Balancing system part two

Kevin Blair

I have read both Dave Bunnell's article on balancing systems and the booklet by Gill and Pajek. Both very helpful and informative. I'd like to get some help before I start making changes.



I am attaching a diagram of the boiler and main pipes, along with a list of all 9 radiators that includes their size, vent type and current setting. There are also two pictures from the boiler showing the psi gauge and the cut off setting (less sure about what this is called). The cut off pic is fuzzy no matter what I do, you can see the picture but the settings are hard to read, so here is what they read:



left side top to bottom--.6, .5, .3, & .1

right side--9, 8, 2, 0.5

below left is--kc/2

below that is cm



the actual setting appears to be at the .1, but it is close to the line for the two.



This quote from Dave Bunnell's article appears to fit my situation exactly":



"...the steam, being lazy, is going to take the easiest path...right towards the first few radiators. This leave the rest of the radiators cold, causing the typical problem when an "undersized" boiler is installed.



Questions:



Am I correct is thinking the mains, especially the one that goes to the back of the house, are under vented?



Should I replace the Hoffman 75 at the end of the main that has the cold pipes? Maybe going to Gorton #2?



Should I replace at least some of the varivalves in some of the radiators with Gorton's as it seems that even at their lowest setting, the varivalves may be too aggressive--venting more than the mains?



Thanks!

Kevin

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Follow Steve and Gerry's main vent sizing practice

in the booklet.  I shoot for about 2 minutes to vent the main of air so just calculate the volume of air in the mains and divide it by two and then see how many vents you need to get the job done or thier sizing charts.

Rod

Main Vents

Hi Kevin-

   Great!  You have the Gerry & Steve's book!  Follow Boiler Pro's advice and work on getting the mains properly vented first. If you need to add more vents use an "antler" or a "menorah". I've attached an excellent drawing done by Brad White. Note the pipe union this allows you to make it up and service it on a bench and then attach it with one fitting.  You may not have the physical room to say use a Gorton #2 in which case you can use multiple Gorton #1s /Hoffman 75s. The antler setup also allows you to easily add more venting if necessary.

Radiator Vents -  On the Vari-Valve vents there is no "Off", just the minimum setting so I'd tune them to that.  If you were getting new radiator vents I would go with adjustables, either Ventrite for small capacity or Hoffman 1A  for a larger capacity. (See Gerry's chart) Since you already have them, I'd first try the Vari Valves on minimum setting.

Boiler Gauges-  The 0-30 PSI gauge is practically useless for low pressure steam as we're in the working range of under 2 PSI.  I'd suggest you get a 0-3 PSI gauge which are available from the Gauge Store. http://www.gaugestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=33020

Most people are using the # 33020 as shown in the link. You need to keep the present  0-30 PSI as it is required by code/insurance. Just add the 0-30 PSI gauge on using a tee though make sure there is a pigtail between the gauge and the boiler to protect the gauge from live steam.

Pressuretrol- With the 0-3 PSI gauge you will then be able to tell accurately the settings when the Pressuretrol comes on and shuts off. You may later want to replace the Pressuretrol with a Vaporstat as they are much more reliable at low pressures. (You can then rig the present Pressuretrol as a high limit safety backup.)

Here's a link to Gerry Gill's website that might be of interest to you.

http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=415

Look around he has a lot of interesting info on his site. His dropheaders are masterpieces!

- Rod

Kevin Blair

main vent

I will see if i can calculate the amount of air needed to vent the mains in 2 minutes. My bet is that the 1 Hoffman 75 isn't enough.



Heat timer suggests in their manual that you can use a varivalve in the mains. If I use the antler arrangement, I can add a varivalve or two. I have several extra as i bought 20 some, enough for both apartments and a few to spare. Here is a link to their charts:



http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/manuals/heatimer_varivalve.pdf



Has anyone tried this?



 

Rod

Floats.

While the Vari-valves can be used as main vents, their drawback is that they are only thermostatic and don't have floats like the Hoffman and Gorton do to stop water passing though. (See your link http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/manuals/heatimer_varivalve.pdf

for the  VariValve schematic and then compare it with the attached drawing of a Gorton.) I guess whether you use them depends on the potential damage if water sprayed out. Most people prefer using the Gortons or the Hoffman 75 as permanent main vents.

- Rod

Kevin Blair

vents

Hi Rod, Thanks for all of your help!



I added one of the varivalves to the longer, backroom main pipe via the antler approach. I figured as an experiment it would be worth trying.



The good news is that I have 9 out of 9 radiators on!! First time that has ever happened.



The down side is that a few of them came on very slowly and have heated only a fin or so, while others came on a bit more quickly and have heated further. The DR radiator came on slowly, but is hot across all of the fins; even with the vent rite vent set at #2 position.



it looks like I have some work to do to get the radiators to all come on at roughly the same time and get them to evenly heat, but there is progress.



I will probably get a second Hoffman 75 or a Gorton #2 to replace the varivalve. There is evidence of water damage here and there in the basement near the mains.



I plan to work out the amount of air I need to vent as described by Gill and Pajek (tomorrow's main task). From there I will see if I need add a second vent to the other end of the main, or to add more venting at both ends.



Do you have any thoughts on the DR radiator? This one seems the key to the system as it is first to come on and nearest the thermostat. It is now hot across all of the fins, which seems too much, while several others (bathroom, back office) have only one 1-2 fins.



Thanks again,

Kevin

Rod

Main vents (cont.)

Hi Kevin-

  Good News! It sounds as though you are going in the right direction. I'm still a bit confused with your piping diagram. It would help if you drew in the piping to each the radiators so we could see what order they are attached to the steam pipe. You might also want to calculate the EDR for each radiator and note it on each radiator.  I've attached a sheet to help you with this. As you may have noted in Gerry's book he used EDR to help figure the balancing. Keep this sheet as you will need it for further use.



The comment on your sheet about on the Backroom quote : "10 varivalve 100% open. has never come on, can hear venting but no heat ever". ( Per your last note I know this has changed but I thought I'd mention it anyway). The fact you are hearing venting is significant. Vents can work both directions and it may be that vacuum from condensing steam in another radiator is sucking in air in the system through this large vent (Veri-vent)  This defeats steam getting distributed as you want the vacuum to bring in steam from the mains rather than air back in through the vents. A good way of checking this is to use a strip of light tissue paper and hold it near the vent. If it blows away from the vent, the air is coming out, If it is attracted to the vent, the air is going back in. Use tissue paper rather than your hand as it will save you a steam burn! I mention all this as it shows large capacity radiator vents can be a hindrance in some cases.  Try less venting here and see what happens.

I think you are on the right track in getting you mains well vented first. It maybe too that you will want to install vents on your sub mains (those laterals that have more than one radiator attached to them) but I would do the steam mains first. As to Main vents as you can see on Gerry's chart of the popular vents, Gorton #1s are the smallest and Gorton #2s the largest with a Hoffman 75 in between.  Check the individual costs as sometimes 2 units of one brand is less expensive (and gives you more venting) than one unit of another brand, Pex Supply is a main distributor of Gorton so you might want to check there. The other thing you want to keep in mind is clearance as some vents might not fit where you want to put your main vents. Gorton # 2s are pretty big.

Good progress - keep in mind that radiators at this time of year (autumn) may not heat all the way across as the thermostat is satisfied before the radiator completely fills with steam.

- Rod

Kevin Blair

venting

Thanks again for all of the help.



I will work on the EDR stats later today. The chart is very helpful.



I added a second main vent to the front main line; thus both ends now have 1 Hoffman 75 and one varivalve set fully open. I will probably replace the varivale in a few weeks with a Gorton or something similar that has a float. How tall are the Gorton #2? If they are the same or smaller than the Hoffman 75, then head room, etc for them or even a few of them won't be a problem.



I have set the DR and LR vents as closed as possible. The LR has a varivalve that is in the full closed position and the DR has a ventrite that I put on in exchange for the varivalve. The vent rite is set to the halfway between #1 and #2 positions. Even with these settings, the LR radiators heats first and get hot almost all the way across. The DR takes longer, but eventually heats all the way across (maybe 20 minutes), while the bathroom and backroom barely come on--not enough heat from them to heat the rooms, especially when winter really gets here. I would also like to get BR3 a bit warmer.



As you said, doing this while the temperature is in the mid to high 60s may be part of the problem with getting a true idea of how much heat each radiator will give in winter may be an issue.



At least right now it seems that we will be warmer than last year!



I will try the tissue paper in front of the backroom radiator vent. I need to do when the system is coming on, which i didn't get a chance to do this morning. I haven't heard any "puffing" sounds this morning while I have been working.



What do you think: I am planning to get 2-3 Hoffman 1a vents from Johnstone Supply today (if they are open) or tomorrow. I am going to put these onto the LR and BR1 radiators at their lowest (i.e. #1) setting.



I have not been able to figure out which radiator connects to which main branch line in the basementr the center radiator in the attic. That one I figured out while remodeling the attic rooms a year or so ago. Any ideas on how to figure out which radiator connects to which line?



Lastly, one the branch lines disappear into the floor in the basement, I don't see anything of the pipes until the valves for the radiators, so I don't know how I'd add a main vent other than in the basement.  Is there something I am missing, that I should be looking for in the apartment?



 

BobC

non heating radiators

Maybe if someone raps on the input pipe of the non heating radiator you can figure out which basement pipe feeds it.



I have seen pictures of valves where the normal on-off control valve was replaced with a fitting so you could mount an air vet on the input of the radiator in addition to the one on the end of the radiator.



Before trying anything like that see how far along the basement pipe feeding those radiators gets hot when the system is steaming. You might want to use a level to make sure the basement pipe is pitched right, don't depend on your eyesight alone.



Bob

Kevin Blair

further venting the mains

Thanks Bob!



I will try the tapping and see if I can detect which radiator goes with which branch line.



I just spent 30 minutes with my wife calculating things and it appears that the mains could be venting 3.4 cfm, using the charts. We have a 1/2" pipe opening. The max with the varivalve and hoffman 75 (assuming 2.0 cfm) is 1.6 cfm; so we are short of venting capacity in the mains. I am heading out to buy two Gorton #2s; should be able to get them from a local uspplier. I will add the Gorton #2's to the main vents and then we shall see what happens.

Rod

Main Vents

Hi Kevin-

    I keep getting this feeling that we are trying to do too much at one time and that maybe we should go back to the basics and get the main venting straightened out first and then think about the radiator vents.  Let's first calculate the volume of each main. I've attached a piping sizing chart. I 've found it easiest to figure out pipe size is by measuring the circumference of each pipe and then check the chart to determine what size pipe it is. If you give me the length and size of each main I can calculate the venting capacity you need.   What is the pipe size of the hole in the main where the present vent is installed?



Main Vents- The Gorton # 2 is about the size of a large can of tuna (plus the inlet piping) on its side. The Gorton #1 is about the same size as the Hoffman 75. (Think a small tin of cat food on its side.)

Bob C's "hit the pipe" method is as good as any for tracing out the pipes. He also mentioned a vent setup you could attach to your radiator. I've added a diagram of that though I would get the mains venting properly first before thinking about the auxiliary vent.



I will be interested in what your total EDR figures out to be and then comparing it to the boiler's output. I also meant to ask this in my last post, Are you familiar with TRVs?

- Rod

Kevin Blair

main pipe size

Hi Rod, thanks for all of the time you are putting in to assist me. I really appreciate it.



I tried this morning to figure out the max. venting for the mains. According to Gill and Pajek, the 1/2" pipe connecting the mains to the vents would give a max of 3.4cfm.



The external circumference of the main pipe (as measured using s standard tape measure wrapped around the uninsulated pipe) is just under 8".



That seems to correspond on the chart with a 2" internal diameter pipe and that looks about right to me.



The shorter run is: 13' 3"



The longer run is: 22' 10"



Venting on the shorter run is: 1 Hoffman 75 + 1 varivalve set full open. Assuming 20z. cfm, this provides 1.6 cfm venting capacity.



Venting on the longer run is: 1 Hoffman 75 + 2 varivalves set full open. Assuming 2oz. cfm, this provides 2.45 cfm venting capacity.



I added a second varivale to this end this afternoon, but then had to leave and just got back, so no info on its impact.



I have 8 of the radiators with varivalves set fully closed and the DR has the ventrite set between #1 and #2.



There is a gas stove in the LR, which my daughter had been using when we got home. This is a Vermont castings ventless stove. I can get the full specs, but it can easily heat 1/2 or more of the upper apartment. The temp in the DR, according to the thermostat was 77 degrees when we got home. The addition of the second varivalve hasn't been tested because the temp in the apartment has been too high all day to trigger the boiler.



Once I get the system balanced, I'll have to figure what to do with this gas stove. It is very nice looking and practical, should we lose electric (which happens here in Buffalo every little while; about 4 years ago we went almost two weeks w/o electricity) we can still heat the place.



I came across 3 Gorton #4 on ebay for $8.00 each, so I bought all three. I am thinking these can go into the DR, LR and BR1 in palce of the varivales if needed. If they aren't what is needed, I can pass them onto someone at heatinghelp.com for the cost of postage.

Rod

Vent Capacity

Hi Kevin-

  Well here are the numbers:

Venting Capacity

                                              1 oz. /CFM     2oz /CFM

½ inch pipe                                 2.6                 3.4



Gorton #1                                   0.330             0.540

Gorton #2                                   1.100             1.750

Hoffman 75                                 0.500             0.750



2 inch pipe has a capacity of 0.023 Cu Ft per lineal Ft.



Capacity :

Short Main         0.023 x 13.25 ft = 0.305 Cu Ft.

Long Main         0.023 x 22.83 ft = 0.525 Cu Ft.



When you look at the figures it would seem that the Hoffman 75 would be adequate to accomplishing the venting. (I use worst case scenario  - the 1 oz  pressure figure)

    Since the max venting of the 1/2 inch pipe is 2.6, that would mean going with two Gorton #2s.  The Vari valves are about the same as a Hoffman 75 so let's see what the Hoffman 75 and the two varivalves do. (1.50 total. -Equivalent to a Gorton #2 + Gorton #1)

What you want to have happen is for the air to be quickly evacuated and the main vents close before any steam enters the radiators. I would set the radiator vents on a minimum setting and observe what happens. Then next you could try opening up the vents on the problem radiators a step and observe that.

       I have a suspicion that there are other areas that need to be checked out. Could you post a picture of your boiler and the piping around it.  Also what make and model it is. Maybe that will give us a clue.

      You might want to read the paragraph on "panting" in the first post titled "water hammer yes" on this link .  http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum/profile/836965/ttekushan  Terry is a very experienced steam pro and this is a good description. Does this sound like what you are experiencing? You could be having a wet steam problem. Does the boiler's water line bounce a lot when the boiler is on?

- Rod

Kevin Blair

Boiler pics

Hi, here are the pics of the boilers. I still need to do the radiator EDR figures--tonight for sure.



The Bathroom and Bedroom 2 and 3 radiators were better this morning; backroom still only 1 fin got hot.



I opened the bathroom, BR3 and backroom varivalves 1/2 way and will see what happens later this evening when we can turn on the boiler; too warm outside right now.



I have all of the original boiler manuals and installation instructions. I scanned in the front cover of the boiler installation manual.



There is a parts list, but no invoice. The parts list shows a packing date of 11/12/86. I would imagine installation was sometime shortly thereafter; so this boiler is 24 years old! Not sure how long it is supposed to go with proper maintenance and very dubious about it receiving proper maintenance )



I had it cleaned last year and this included using some long brushes to push out an incredible amount of black/charcoal looking material  that had accumulated around the boiler fins (I think that is what they'd be called). The guy who cleaned it, Tim, said he thought it was getting old and that we'd better start thinking about a replacement.



The water in the glass cylinder does not bounce up and down, nor is it as dirty as the pic may make it seem. We do drain the boiler every week. The glass is dirty, which makes it hard to see the water, but when drained it comes out brownish for a few seconds and then goes clear.

 

Regarding the "panting" ; hard to be certain. The backroom/office radiator is no longer making the sound of air moving and the tissue test was inconclusive as it didn't move at all when I tried, but the single radiator fin was already hot.



My plan is to wait until around 7pm when the sun goes down and to deliberately raise the thermostat temp and fire the boiler. I will then watch and see what happens.



We are clearly making progress as all 9 radiators do come one. The bathroom and BR2 and even BR3 were acceptable, about 1/3 of the radiator was warm this morning. We'll see what the next round of testing brings.

Rod

Boiler Piping

Hi Kevin-

I just looked at your boiler pictures and near boiler piping. It's no where near what would be considered a viable configuration. Look in the boiler manual on Page 9, Figure 14. This is what the piping should basically look like. Your boiler doesn't have anything that could be called a  header and has to be producing wet steam. With the way it is configured now we are "banging our heads against the wall" trying to balance your system.

i have no idea what the fellow that originally installed your boiler had in mind. It's almost like he had a bucket of random plumbing fittings and was told to hook up the boiler using all of what was in the bucket.

I apologize for wasting your time by not asking you sooner about your boiler piping setup which I should have done.  Since it is obvious that the installer didn't have a clue as to what he was doing I think the best next step is go back to "square one" and check everything.

Let's figure out the total connected EDR of the radiators and see how that matches the size of the boiler which will tell us whether the boiler is the correct size or not. (When you replace the boiler you will have to do this anyway.)  After that you do that you can consider you next options.  Straightening the boiler piping out isn't that hard though it may also be time to consider a new boiler.

- Rod

Kevin Blair

more pics and questions

Hi Rod, here are the EDR calculations. I think I got most of it correct, but there are few things I need help with:



LR type 1 #3 38" high: rates as a 5 w/14 sections= 70

DR type 1 #6 16" high; rates as 3.7 w/10 sections= 37

BR1 type 1 #3 38" high: rates as 5 w/3 sections= 15

BR2 type 1 #6 20" high; rates as 5 w/5 sections= 25

BR3 type 1 #3 38"high;rates as 5 w/8sections= 40

Office (connected to BR2) type 1 #3 32" high; rates as 4.5 w/10 sections= 45

Attic center type 1 #3 38" high; rates as 5 w/6sections= 30

Attic BR type 1 #3 22" high; rates as 3 w/10sections= 30



LR has cover/ 46.5" long

BR3 has cover/31" long



i wasn't quite clear on how to add in the covers.



Lastly, the bathroom (see attached pic) is different from any of the sketches on the chart, so I wasn't sure how to calculate it. It measures: 28" long; 12" high; 3" wide



I am also attaching a copy of page 9 of the manual, just to be positive we are looking at the same page and figure.



I went to the basement and spent a good bit of time comparing the piping to figure 14; then realized they inverted it during the installation!



If you look at the boiler from what I would think is the back, then the piping does follow the diagram, but in a sloppy sort of way. I am not 100% sure, but it seemed to me and my wife that we could follow the diagram and match things to the boiler, as long we we approached it from the rear of the boiler.



I am not sure where that leaves us, but I hope flipping it around isn't a serious problem...



I do plan to fire up the boiler in an hour or so and see what happens.



I do appreciate all of the help. As of now I have 9 radiators that come on--best in the 3 years since we moved in, and hope that at some point in the future we'll get it all working smoothly, like the day it was first built.

Rod

Boiler

Hi Kevin-

  What is the model number of your boiler?  The covers won't change things that much.

- Rod

Kevin Blair

evening update

I turned the varivalve at the short run of the mains to its lowest setting. I figured this should force steam to the longer run with more venting and Rod had written that the Hoffman 75 should be enough; seemed worth trying.



We turned up the thermostat at 7pm (starting temp was 73 and we set it for 80).



I didn't time it, but the boiler fired, the header got hot, then I waited and walked between the two ends, checking the vents. The short end and the long end vents got hot about the same time. I would say at least five minutes, but you know how time drags when watching kettles boil.



I didn't hear any hissing or escaping air, but my hearing isn't the best.



I went upstairs after checking the branch lines (all hot) and found all nine radiators are on! A few remain slow--office, BR3, and attic center. I did the tissue test on all 9 radiators, no sign of air being sucked back into radiators.



As I type, it has been 50 minutes since we started things up:



LR Radiator is 5 fins out of 14 hot

DR is hot across all fins at top, but cold/cool at bottom 5 last fins

Br1 is hot across all 3 fins, but cool at bottom of last fin

BR2 is hot across all fins, but cool on bottom on last 4

BR 3 is hot across 3 fins and 4th seems to be warming

bathroom is hot top fin and seems hot about 1/2 of rest

office is hot on first fin, getting hotter on second

attic Br is hot 1/2 across, cool or cold rest

Attic center is hot on 3 fins cold on 3



Temp in DR thermostat is 76 degrees; so with four more before boiler should shut down, we seem pretty good.



I am not sure if we are "there" yet, but this is wonderful compared to the last couple of years.



I will see what happens next and post.

Rod

Questions

Hi Kevin- Something came up so I haven't been able to look over your figures yet.

A couple of questions: 1. What is the model of your boiler? 2. What is the maximum pressure that you normally run your boiler? You may have stated these figures in the past  but I couldn't find them on a quick look through.

- Rod

Kevin Blair

Model number

Hi Rod, the pressure setting hasn't been changed since we moved in, November 1, 2007. From the psi gauge (see pic of gauge, which you noted isn't a very accurate gauge) I think we are between 1 and 2 psi.



The model number is: EG-30-P1



Some of the other numbers on this plate:



BTU/hr 75,000 (on left side)

BTU/hr 63,000 (on right side)



Steam Sq. Ft. 97



Water MBH 54   8



Not sure why two BTU ratings and I don't know what MBH stands for or why there is a gap between the 54 and the 8; doesn't appear to be anything missing.



I think I could get a clear picture of this plate and all of the numbers if that would help.



Heat was on this morning (frost warnings here in Buffalo) and everything was the same as last night. Heat just came on this evening and so far all of the radiators are hot exactly the same as last night.



I am hearing some light tapping from the office radiator; no hissing or other sounds of air or steam moving as I write this post.



If we could get the office and BR3 a bit warmer, we'd be there in terms of good heat throughout.



As for the boiler, I know you can't see it directly, so it has to be hard to make judgments, but how long does a boiler typically last? I assume that as with all manufactured things (cars, tv, tires, whatever), there are high end boilers and low end boilers and I wonder where this one fits and what we may need next.



From your analysis and our comparing the installation figure to what was actually done, it appears the install wasn't high quality and I wonder how that has affected the boiler life and the heating of the apartment?

BobC

EDR

Your earlier post said you had about 300 sq feet of radiation -



LR type 1 #3 38" high: rates as a 5 w/14 sections= 70



DR type 1 #6 16" high; rates as 3.7 w/10 sections= 37



BR1 type 1 #3 38" high: rates as 5 w/3 sections= 15



BR2 type 1 #6 20" high; rates as 5 w/5 sections= 25



BR3 type 1 #3 38"high;rates as 5 w/8sections= 40



Office (connected to BR2) type 1 #3 32" high; rates as 4.5 w/10 sections= 45



Attic center type 1 #3 38" high; rates as 5 w/6sections= 30



Attic BR type 1 #3 22" high; rates as 3 w/10sections= 30





If that nameplate is correct you are feeding 302 sq ft of radiation with a boiler rated at 97 sq ft. how long does it take the boiler to satisfy the boiler?



Maybe things aren't what they seem to be.



Bob

BobC

EDR correction

I meant to say: How long does it take for the boiler to satisfy the thermostat?



sorry,



Bob

Kevin Blair

boiler sq ft

I am going to take a pic of that plate with that info and see if it turns out well enough to post.



The previous owners of this house (2 flat actually) were 2 sisters (both nuns) who lived upstairs and their brother who lived in the lower apartment. They inherited it from their parents.



I mention this because I find a wide range of "workmanship/craftsmanship" as I get to fixing and updating the house. Some of it is first rate, especially as it dates back to the early 1900s when the house was built. Some of it is appalling (parts of the plumbing that I have had to straighten out) and some is just head scratching--trying to understand why certain choices made sense. I keep thinking that I will add notes to the projects I do with explanations; that way the next guy to come along will know how come things are the way they are.



In any case, I think the nuns may have been "had" here and there by some of the workers and I wonder about this boiler which runs the heat in what would have been their apartment.

Rod

Boiler Output

Hi Kevin-

    Let’s see where we stand at this point.

1. Adding up your figures, the total EDR is 292 sq. ft. which doesn’t include an allowance for the bathroom radiator.  Bob C. estimated 300 so lets use that figure as it is close enough for our estimate.

 2. According to the chart in the manual (copy attached) your model boiler, EG-30,  puts out 195 sq/ft of steam. Comparing the figures it would seem we’re coming up about 105 sq ft of steam short.

3. However it might not be quite as bad as it would seem if you add back in the pickup factor of 1.333 (see notes under chart) which means the boiler is capable of putting out 260 sq.ft of steam which looks a little better.  



4. Whether from adding more radiators over the years or miscalculation, your boiler is quite undersized and on top of that the near boiler piping isn’t configured properly which can’t be helping.



With an under sized boiler, using the high capacity vari-vents has caused the radiators to “fight” over the available steam. Boiler Pro’s article gives you a great blue print to follow to try and make the present installation reasonably viable.  (I keep re reading it and my mental “light bulb” brightens more each time.)  I would go with his recommendations on main vents and on the venting of radiators. This is a step in the right direction as when you install a new boiler this will be an improvement already in place.

There maybe a way of “rationing” the available steam by using TRVs. Are there some rooms that get too hot?  Are you familiar the operation of 1 pipe steam TRVs?

- Rod

Kevin Blair

new boiler

Hi Rod and Bob, thanks again for the help! it is nice to be understanding what is happening and why.



It looks like a new boiler is the real solution. From the chart it looks like an EG 45 or above should have been installed.



Ball park, what would be the cost of a properly sized boiler plus quality installation? My wife and I will need to begin planning/budgeting. We also need a new roof sooner than later and have been planning for that either next summer (2011) or the summer after (2012). I am going to search the "find a contractor" section of heatinghelp, but last time I did this, nothing came up for Buffalo! Surprises me as this area has to have a lot of steam systems given when most of the houses were built.



In terms of squeezing as much as I can out of the current boiler:



I am not familiar with TRVs, but eager to learn.



I think we can "steal" steam from the front rooms.



BR1, DR, and LR can all get too hot. We've been coping with the backrooms (BR2, BR3, and the office) being cold while the front is overly hot. The changes we've made with venting, etc. during this discussion have helped a lot, but the pattern continues.



I am hoping the Gorton 4s can help reduce the heat in BR1 and the LR. The DR has the ventrite, but still this radiator gets hotter than is needed to heat the room and, as the thermostat is in the DR, the thermostat usually reaches the shut off temp before the backrooms get warm enough.



If we can direct heat to the back rooms and away from the LR and DR, that would be fine as I can supplement the heat in those rooms via the Vermont castings gas stove (see pic).



The stove is quite nice, but we often have to lower the thermostat and/or open a window to enjoy it, as between the stove and the radiators, the front rooms can quickly get too hot.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

This is an opportunity.....

for you to help the entire steam heating community.  Your situation is exactly the type of situation which prompted my article, except I have seen these systems heating evenly.  It is likely that your boiler has enough BTU's to heat your space.....the issue is getting it to heat evenly. I would complete a heat loss to be sure using some free Slantfin software, but if you have upgraded wall and ceiling insulation and added storm windows, you're probably good. To give you some perspective, our 3000 sq ft turn of the century home that is now well insulated and sealed and has 800 sq ft of glass but does not need a boiler as big as yours to stay warm ( we were at 90,000 input in extreme cold ....-15F with wind.... and it still was cycling off).

Your problem is typical, with a limited amount of steam available it is heading down the easiest path,which is usually the closest radiators, leaving the farther ends of the system cold.  If you install large main vents (sized with the Gill and Steve method), this will make it easier for steam to run to the end of the system.  Then get yourself 9 Ventrite radiator vents and install them, setting the largest radiator to maybe  3 and then reducing the venting proportionally to the size of the radiator.

As an FYI, the Gorton #4 is still has 60% more capacity than the probably what the original vents had.  It is equal to a Ventrite set at setting 3.  In other words, the Gorton #4 is about the largest vent you want on the system.

The near boiler piping can also be contributing to your problem, because if it is making wet steam,  it will be difficult to get heat at the end of the system.  However, getting the venting right, should make a big difference no matter what, even if you later change out the boiler or correct the piping.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

A few other things....

I forgot to mention.  Make sure that all your steam mains are insulated and that your thermostat is set up to operate a steam system.   The boiler should only fire about 1 or 2 times an hour on a typcal winter day...in your case probably the mid teens to 20F.

Kevin Blair

ventrites and insulation

I reread your article and it does describe this apartment and our heating

problems. I do believe that the LR, DR, and BR1 radiators are over

heating and "stealing steam" from the rest of the system.







As I understand your analysis: slowing these three down will help (after

increasing the venting on the mains; adding the ventrite to the DR and

closing all of the varivalves has helped), but I really want to slow all

of the radiators down even more: venting slowly, but completely and I cannot

accomplish this with the varivalves.





Regarding insulation:



I have added a lot of insulation to this house since we moved in on November 1, 2007. A lot was done when I remodeled the attic, added "triple track" storms to all of the windows, unless they were replaced with new double hung windows, gutted and remodeled the backroom, which is now my office, etc.



In terms of windows, I will replace 4 DR windows on the lower apartment next week. That will finish redoing all of the windows on the entire house. The replacement windows are on order and while that apartment has a separate heating system, I figure the more heat that apartment retains, the better up here we should be. Interestingly, I got the lower system to balance easily last spring using the varivalves. The lower apartment boiler is clearly larger and newer.



If buying 8 ventrites (I already have 1 installed on the DR radiator) can solve the problem, I will head to the nearest store this afternoon!! I have got to finish some of the work that actually brings in the paychecks that pay these heating bills first )



Would it make sense to bring in someone to redo the piping/installation of this boiler?

Kevin Blair

thermostat

The thermostat is a programmable one and I am not sure it is a good one to be using. There was something about changing the thermostat settings to reduce the total number of cycles, but I can't seem to find where i read that...



I can replace it if needed.

Jean-David Beyer

I have a fancy programmable thermostat.

Since most of my house is heated with in-slab-at-grad radiant heat, I have no use for any of the setback features. I keep it because it works, and because it keeps track of the minutes and hours it calls for heat, and this is interesting. And I can use the setback if I go on vacation for a week or more, which I seldom do. Because I can set back for a number of days .



I can set the number of cycles per hour it is to do. Default is 6, which is probably correct for forced hot air. Mine is set at 1, which they say is appropriate for steam or radiant heat.



My guess is you need not replace it, but find the instruction manual to set it up correctly.

Rod

Thoughts on using TRVs ?

Boiler Pro-

     If after getting the system balanced out, what are your thoughts on using several TRVs in the hotter rooms (not the thermostat room) or in spaces that are only used occasionally or for part of the day?  I'm thinking that this might free up some steam capacity for the other areas. Does this make any sense?

- Rod

Kevin Blair

Vent rite model 1s on their way

I just found an ebay supplier who sold me 12 vent rite model 1s for $12.75 each. Local suppliers wanted $25-30.00 and had only a few in stock or none at all when they checked.



I like to support my local stores, but I would have been driving around to locate 8-9 of them and paying around $300.00 for them in total.



It will take a few days before they arrive and then we can see if they work.

Kevin Blair

thermostat cycles

Thanks!



 I am pretty sure we have the manual for it or it is probably on line. I'll go digging for it later today.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

That wil help alot......

The Heat timer varivalves are at the opposite extreme to the Ventrite #1....they are the largest and fastest vents available for radiators.  As previously said, probably no need to replace the thermostat, just make the appropriate adjustments.  Get your Main vents up to snuff and you'll probably be set. 



As to the boiler, you'll have to wait and see how the system performs.  Those boilers make good steam even without a header and if the supply out of the boiler is 21/2  or bigger it could work reasonably well.  The boiler water will need to be kept clean for it to work the best.  A proper header is much better and should be done, but you'll have to see if it is worth the cost.

Kevin Blair

PSI Setting

I assume it is best to install the vent rite model 1s first and see what happens. They are in the mail and should be here Monday or Tuesday.



As noted by Rod, the psi gauge isn't the most accurate, but the needle is below the lowest mark, which counting down from 5, puts the psi below 2.



I have never adjusted the psi, but if it should be at 2 1/2 or even 3, how would I go about doing this or should I call someone in?

Kevin Blair

what thermostat should I get?

We found the manual for our thermostat. It is a honeywell model. We can find nothing about cycles per hour; so we don't think it is a good one for use with steam heat.



Since i have to replace it, what should I get?

jpf321

what honeywell model?

there are 2 manuals for some of honeywell t-stats .. one for the operation and one for the installation. the operation manual does not cover the steam cycle setting, the installation one does. before you give up on the t-stat .. provide model number here and i/we will tell you more. 

Kevin Blair

thermostat

I am posting a pic of the thermostat as I cannot find a model number, hopefully it will ID the model.



The only number on the manual is in the lower right hand corner, under a bar code. It reads: 69-0862-2



I search the honeywell web site, but didn't find anything.



Thanks for helping!



Kevin

jpf321

t-stat manual

Model # T8112D ..



This seems to make some mention of possible settings ..

http://customer.honeywell.com/techlit/pdf/69-0000s/69-0917.pdf



Here is the relevant note from page 2.

NOTE: This thermostat does not have a setting for

steam/gravity air. Cycles would not be long

enough for accurate temperature control.



And the long version:

Adjust System On-time, as Required

The system on-time is factory-set for a warm air, gas or

oil heating system. If you are installing it on another type

of system, the system on-time must be adjusted

accordingly by setting screws A and B on the back of the

thermostat. Use the heating system table shown in Fig. 3

as a guide. The system on-time should be optimized

according to the type of system to minimize room

temperature swings. Setting the screw out one turn

means turning the screw approximately 360° or one

complete turn. Setting the screw in means tightening the

screw completely down.

In the event that you want longer furnace on-time,

readjust the screws A and B as follows:

• Warm Air Furnace—set at the Hot Water setting (A—

out one turn, B—in).

• Electric Furnace—Leave at the Warm Air Furnace

setting (A—in, B—in).

NOTE: This thermostat does not have a setting for

steam/gravity air. Cycles would not be long

enough for accurate temperature control.

Kevin Blair

new thermostat

Thanks for research! It looks to me like a new thermostat makes the most sense. We never liked this one as it is a bit clumsy to program.



What would be a better choice, given that we will buy new?

BobC

low pressure gauge

I bought a 0-3PSI gauge from this online source, copy and paste the line below into your browser-



http://www.gaugestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=33020



You really have to keep the 0-30 gauge to keep your insurance company happy so you will have to see if there is another tapping you can use or add another T so you can mount the new 0-3PSI off the existing siphon loop.



If your going to take things apart you might want to replace the siphon loop (they tend to plug up over the years), just make sure you use a red brass loop not a black iron one (iron plugs up faster). I know McMaster-Carr has them if you can't get one locally.



Bob