so long fitzy ... hello slantie

jpf321

Work in progress...non-annotated pictures. More later. <span style="color:#FF0000"><strong><a href="http://is.gd/gqumT">http://is.gd/gqumT</a></strong></span>

Rod

Pictures

Hi jpf-

Thanks for sharing your pictures with us. It looks like the new installation is coming right along. I really like your "2 stage" header!!!   It will be interesting to hear your impressions/comparisons with the new boiler especially since you have data from the old boiler's operation.

- Rod

Dave in QCA

Excellent Install!

Congratulations on your new boiler!  Please keep us posted on the performance comparisons.  I wish that the Slantfin boiler was available in a bigger model for my applicaiton.

crash2009

Lookin good!

So thats what you been busy with.  Lookin good!

TomM

congratulation

congratulations on your new baby!!

-

man, at 31" high, those Slantys really up your "A" dimension.  That's the perfect solution for a low basement ceiling application.  Mine's only 6 feet. 

-

one question:  Now whaddya gonna work on?  A new boiler sounds great and all, but the lack of constant tinkering, troubleshooting, and repair would probably bore me.  i guess you could always add a radiant loop or something.

jpf321

updated/more pics and THANKS!!

First I want to publicly THANK:



+ CHRIS - Simply #1

+ John, Mark, Jerry, Teddy - master steam fitters

+ Karen @ www.SimplyPlumbing.com - on the ball and fantastic to work with

+ SteamHead for his experience and work with off-wall emails

+ All the other WALLIES and of course DAN for making this site possible

+ My wife and Kids :-) -- for not sticking their noses in too far and not hugging me when I'm filthy.

+ "Uncle Al" - always there for me with knowledge, a tool or a story

+ John S., Bob, Larry @ SlantFin Tech Services & Perry in Sales & Bob F.

+ The guys at Blackman, AMAF, Solco Supply Houses

+ Mother Nature for great install day weather



Updated, somewhat annotated pics:

http://picasaweb.google.com/jpf321/BoilerInstall?authkey=Gv1sRgCPLo55SeuNyGfQ#



The first firing took 2hrs to go from room temperature to 6oz.



Still quite a bit to do yet. Will keep informed.

Mark N

New Boiler

I'm glad to see you've had a new boiler installed. I do have a few questions. Why didn't you install a probe type lwco? Also looking through your install photos I see you used a Gifford loop instead of a Hartford loop. In your photo you have it labeled 1/2" above the NWL. According to Mr. Gifford's website the bottom of the close nipple used in the Gifford loop should be 1/2" above the waterline. The waterline is defined as the level at which the automatic water feeder would start feeding water. Did you just label the photo wrong? If the bottom of the loop is above the NWL won't it be hard to get the water back into the boiler?

jpf321

LWCO and Gifford Loop

Hey Mark .. thanks for the ?'s







Funny you should ask about the LWCO as that was, I think, the first

question I had when we unpacked the boiler .. the Intrepid TR-30-SU (SKD

+ bUrner)  is less LWCO, although I really thought it may have been

part of the shipment since they provide a P-trol, I thought the lack of a

LWCO was odd, but indeed, that's the configuration.







So, to answer your question, I did this on a very tight budget. The 67 I have installed came off my Fitzy .. I took it apart, cleaned it thoroughly, changed the gaskets (2 gaskets $4ea from Statesupply.com), and happily put it back in service. I also happen to have scavaged a few other 67's from local boiler replacements in the neighborhood (I love when I see a boiler replacement going on somewhere and stopping to ask the guys for the parts and controls they will otherwise discard.) So I have spare parts for the 67. I am considering adding a probe as a secondary (with manual reset) however, it may be quite tight as the tapping is in the area of the skim port/current 67. There is much discussion on the WALL regarding the pros/cons of a 67 vs. a probe.

+ Contrary to popular belief a probe is not maintenance free and should be cleaned yearly.

+ As well, if there is any foaming, surging or priming, the probe may read a false LW and cause short cycling.

+ The 67 has a much more stable waterline I think.

+ I don't mind dropping in to visit my boiler every now and again and blowing down the 67 (as someone asked above, what will I have to tinker with now that I am all new?).

+ Lastly, I get a certain calming satisfaction out of dumping rusty water and seeing it run clear (I'm sure all the hardcore WALLIES would agree on this).







The correct answer is both should be installed and one should be manual reset. I think one of the biggest reasons for boiler replacements is fire with no water, so it's better ($$$$) to be redundant in this area.



Please note as well that I do NOT have an auto-feed, a decision that my installers couldn't wrap their heads around. A couple of reasons for this: 1) I'd like to have an understanding about how often my unit needs water since the need for water is very telling of other possible problems. 2) Everytime fresh water is added, it brings more dissolved Oxygen which is a steam systems & boiler's worst enemy. 3) This is a Catch-22: If I go on vacation, I don't want to risk an autofeed failing open (I have seen the results of this problem first hand and it is not pretty) HOWEVER, if I dropfire on LW, and I'm not around, my pipes/house might freeze. So this is a NET NET no-win situation, but somehow I feel more comfortable with the advantages of #1 and #2 than pessimistic about my house freezing.



Regarding the Gifford .. again there was a bit of discussion about this with my installers, I actually had to print out Mr. Gifford's article and have them read it (keep in mind that the are native Polish, so even reading it was a bit of a struggle for them). Anyhow, NWL as I understand it is Normal Water Line, as defined in the I&O which is in this case 25-1/2" from the floor. If you read the direct quite from Gifford, you will see it says "Gifford Loop—a Hartford Loop with the bottom of the close-nipple at least 1/2 in. above the water level where the automatic feeder starts to add water." And in reality it could go higher. The purpose, put simply, is to decouple the boiler water level from the far end of the return stacking. Now, with regard to water having a hard time getting back, this is a non-issue provided you have adequate Dimension A. I don't have the LAOSH reference in front of me, but rest assured, I have (as noted above) plenty of Dim. A., additionally, my operating pressure if 6oz so I have PLENTY of Dim A. Simply stated, the stacking in the Dim A of my far return if more than adequate to return water to my boiler. I wouldn't have thought twice about going even higher than 1/2". The Hartford Loop is designed to keep the the water in the boiler as a safety precaution on a leaking return, however it has little benefit when it comes to system operation. The Gifford loop however, accomplishes both the safety aspect as well as is beneficial, as Henry points out in his article (http://is.gd/gvo4K), to the overall operation of the system.



I hope that I've answered your questions, I'm happy to have feedback on the above by any who care to comment.

Mark N

New Boiler

I understand about tight budgets, I have one kid in college and another starting next fall. My new boiler came with a probe type lwco and a pressuretrol. I removed the auto-feeder. I think cycleguard makes a probe type lwco that deals with foaming. My problem with float type lwco is the weekly blow downs. Doing this causes a lot of water to be added. About once a month I need to add water. At that time I flush the mud leg and add water and then fire her up. I have a hartford loop on my boiler and haven't had any issues with it maybe on small systems the hartford is fine. The Giffford loop might be more practical on a large system.

Rod

Burner?

I've been meaning to ask why did you decide on the Riello burner?  

- Rod

jpf321

ah yes, the great burner debate...

you know that i try to do my homework and make fairly sound, reasoned, decisions .. i have to tell you that there is no easy way to decide (at least not being a professional and having the field experience dealing with dozens of burners) which to get.



so i mixed a little of Charlie's "Cost is what you spend , value is what you get." philosophy as well as a survey of professionals that came in to quote the job (about 10 different outfits), my oil service company, comments on the internet and opinions of the WALLIES .. it still came down to pretty much a coin flip. Although most of the visiting professionals seemed to be keen on the idea of the Riello over a different brand. Perhaps it's also local preference, I asked them if there were parts readily available (YES), if they were easy to service (relatively), reliable (seemed to be) .. it ended up costing a bit more upfront (not too bad an increase) .. and I went with it.



I don't intend to turn this thread into a burner debate, these were just my personal decision making paths when choosing a burner. If/When I ever switch to gas, I will have to re-educate myself all over again on burner options.



Good question, no real good answer.

jpf321

another thing i just thought of

with regard to decision to run manual feed. I want to control WHEN I add water to ensure that I'm not adding a large amount of cold water to a hot boiler.



I think the VXT does deal with foaming better, but in a thread a while back, I also understood the VXT to shut the burner down every now and again to get a "good" reading. I didn't really enjoy the thought of having a shut down for my LWCO to determine the level. Even if the LWCO has a very short (few second) pause, my burner cycle is another 30secs to close shutter and then pre-purge, ignite, etc. If you have an auto-damper (which I don't) then you have to add another few seconds for it's activation .. all told, a VXT few second pause could run into a 1minute shutdown. Not to mention wear and tear on the parts and more chances of a mechanical process to fail (even though the LWCO is electronic).



So, I figured the option for me was to reuse my trusted, spare parts available, MM#67 .. besides I have the original care and operation sheet for it stuck on a nail in my b-room from whenever it came originally.

Rod

Riello Burner

I was just curious as I know you research things out well.

- Rod

Steamhead

Glad to help

does it heat the house faster than the Fitz? 

jpf321

tbd

I'm performing ongoing skimming, flushing, cleaning. the last two days have also been occupied by kids halloween activities.I'm sure I'll be prolific on the subject ;-)



thanks again.

jpf321

Water Sample Pics

I have uploaded a few pictures ( http://is.gd/gqumT) of my post-install water after running it a few times over the last few days .. I think the water is very cloudy because of a secret cleaning agent (which started out white in color) that was added last night.



But regardless, you can really see how dirty the water is and the crud which has floated to the top.



FYI my steam is of very poor quality right now and the boiler is surging like mad (I have overfilled it slightly since it was short cycling on LWCO, I have also had to turn my v-stat way up since the internal pressures are all over the place) .. basically it's doing what I would expect it to be doing at this time... cleaning and skimming is an important process and should not be disregarded.

crash2009

Witch's Brew for Halloween!

Thats quite the batch you are cooking. Looks like honey.  Fitzy was crystal!  I'm still spittin out chunks of threads, and hunks of Teflon. 

Sil

The Water Pics Are Telling

proof why skimming is so important... Sounds like this will take alot of skimming before you come up clear.

Sil

Kimax

Seems like I am headed towards replacing my 1 1/4" return. I think I would like to put in a length of Kimax in the return - like JP has.



JP, Where can I get a length of the stuff. What kind of fitting do you use? Looking at the SCHOTT website, the KIMAX drainlines start a 1 1/2". If that a non starter or do they make a coupling that will work with a 1 1/4" black pipe?



I see SCHOTTs US headquarters is in the county I live in...

jpf321

I sent you emails

Sil - I sent you 3 emails that detail my correspondence with Schott and their sales distributor on Long Island (Schott does NOT sell direct) and what I ended up buying. Please read them all carefully and have the Schott Kimax catalog in front of you since everything is all by numeric code.



If anyone else is interested in learning more about the Kimax, please contact me privately offline.



I do caution however, that if I had budgeted money to spend on a steam part, a vaporstat would be my first purchase (along with low pressure gauge).. the 5-foot length of Kimax pipe runs roughly equivalent in cost to a new vaporstat.



Thanks

Sil

thx JP

Thanks for the info. The stuff ain't cheap, but as I mentioned in the email, if I am installing it myself, I don't mind spending some of the savings on something like this.



I also plan to order a 0-3psi gauge as well.



Dumb question about putting in a new pigtail (I know... brass). Do you have to put water into the pigtail/trap before installing it?



Your new boiler looks great. I hope the new steamer doesn't make you lose interest in the "art of steam".

jpf321

pigtails ...

fill themselves with water very quickly, and with crud a less quickly, but both are guaranteed to end up in them without any extra help from you :-)



and don't forget a vaporstat.

TomM

knocked down?

did you purchase that boiler knocked down?  thoughts on that?  seen some prices for knock-downs that look pretty cheap online compared to the local supply houses.  almost 50% cheaper.  thoughts?

jpf321

knockdown vs. packaged

first, you have to understand that I am local to simplyplumbing.com so I was able to save on the shipping (but paid NYC tax) ..



it's really not at all easy to determine, unless you are a supply house with a price book, or you trust the guy at the boiler company phone center, what the real differences are between a KD or a Packaged. In fact upon pick-up I was surprised it was less LWCO. So in the case of SlantFin SKD (Steam KnockDown) you get an unjacketed but fully assembled (and properly torqued) section assembly, a p-trol (not manual reset), glass gauge, misc. fittings for both, and a pressure relief valve, 0-30gauge and the jacket.



If you get an "SU" that's a Steam KD with a bUrner (burner is obviously not installed, but factory tweaked and tested for that model boiler). I had to order the tankless coil as a separate line item part and you have to supply your own Aquastat. I upgraded(?) to the Riello burner. MAKE SURE if you get a SlantFin Riello KD, that you get the correct burner wire harness, this was a hiccup since I was shipped with a Beckett harness and that didn't work, they made good within a few minutes with a quick trip over to their factory (Thanks John S!)



I'm not actually sure how a Packaged unit arrives (other WALLIES here might). But I do know that it has a LWCO. I'm not sure if it is pre-trimmed. When I was on the SlantFin factory floor working out my wire harness last week, all the boilers I saw being assembled were coming off the line with their jackets at the very least, I even think that they had their burners bolted on if I recall correctly.



I spent a good long time piecing everything together, and working with Karen regarding pricing and what's included, it was a struggle for both she and I. But the installed results are well worth it, the savings over a packaged, maybe not so much. I did save by reusing a LWCO, but that's probably about it. In the end, it may pay to get a packaged unit, it's probably about breakeven. I'm not sure what they do about the skim port piping if you opt for a packaged with a MM67 (which is an option, but probably not common request) as the I&O manual states to use 5" nipples to trim the LWCO .. that will NOT leave enough room to get a skim elbow in.



I hope this helps. If you have any other questions, contact me directly.

jpf321

a wishlist of sorts ....

... (or what to watchout for if you ordered like I did)



1) That the boiler company, perhaps specifically/soley S/F, was more public about the different configurations, options and included parts for each. The only codes they have for steam are: SKD, SU, PZT (packaged steam with tankless), PZ (packaged steam without tankless, but arranged), and another I forgot which is Packaged Steam with no option for tankless (or is that Burnham). if you want a Riello, there's no code. If you want a 67, there's no code. But these ARE offered as real options. Burnham, on the other hand, is very good about this, they have a letter code for every option, they are public about it and it's logical (mostly).



2) That S/F would, since they sell the units as Riello optioned, include a damn wiring diagram anywhere in their I&O for a Riello setup. The problem with the Riello if that it does not have an on-board T-T connection for a thermostat (or aquastat) .. when I called Tech Services at S/F .. I was told that I needed an R8845 Switching Relay .. fine, I got one .. now what? I was fighting with 3 separate wiring diagrams (Intrepid, Riello, R8845) none of which was very clear or concise about how they all play nice together, at the end, I got it figured out, but not without a struggle and some help from Uncle Al (he's an uber-master electrician that used to be on the UL advisory committee and even he admitted that I had every right to be confused). All the wiring diagrams in the I&O assume a burner with an onboard T-T (or perhaps make the bigger assumption that T-T really means a Relay) They have a few pages devoted to setting up the Riello burner, so you'd think that somewhere in that space, they could include a couple wiring diagrams.



3) That S/F would edit it's I&O for longer nipples required for the MM67 if there is any intention to have the customer perform a SKIM (for which they have an entire section in the I&O devoted) Problem is that you can't Skim a Tankless Steam setup if you install a MM67 as per their I&O. They have a gorgeous half-page diagram about installing the MM67 (they even have a wiring diagram devoted for the 67), but the install diagram calls for 5" nipples instead of ~9"-12" nipples required. (This may be different if you don't have a tankless since you could perhaps trim the MM67 left of the sight glass)



4) That when they are building out the Riello burner, they remove the stupid circuit diagram card in the Primary where the numbers are 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 (right to left) where in fact the terminals are stamped (and wired) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 (left to right) OR force Riello to correct their card, OR make a corrected card and swap out the Riello card.



It's no wonder that people don't read the I&O manuals, in my case it was not at all helpful in 3 crucial areas (LWCO trimming and Riello wiring I&O diagram and Primary wiring diagram card), and makes one lose faith that the other things the I&O has to offer are any use either.



I know, I know, most people don't get a knockdown, nor do most people actually skim (so why have a skim section in the I&O?), nor do most people take this project on that haven't already done this dozens/hundreds of times already. But isn't that the problem, people automatically know what to do, in this case they probably automatically know how to install an SU Riello 67 so they don't read (and probably never have read) the I&O (because it was written when they were still wearing diapers and the Intrepid was called a Liberty) which DOES contain actual important information .. things like don't use copper on a header, no bullheaded T's, don't reduce supply down to 2" just because that's the only threading machine you have, etc.



Sometimes people have hit their own reboot button and forget everything they have in their RAM .. and perhaps that's why I'm always chiming in on these forums, I started wish fresh, virgin Steam knowledge RAM just 11 months ago!! (My first post was last November looking for someone to do an onsite survey/checkup/tuneup...and boy am I glad I didn't find anyone, they would have come, spent an 30mins with me and I would still be STEAM STUPID) I am now STEAM SMART (to an extent .. others may argue this point), and I haven't been taught the wrong way to do any of this stuff, and I'm always trying to understand the right way and WHY it's the right way.



I say this all quite seriously, but at the same time I have much love for S/F .. afterall, I'm invested now and happily so. Boy that felt good.

jpf321

good question ..

that was the first installed piece ... i don't remember exactly what the internal chamber of that valve looks like .. i don't have an answer for you, however, i can say that everything is quiet and i don't have any banging.



can any pros comment on the internals of a 3" gate and whether this is a possibility for pooling?



FYI, I too have a new "data toy" that I am patiently waiting to install boiler side... stay tuned...

jpf321

today's task...

insulation .. header and under jacket ..



i went with 2" thick for the header .. one in-progress picture posted. i got the fitting covers as well moving to that next.



i also stuffed the voids that are under the jacket and under the boiler. the insulation is rated to 1000defF I believe. I made sure to install it while the unit was running quite a while. even up against the stove pipe, no ill effect.



pic(s): http://is.gd/gqumT

jpf321

header insulated...

Updated pics .. http://is.gd/gqumT

header is insulated with 2" ..

jacket cover is back in place ..



interestingly, by having filled the voids under the jacket, my stack temp rose 250degF .. which I have to work decreasing on now.



no i need to attend to the wiring .. almost done

Rod

Boiler Insulation

Hi- I think your packing more insulation around the boiler is a great idea! I've always questioned why the boiler manufacturers are so skimpy on boiler insulation. There are directives on how thick the piping insulation should be, but nothing on insulating boilers. Apparently the "Deadmen" thought insulating the boiler was a good idea as they have left us the "Snowmen"!   Interesting that your stack temperature has gone up. I wonder what that's all about? Please let us know what you find. Great looking job!

- Rod

jpf321

and DHW heaters...

are certainly insulated better than a boiler...i think I remember reading somewhere that there is a boiler (perhaps on the commercial side) that is insulated a full 4-inches...here it is keep in mind this is a Hot Water Boiler .. http://www.dedietrichboilers.com/DeDietrichWeb/Pages/PagesDefault.aspx?ProductPageID=2 (also keep in mind that I have a tankless coil on here for DHW, so I care about standing losses)



I think the flue temp rose because the boiler was not losing heat to the room therefore, any heat that was left over after exchange to the water, had no where else to go but up and out the chimney and no longer out the sides and bottom of the boiler. There are still hot spots on the exterior of the jacket .. I may add some additional hard-board foil backed insulation on the exterior of the jacket. a good experiment i suppose would be to pull all the insulation and see where things go .. but i just finished being itchy.



at this point, i have had to down-nozzle my burner and decrease the pressure a bit to reduce my flue temps. i'm pretty comfortable with my readings and flame at this point. (3.4% O2, 13.2% CO2, 474degF Stack, 400degF NET on a .75gph x 70deg "B" @ 125psi (effective firing rate of 0.85gph))

Rod

Cures for Itchiness

I've done a lot of work with different types of fiberglass over the years and here are a couple of recommendations to cure itchiness.

1. When taking a shower, start with cool water and lots of soap first. Warm water opens the pores of your skin and gives the fiberglass a better grip. After the intial cool water soaping and a cool rinse, you can then take a regular shower.

2. If the "itches" persist - Use some masking tape and wrap it backward around the palm of your hand with the sticky side facing outwards. Pat the itchy areas and this will usually pickup any fiberglass remaining

3. Be sure to wash the clothing that contacted fiberglass separately from any other washing.

    In most states it is grounds for divorce if you get fiberglass in your wife's lingerie



- Rod

jpf321

thanks ...

i knew about #1 and the divorce thing .. i like #2



i guess you really want me to pull my jacket insulation out for testing purposes huh? eh why not .. maybe next week though :-) .. 

crash2009

Insulation

is a great invention.  I will use 2" on the header and risers next time.  Elbows go on easy huh?  Valves,T's, and reducing elbows are a pain. Is your header 4" or 3".  Either way its huge with the insulation on.  Can you "feel" any heat through 2" ?

jpf321

yep .. huge...

i've heard bigger is better ..



the elbows weren't very easy since they are so close to eachother and i have several of them.



i embedded a temperature thermocouple inside one of the header horizontals (2nd level) ... it gets up to 211.5 (but I haven't checked the calibration on the newly arrived probe yet) (http://www.katsci.com/products/el-usb-2-lcd.aspx -- new source for probes, a bit cheaper than last year .. and i got one with the LCD readout.)



i can feel that the insulation is warmer than the room .. but except where I skimped over the flange union, no discernable "heat" .. i'm going to see about borrowing my friend's IR camera and take some pictures (that might also be a good time to pull my jacket insulation too) .. maybe early next week... (i've started quite a list for myself for next week huh?)

crash2009

I heard

it was all over for you.  New boiler and nuthin to tinker with   I can relate to tight elbows, I did my returns, hartford and eq with 1"

jpf321

IR Pics posted

I have posted a great many IR pics .. mostly of the boiler .. a few of the house exterior and some rads .. they are all in Chronological Order .. with "T" being time of begin fire. The boiler had been at rest about 4-5hrs prior to the first pictures.



if there are questions about anything, please let me know .. please provide filename or link if you need help with any Identification.



IR Pics: http://is.gd/gOG6J

crash2009

IR Pics

Awsome dude!

Mike Kusiak_2

Boiler size vs.EDR?

JP, I read in one of your postings that with the new boiler it takes two hours for your system to build pressure. I am curious as to the size and firing rate of the new boiler relative to the connected EDR. I remember that you posted extensive data regarding firing times until pressure cycling occurred with the old system.



When you get a chance, it would be interesting to compare the graphs and data of the new and old systems.

Mark N

Boiler Run Time

On some of the pictures I saw something like T-97. Does that mean the boiler had been running for 97 minutes. Did you run it that long just to get the pictures. My house becomes to hot when the boiler run for 30 minutes and that is in really cold weather.



Mark

jpf321

yeah...a little long

I raise my thermostat-temp 1 degF in 70 min. with an indoor/outdoor delta T of about 30. no other data at this time. I'm firing at an effective rate of 0.85 gph. it's rated for 421 sq ft. I have about 400 installed. I have tankless coil so that may effect steam output.



I did have the aqua stat cranked for the pictures. for the pictures the boiler started @ 13:25 and I shut it down @ 15:01 the file name for the pics has the time of exposure.



my old fitzy was rated for 726 sq ft. and would start cycling on pressure about 40 minutes in and was firing at about 1.75 gph

jpf321

nearly finished pics ...

i have thrown up a few pics after my wiring install last night .. i'm sure there are cleaner ways to do all the wiring .. but this works for me. http://is.gd/gqumT