator supply valve that I had accidentally closed the night the steam shot out. Can this be the cause, or is something else?

Also, it seems like my pressure gauge isn't working. It showed no pressure that night I had steam coming out. Since then, it always shows no pressure except for once when the system was off it showed 25psi, went up to 30psi when the boiler fired back up, and dropped back to 0psi once the system was steamed up. From what I can tell, the Pressuretrol is set to ~2psi. Is this normal behavior?

jpf321

not absolutely NOT normal.

when you say clean and serviced .. did you happen to notice if he cleaned the curly looking pipe that has your grey pressuretrol device on it? My guess is NO since in most cases, it's a hassle to clean that pipe unless there is a UNION between the pressuretrol and the curly pipe. By the way, that curly pipe is a PIGTAIL .. and more than likely it is CLOGGED. You need to clean this first before you do anything else, or request them to come back and clean it, with you as a witness on THEIR dime.



Having that pigtail clogged is a dangerous situation which must be addressed. The fact that your relief valve popped is a sign that you were running at a dangerously (well at least to me and the building code people) high pressure. Not to mention that you have probably now ruined ALL of your radiator vents. And for brand name radiator vents, you are probably looking at more money than you wanted to spend.



Secondly, go out and buy a NEW 0-30 gauge since that one may have lived its day, they are normally a few bucks ... and if you want to become a true WALLIE, go and buy a Wilka Low Pressure gauge (which would be installed as a 2nd gauge) .. but more on if you want later.



So your steps are,

1) either figure out if you feel capable to clean the pigtail yourself or call the company back and WATCH them clean it but don't pay them for the visit as it is a safety device and should be part of their annual check-up.

2) Go down and get a new 0-30psi pressure gauge.

3) Have a look at the pictures (http://is.gd/gqumT) of my brand new boiler and see how the pigtail/pressuretrol/gauge set up looks. All piping for pressuretrol and gauge is 1/4 and should be brass NOT black-pipe.



If you're pressuretrol is mounted on the side of the boiler rather than the top, you have a 90degree pigtail rather than a straight pigtail. If you like, you can buy a brand new pigtail (either straight or 90deg) from simplyplumbing.com (http://is.gd/gvIuS). ONLY BUY A BRASS PIGTAIL, NEVER IRON.



Oh and be careful, I got hooked on steam after experiencing a pressuretrol problem myself just 1yr ago. Now I have a very dry humor. (pun and innuendo intended.) 

MEK

New relief valve

Thanks for the help.

I called my oil company, told them what happened, and they sent someone out. The visit is covered under my service contract.

The pigtail was not clogged. This was the same serviceman who serviced my boiler last month. He said that he cleaned it then, and I believe him. He did find some water in there that he cleared out, he said it probably got in when things were oversteaming that night. He also checked out the Pressuretrol.

He replaced the pressure relief valve because once they pop they tend to leak. He asked if any of the radiators were closed off and I admitted that one was. He told me that was probably the cause, that the steam had nowhere else to go but it wasn't really a pressure problem. He said the vents should be fine.

I'm going to keep an eye on things to see if things seem to be working right. It is tough to tell because I am new to this house and to steam. I did find another radiator that was closed, and a couple others that were not fully open. Everything is open now (the supply valves). I noticed more water hammer than before. I checked the tilt of the radiators and some are level or slope the wrong way. I need to shim them up to see if that helps drain condensate.

I looked at your photos. My gauge comes out of the side of the boiler, it is not connected to the Pressuretrol. I'll post a picture when I get a chance. I noticed that you seem to have 2 sets of Pressuretrols, pigtails, and gauges. Why is that? The serviceman said to not trust the gauges and that the Pressuretrol handles everything. Maybe if they are on the Pressuretrol like yours, they work better?

jpf321

I would not

let that service guy back in your house again. I can't elaborate right now, perhaps someone else can.

BobC

High pressure.

Old 0-30 gauges can get flaky, does your gauge usually read 0 when the system is not making steam? You said it once went from 25-30 on the gauge, that tells me the pressuretrol is unreliable or the gauge is shot. I would replace the gauge, make sure you get one (0-30PSI required by insurance)with an internal siphon so the steam doesn't kill it. If you want to add a low pressure gauge it can be added outboard on a siphon - maybe with the pressuretrol. 0-30PSI gauges really don't tell you whats going on when your operating at 2PSI or so.



The photo's you mentioned that show pressuretrols and gauges mounted on pigtail siphons because the pressuretrols (and vaporstats) do not have internal siphons so they have to protected from steam. Low pressure gauges usually don't have internal siphons so they have to be protected as well.

• The fact the pressure relief acted is of some concern because that doesn't happen till you get up to 15PSI and a residential boiler should not go over 2PSI. The siphon is supposed to contain some water, that is what protects the pressuretrol from live steam. A closed radiator valve CANNOT cause pressure to spike, it might cause the pressure to build faster because the volume the steam has to expand to is smaller. The pressuretrol should always shut the system down when hits the cutoff - 2PSI in your case. If you have a working gauge and the pressure goes above this then you either have a clogged pigtail on the pressuretrol or a defective pressuretrol (keeping in mind that a 0-30PSI gauge often does not read accurately at very low pressure)- in either case it's not safe and should be corrected. Also be aware that pressuretrols are not precision instruments so the often don't trip at 2 psi if they are set there but it should be within 20-25% (might actually trip at 2.5PSI) at worst.
• The attached pic shows my setup, notice the original 0-30 PSI gauge on the body of the boiler while the 0-3PSI gauge was added to the vaporstat pigtail siphon. i replaced the presuretrol when the pressuretrol went flaky for the second time in 14 years.
  
  
  
  good luck,
  
  
  
  Bob
  
  
  
  If the pressure did reach 15PSI your vents might have been damaged, keep an eye on them to make sure they are working and not leaking steam when they should be shut.

AlexR

what he couldn't fit in the margin of the page...

There *should* be water in the pigtail; that's normal.  Some people put it in, otherwise it gets in there as steam condenses.  It ends up being useful because it prevents steam from getting to the pressuretrol or gauge (they still work right because the steam pushes on the water and the water pushes on the air trapped on the other side).



Closing the valve on one radiator should not cause an over-pressure problem.  It will cause the pressure to rise faster than it otherwise would (fewer radiators to condense the steam back to water), but the pressuretrol's job is to shut off the boiler when the pressure reaches a certain set point (usually 2psi or lower).  The relief valve opens at 15psi (if I remember correctly), so it should never open unless the pressuretrol is broken or the pigtail is clogged such that the pressuretrol can't get an accurate reading.



Building code requires a 0-30psi gauge (twice the relief valve pressure).  They're usually worthless for measuring pressures in the normal operating range (less than 2psi), so people install a second 0-3psi or 0-5psi gauge.  Some people also have a second pressuretrol as a safety device- if the first one is set to cut off the boiler at 2psi but fails to do so, the second will cut if off when the pressure reaches, say, 4psi.

jpf321

so ..

i was on my way into a meeting for my actual money making alter-ego ..



pigtails fill with water AND YOU WANT THEM TO, they also fill with solids and need to be cleaned occasionally STRIKE 1



you can close every rad in the system, you should not have had steam pop the relief valve STRIKE 2





in 1-pipe steam radiator valve are allowed to be fully open or fully

closed .. and if you think they are fully close, they are probably

leaking anyway, so open it or you will have problems.



he was there a month ago and now he came back and still didn't get to any real answer that satisfies US .. STRIKE 3



he did state "don't trust gauges" mainly because in residential (even in most commercial) the 0-30 shouldn't move. he should have never witnessed a moving gauge so all he knows is that every gauge reads 0 .. this is NORMAL .. the only time he would witness a moving gauge is if he stood there on a cold day for about 35-45mins when the gauge might START TO MOVE.



to properly "checkout" the pressuretrol and see how it works in a real-life operational test, he would have had to stand there with the boiler running  for 35-45mins and your house would likely be very hot when he left. OR he asked you to go and close ALL of your rads and then he could have checked it in about 10mins of firing time perhaps.



a pop value might leak after popping, i don't know it's never happened to me .. but i don't think they should leak .. it certainly doesn't offer any solution to your possible problem. they have a little lever on there, i have lifted my lever on occasion with no ill effects.



i'm really curious where he thinks steam goes if the rad had been open? does he think it leaves the rad and goes into the room!? man does he sound STEAM IGNORANT.



BUY DAN'S "STEAMY DEAL" BOOKS HERE ON THE SITE .. don't let yourself be fleeced again! http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Super-Deals/14/129/A-Steamy-Deal



I'm not going to discuss my system controls until you come up to speed a little bit. I should note that the picture you saw is WRONG .. every individual pressure control device must be on it's OWN pigtail .. but it is OK to put a gauge on the same pigtail with a pressure device.



look instead at the pictures here http://is.gd/gqumT of my new system, please note this is a newborn and I'm still finalizing the wiring .. all wiring should be in armored sheathing.



MEK, I hate to be blunt like this, but that guy is a joke, unfortunately guys like him are all too common, and homeowners are at their mercy ... and that is a crying shame.

jpf321

thanks alex..

and thanks to alex and bob for jumping in an explaining this is my time of work. 

Rod

Find someone else!

Hi-

 I agree with all the comments above.  I don't know where they got this guy that did your servicing but he knows nothing about steam and boiler control systems. If you close the valves on all your radiators,the steam having no where to go, would build pressure very rapidly until it reached the set cutoff point on your pressure controller (Pressuretrol). The cutoff point of the pressure controller should be at 2 PSI or less so when the steam pressure (with none, one or all the radiator valves closed) reached that point, the pressure control would simply turn off the burner. Your problem involves either the pressure controller and/or the piping to it. (the pipe tail)

The 15 PSI safety valve is there as a last ditch mechanism so that when all else fails, it releases the pressure from the boiler preventing it from blowing up.

 Before I learned about steam I went through something similar as I had the oil delivery company doing my boiler maintenance. Bad Mistake! First of all you have to realize their aim is to sell you as much oil as they can. Oil selling /delivery is their business, not steam system maintenance. It may seem like a good deal cost wise from the maintenance side but the fact is they're making it up in the cost they are charging you per gallon of oil.  On top of that, as you are experiencing, they don't employ the "brightest bulbs" for heating techs.



I see jpf has just posted again and in it he recommends getting Dan's books. I highly concur. Get the books, read "We Got Steam Heat!" first. They are easy reading and in a few evenings, you'll be light years ahead in your knowledge of steam heating. Dan's books will save you many, many times their cost. I would estimate at least 100 times in my case. I now do all my steam maintenance and just leave the burner to a burner specialist as he has the proper instrumentation to check the burner.

- Rod

MEK

So it is probably the pressuretrol?

I thought the closed radiator didn't explain the pressure relief. I have already read The Lost Art of Steam Heating, so the next step is to figure out what that means to my system.



I looked again, and the pressure gauge is not sitting at 0, because it is below the peg. It must have gone past 30psi (see pic 1). I'll have to get that replaced.



I don't imagine that anything besides pressure could have popped the relief valve, unless somebody out there can think of something. With that assumption, if the pressure got up to 15psi, the question is why didn't the pressuretrol shut it off way earlier? I just cranked up the thermostat to see if I can get it to shut off on pressure. I don't want to pop the relief valve again, but I don't have a working pressure gauge, so I'll stop it after an hour if it doesn't cut out. Is there anything else I can do to test the pressuretrol without using the boiler?



It makes me wonder why the pressure has been fine ever since. But maybe this explains it: On the day the relief valve popped, I had to raise the indoor temp 15 degF because we had just returned home from vacation. Since then, it has not had to work so hard, so maybe the thermostat has been shutting down the burner before the pressure gets too high. If that's not the reason, that implies that the pressuretrol is mysteriously working again.



I posted a few other pics of my boiler and the near-boiler piping for reference,



Boiler Pics: http://picasaweb.google.com/113178699302590313145/BoilerPics?feat=directlink



Thanks,

Mike

MEK

Did not cut out on pressure

Follow up to my previous post:

I ran the boiler continuously for 50 minutes. Rads were all 75-100% full of steam. The pressuretrol did not shut off the burner.

Rod

Gauge

Hi Mike-

  I looked over your pictures:

The 0-30 PSI is "toast"!  (see labeled picture) The needle isn't below the zero point it's just broken. Note the post in the picture which stops the needle from going below zero. This gauge has an "Internal Syphon" which functions like a pigtail to protect the gauge from damage. While you see it on lots of boilers this isn't a very good place for a gauge as it is below the boiler waterline and more susceptible to water damage. Gauges and Pressure Controllers are best located high and preferably well above the boiler's waterline. 

I also labeled the picture of your boiler and piping for future reference. Note the vertical return pipe going down to the boiler, above the waterline it is known as the "dry return" and below the waterline as the "wet return" even though it is the same pipe!

The steam riser goes straight from the boiler to the steam main. There should be a header pipe and equalizer pipe located between the Boiler and the steam main. I couldn't view the opposite boiler  but your should have a Hartford Loop located there if the piping was done properly. The Burnham V3 series is quite an old boiler. I would guess at least 15+ years and so you might want to prepare yourself for a new boiler sometime in the future. 

- Rod

jpf321

yes and no ..

yes .. it is most likely that your bump of +15degF definitely pushed it to where it should have cycled on pressure before satisfying the t-stat. and yes, in most cases since, your t-stat shut down before your p-trol .. which is most often the case.



no .. 50mins was not long enough if any of your rads were only 75% full .. all rads should be 100% (the more correct answer is that all rad VENTS should be steam hot) before your pressure will start to build .. and even when your rad vents get hot, it may still take a few minutes. 

BobC

REPLACE THE GAUGE

It appears you may have a bad pressuretrol and you definitely have a bad 0-30PSI gauge. How long does it take your boiler to get steam up after it starts up? My boiler gets steam into the header in about 6-1/2 minutes and into the radiators five minutes later, about 6 minutes later the pressuretrol shuts the boiler down on high pressure. If I could run the boiler for a solid hour on a fall day, the boiler would probably end up in the bay. Once pressure gets above a half pound it builds very quickly.



Now all systems are different and take different amounts of time to get steam up. I would be very leery of operating a steam boiler for a solid hour without knowing what the pressure is. Replace that 0-30 PSI Gauge TODAY.



If the gauge shows that the pressuretrol is not shutting the system down on cutout then the pressuretrol has to be replaced also. If you have to replace the pressuretrol you might want to consider adding an auxiliary 0-3PSI gauge so you can see exactly what's going on. It only costs a few dollars to buy the nipples, tee's and elbows. i posted a picture above that shows how it's done, just try to do it all in brass. i would also put in a new siphon loop and then clean out the old and keep it as a spare.



If your not comfortable doing any of this find a pro that knows and understands steam systems. The guy who replaced your pressure relief valve does not know what he is doing. The service contract you have isn't worth the paper it's written on if the guy doesn't know what he is doing.



Bob

MEK

Piping details

Rod,

Is the dry return also part of the steam main?

I have had trouble matching up my system with some of the features described in the Lost Art of Steam Heating. Two mains come off of the riser and loop around my basement in opposite directions. You see the ends of these two mains in the picture you labeled. I do not see anything quite like the Hartford Loop or equalizer in the book. I'll post some more pictures tonight and maybe you can identify this functionality in my piping. Maybe they are not there.

I realize the boiler is old. I am working on getting a steam pro out to give me my options. There is a good rebate available now for new oil-fired steam boilers. But I am also interested to know if my piping setup is lacking.

Thanks for labeling my picture and taking a crack at what might be missing.

MEK

a new gauge

Where do I get a new internal syphon 0-30psi gauge? I don't think there are any plumbing supply stores close enough that I can get one today.

If (sounds more like "when") I replace the pressuretrol, I like the idea of making it a vaporstat and adding a low pressure gauge on a tee. From other threads, it seems like the best place to get these parts are online stores. What about the brass piping and fittings? Is "syphon loop" another term for the pigtail?

Thanks.

jpf321

yes..

siphon loop = pigtail .. make sure you get BRASS .. they also come in straight or 90deg angle variety ..



internal siphon is not the same as siphon loop/pigtail .. internal siphon means that it is part of the internals of the gauge.

Jamie Hall

Well now...

First off, the pressuretrol is either toast or wired hopelessly wrong or shorted.  Replace it, then make sure it is set properly to shut the boiler off at no more than 2 psi.



Second, as said above that gauge is also toast.  Replace it too (you have to have a 0 - 30 per code; the low pressure gauge suggested is optional, but the 0 - 30 isn't).



Third, and I'm sorry to say this, but the odds are that some or all of your vents are now toast too.  Most vents have a maximum working pressure around 10 psi.  You might be lucky and they might still be OK, but -- something to anticipate.



Third, and maybe this should be first -- I know it's cold out, but I wouldn't run that puppy until I got a new pressuretrol on there and working, and a new gauge.

jpf321

it also begs the question ...

why are you running long enough to build so much pressure .. your thermostat should satisfy long before 15psi. if you currently have your thermostat set back at night .. change it to 24hr constant temperature... this *should* allow you to run without building pressure. you mentioned that it "woke you up this morning" which leads me to believe that you have a 4-6degF setback at night .. personally I recommend against any setback on steam (at least based on last years analysis) .. but if you set it to be a constant temp right now, your t-stat should satisfy before you get into pressure loads.



just a thought .

Long Beach Ed

Still not right

Quite simply, if your relief valve opened, the boiler did not turn off on high pressure. 



It sounds like this problem has still not been addressed, and it's a potentially serious one as well as a costly way to operate a steam boiler. 



If the pigtail is clean the pressuretrol isn't working or is miswired. 



Is it more than fifteen years old?  Part with the bucks and replace it.  Some of the new ones are Mexican.  Try to avoid them.  Out of five I got two that didn't work. 

lutorm

Pressuretrol setting?

I don't think I saw anyone comment on the setting on the pressuretrol yet. It seems to be turned up to 5-10 psi or so, right? It seems it would at least be worth turning it down as far as it can go and see if it starts to cycle. (But without a working low-pressure gauge so you can actually see the pressure it's going to be hard to figure out what's going on in any case.)

MEK

Latest

I replaced the 0-30psi pressure gauge. I have not seen it move yet, I think the thermostat is still the only thing controlling the burner, meaning it hasn't been cold enough outside to fill the radiators and build pressure to the point that the pressuretrol cuts out.



I am most likely going to replace the boiler soon, once I get a few estimates. I have been contacting contractors recommended by this site (real steam pros). One contractor was impressed that my system was so quiet given the poor piping around the boiler. So far, two have recommended a Burnham Megasteam (since I have oil) and one likes Utica boilers. The Megasteam looks like a good boiler, nice efficiency for steam and according to older Wall posts Burnham tried to address the corrosion problems their previous models had.



I am still waiting for quotes, including the recommended boiler size. To have something to compare them to, I calculated the EDR of the radiators in my house. I calculated 288sqft. Then I checked the Burnham Megasteam specs, and that is the max steam producing capability of their smallest model. Not much room for error, so I checked my measurements/calculations and they look right. Is it unwise to go with this size? I will make sure the steam pipes and fittings are insulated with 1" fiberglass. The piping looks pretty standard to me, so the 1/3 pickup factor Burnham uses should be adequate. The next size up (396sqft) produces a little more steam than my current boiler (375sqft), so I would like to be able to go with the smaller size if it really is sufficient.

Should I expect the smaller boiler (0.75gal/hour) to run longer since it makes less steam? Would this wipe out the fuel savings compared to the next size up (1.05gal/hour) assuming it would run less?



One last thing, if you notice in my pics (link in previous post above), my current Burnhan V-33 has two ratings on it. How do I know which one applies to my boiler?

Thanks, -Mike