Slantfin, Smith G-8, power burner question

Patrick McGrath

Hello all:



I know this is covered ground, but I am having difficulty searching the forums, so I apologize for the retread.



Rod informed me in my last post, "On a gas steam boiler-The general thought seems to be that you can get more thermal efficiency (perhaps 86% + - not officially measured)



using a wet base boiler like Slantfin or Smith G-8 (in a wet base boiler, the water surrounds the fire box) in combination with a power gas burner."



I have a single pipe steam system and need a new natural gas boiler.



I have seen in the past that the preferred setup is a Slantfin, Smith G-8, and I believe Burnham boiler.  This is my understanding - an oil boiler is purchased and the burner is swapped out for a power gas burner. 



After speaking with my steam guy, he informed me that this will allow for more control over the amount of BTUs that will be produced by the boiler, so I can more accurately match my load to the boiler.  It could also result in better balancing of the system and therefore more comfort.



Ok, and now the monetary issue.  I understand that an oil boiler costs more than a natural gas boiler, and then there is the additional cost of the power burner (we are not supposed to talk money, but without research he guesstimated $1000 added to the bill).



If there is greater comfort and better efficiency that will at least offset the additional cost in this plan over the life of the boiler, I am willing to jump on it.  Otherwise, I believe we will just try to match up the sizing as close as we can in BTUs (still will be a smaller unit that I currently run) and put in regular natural gas boiler.



I guess my question is, what would you do if you were me?



Thanks again for the advice on a significant investment.

Rod

Slantfin , Smith G-8

Hi Patrick-

   With the caveat that I know nothing other than what I have read on this board, here is my understanding of the wet base boiler, gas power burner situation.

To use a different than "standard" burner (and to keep your insurance company happy) you must use a burner that has been tested by and has the manufacturer's approval for use on that particular boiler.  Both Slantfin and Smith have "wet based" boilers with power gas burners that meet this criteria.



As these are "special" applications, they may not show up in the distributor's literature (the local distributor may know nothing about them) and in any case the boiler would most probably have to be special ordered from the factory.  They probably can be ordered: 1. Without any burner.(You would have to get the proper factory approved burner yourself or 2. With the appropriate factory approved gas power burner installed;

 and then shipped to you.



Steamhead is the expert on these setups, so you need to talk to him about the proper part numbers etc.  I would then can contact Smith /Slant Fin for more information. As this is not the typical boiler order I doubt if you would get much info. without part numbers etc, from the order desk personnel as even they may not be familiar with this setup.



As a side note - Everyone is waiting for Burnham to get off their butts and get their Megasteam certified for gas as it is "Oil Only" now.



There was a lot of discussion on the board around last mid December (2009) on this subject.  In the search use the words: Smith , Slant Fin, gas, power burner, Carlin (try different combinations)    Use "All Time" and "The Main Wall"  (You can try "Strictly Steam " as it may have some posts- my notes say the info came off the Main Wall) and for the author of course use - "Steamhead"

That's about all I have. I believe Charlie Garrity ,"Charlie from W Mass" has also done quite a few of these so you might want do a search/ to contact him too for info.

- Rod



 

Steamhead

Rod, you pretty much nailed it

the thermal efficiency of a G8 or gas-fired Intrepid is 6-7% better than the typical atmospheric boiler. That's why we favor these units. Fewer BTUs in for the same BTUs out is a no-brainer.



Currently, these boilers are ordered less burner and the burner is purchased separately. The Smith is only approved for the Carlin EZ-Gas, while the Slant/Fin can be used with the HeatWise SU and Midco EC burners as well as the EZ-Gas. There's very little marketing for these units, which is a shame. And in a lot of cases distributors aren't aware of them. I don't have a direct contact at Smith, but at Slant/Fin you can talk to Bob Flanagan, who is one of the best in the business. Tell him I sent you.



Generally, for us the choice between the Smith and the Slant/Fin boils down to which is closest in capacity to the job. Our latest crop are Smith units for this reason only. They're both well-made boilers and you can't go wrong with either. Sure they cost a bit more, but with ever-rising gas prices you want to be as efficient as you can.



And Burnham knows of my desire for a gas-fired MegaSteam, so I won't repeat it here.

Patrick McGrath

Thanks Rod and Steamhead

I contacted both Smith and Slantfin.  Smith's techs believe I should be able to get the boiler with the gas power burner pre-installed.  Slantfin hasn't called back as of yet.  Smith gave me the local contact for pricing, but I know that's a job for my steam contractor.  There's contractor pricing and Joe Homeowner pricing (guess which is higher), so I figured I should back off and let him find out.  It is a good place to get parts, though, and they have been there for me in a pinch.  I am recognized enough to at least get 10% off, but pexsupply still is your friend.



The Smith is much closer in capacity to my system, as well (by a long shot).  It's really close in BTUs, though, so I am going to remeasure the EDR before we commit.



Thanks again guys.

jpf321

for slant/fin...

Speak with Larry in SlantFin's Tech Support dept. He is very very knowledgable an happy to educate as long as you have some sense of what you are talking about. You can get an Intrepid SKD (Steam Knock Down) that is less burner. I'm not sure if you can get one of the PZ (Z is for steam) models less burner. I purchased my TR-30-SU (steam knockdown with burner) model + accessory tankless through Karen @ Simplyplumbing.com if you call their 800 number she will answer, tell her I sent you (JP).. her price could not be beat .. but keep in mind that I am local to them so I am picking it up so there was no shipping. They have both Packaged and SKD models on their website. (http://www.simplyplumbing.com/equipment-slant---fin-boilers.html) NOTE: they do NOT have Packaged Steam (PZ) on their website, only hot water. I have recent quotes from Karen if you contact me directly, or her.



You might want to also read this thread thoroughly as it pertains to S/F

and Gas burners. (Read past the chimney liner part as well).  http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/130105/Who-has-the-best-residential-gas-steam-boiler





FYI, my boiler will be ready for pick-up next week. For all those keeping score, I finally ordered the S/F TR-30-SU-Riello + accessory tankless coil (it was cheaper that way than getting the packaged unit. And the castings are already assembled so no problem with getting correct torque/seal)

MJR6518

advantages of tankless Coil

Hey JP (or others),

    So I have been looking into the G-8/ intrepid option with a gas power burner quite a bit on here (This site is great), but your mention of the tankless coil option. Could you provide me with a few pros and cons of this set up when compared to a traditional water heater? I had a new hot water heater installed earlier this year but I would have no problem investing the extra money if the tankless coil is a feasible option.



Let me know THanks JP!

jpf321

Not exactly sure ...

Not exactly sure what you are asking? Yes, my SlantFin TR-30 has a tankless coil that is used for DHW. It seems to suit my family of 4 fine. I keep the boiler water level high (over the coil) in the summer, and at NWL for steaming during the winter. I hope this helps.

Wfirst189

JB ,

I need some help. I am ready to order everything but I am a bit confused about low water cut off controls and the tankless coil. I would like my new unit to have an auto water filler and electronic low water cut off . Do I need 2 separate low water cut offs, one for the boiler and one for the tankless coil?


Would an aquastat/lwco combo work for the tankless coil ( hydrostatic 3250)?

How would the aquastat and thermostat work together ???

Any advice would be helpful . I am currently without heat in upstate NY so the sooner I can order it all the better . Thanks !!!

Jamie Hall

You shouldn't need a separate LWCO for the tankless coil -- so long as there is enough water in the boiler, the coil is covered. That said, I would always have two LWCOs on a boiler -- one automatic, and connected to an autofeeder with a long delay and a water meter on it, and one, lower down, with a manual reset. But I'm a belt and braces sort of chap.

The aquastat together with the tankless tells the boiler to fire if you need domestic hot water.

Wfirst189

Thank you very much! after rooting around a bit more I got to that conclusion myself as well but glad to hear someone far smarter than me .

Now if I can find a decent aquastat that works with a steam tankless and then figure out how to wire all the components up I should be good to go.