New Steam owner looking for wisdom

BOSN

Good day all....my head is spinning and full of questions after reading and reading post after post.  I am a new user to steam and the fear of the unknown this winter has gotten the best of me.  I believe I have a one-pipe system, there is only one pipe in to each of the radiators.  So, I'm hoping to ask some questions from the experts and see where I sit.  I just purchased the 3 book "super deal" on steam in hopes of expanding my knowledge on my steam system.  Ok, here goes.

Does my system have to have "main" vents?  As far as I can tell I don't have them.  I do have smaller vents on the radiators.  Will there ever be a time where a smaller system would NOT have main vents?  Or should they all (regardless of size, shape, quantity) have main vents?

Should the valves be all the way open?  I found one of them 3/4 closed in the sun room.  Would there be a reason it was 3/4 closed?  The room is full of old, original windows (home is 100 years old) so it's drafty in the winter, hotter than halibut in the summer.  The majority of my valves have black circular knobs that free spin.  I am assuming I must somehow lock them in to open and close.  I'm not too concerned with that, I should be able to figure it out.  But....note one of the pictures with what appears to be black soot?  I was turning the valve (it was not difficult to turn) and the entire stem comes off, all the way out of it's threads.  I can see straight down the pipe as well into the radiator.  The stem appears to be a plunger type valve and is covered in a black soot?  Any thoughts?  This is the radiator that is close to the thermostat.

I have one vent on the larger radiator whistling" at me.  I am thinking I need to replace it.  Are there better vents than others?  I have a total of 7 radiators.  For the most part they are fairly small (see pics).  Some have vents with dials on them.  Some are set on 2, but the master bedroom, (upstairs) is set on 6?  What does the dial indicate?  PSI vapor release?  What should it be set on?  The one whistling does not have a dial, it is also loose (in it's thread) when I attempt to keep it pointing straight up.  I can tighten it, but then it points to a 2 o'clock position.  Will that be a problem?

How do I know my boiler is efficient enough for the home?  Maybe the books will tell me.

Should the pipes be wrapped in insulation.  Some of mine are, others are wrapped with little care and a lot of duct tape.

I just went through and leveled all 7 of the radiators.  Every single one of them were almost perfectly level.  There is signs of settling on the floor so I shimmed all of them now they show a slight lift-edge of the bubble.  I'm hoping this will help with the water return.  Which I'm assuming is going back down and through the same pipe...yes?

I am also curious to the thermostat.  I did have an energy audit this summer right after we purchased the home.  A complete sealing of the house was done, followed by blown in insulation.  Now, what has me concerned is I just finished reading some threads on "to insulated or not".   Well, too late for me, I have already insulated.  Am I doomed?  During the audit I was given a digital thermostat.  I have installed it, tested it and everything ran fine.  What I have seen though in my short time here running the boiler, it almost seems easier to crank the temp up, let it get warm then turn it back down or off.  Is it realistic for me to think the digital thermostat will maintain a constant temp with steam heat?  Again, I do not know much about steam heat but it seems the big water tank has to heat up, push steam, get hot.  If it were to maintain a constant temp say 62 in the winter, will the burner be constantly on and flaming?  That could be expensive.

At any rate, thank you all for any insight, input and/or guidance you can provide.  I look forward to reading my steam books I purchased from this site. 

On a side note.  Any ideas on a steam master in the North Shore area of Boston.  I want to get someone out to service the boiler and once over the system.  I'm not sure if and when it has ever been done.

Best regards

Chris Sparkman

BOSN

Steam Pro

reading through some other post I found a couple of Steam Pro's close to my home.  Hopefully I can set up a visit for a routine maint check and service.  What does the "normal" annual servicing usually run?  100, 200, 300 dollars?  Thanks

Sparky

Jamie Hall

Aren't you going to have fun!

Steam can provide wonderful even quiet efficient heat, as you will find out.  It may take some tweaking to get there, though...



Vents.  Main vents at the ends of the main on a one pipe system are a good idea; they help the steam get to all the radiators more or less at once.  They aren't, however, absolutely mandatory.  Just useful.  I sounds as though the radiator vents you have are adjustable; that is the way, with one pipe steam, you adjust the amount of heat each radiator provides.  The dial usually indicates the relative opening, and it is a matter of trial and error -- if you need more heat, open the vent further.  If a particular room needs less heat, crank it down a bit.  A whistling vent may need to be replaced by a larger one.  There are a number of makers of good vents; others may furnish some names.  The vent pointing to two o'clock will be a problem.  It will also be a problem if it is loose.  I'd replace that one...



Radiator valves.  On a one pipe system, these must be either fully open or fully closed (like, really fully closed -- and very few valves close really steam tight, if they are older!).  Anything in between and at best the radiator will gurgle; more likely it will bang and clang and drive you nuts.  It sounds like you may be in line for some new valves.  If you need to turn a radiator off completely, close the vent, not the valve.  You will definetly need a new valve for the one that came apart!



Insulation.  Yes.  All steam pipes should be insulated.  There are several manufacturers of nice fiberglass insulation, sized to the pipe, which just snaps and tapes shut around the pipe.  It's worth it.



Levelling the radiators to pitch slightly towards the inlet is not a bad idea; your surmise that the condensate is going back down the pipe the steam came in on is correct.  Which also means that all the pipes must pitch back towards the boiler, or to a place where they can "drip" to a wet return line (low on the basement floor).  The books will tell you the correct pitch for each pipe.  This is important, as incorrect pitch is another reason for clanging and banging.



You can leave the thermostat at one specific setting -- provided it is set up for steam.  Most digital thermostats have an option called "cycles per hour"; for steam, that should be 1.  Many digital thermostats come from the factory set for hot air -- typically 6 cycles per hour -- which won't work well on steam.  Check that.  You can also, on many digital thermostats, program them for night setbacks; there is no real consensus on that, but a sort of general feeling that more than say three to five degrees setback wastes more fuel than it saves.



Your boiler shouldn't run all the time if the thermostat is set up properly, the boiler is big enough (but not too big!) and the pressure is set right.



Pressure setting is important.  Too high -- which is dismayingly common -- and you will waste a lot of energy as well as causing other problems which are more or less serious.  From the pictures, it looks as though you have a pressurestat.  It should be set so that the boiler turns off if the pressure gets to one and a half to two psi, and back on again at about half a psi.  Tell us more about it, and we can help you set it.



For a steam man in your area, try "Find a Professional" on this site; search by state, not zip code for best results.



And enjoy learning about steam!

Jamie Hall

PS

I see while I was typing that you have found a steam man -- good!  But we don't talk price here if we can help it...

Rod

New Steam Owner

Hi Chris-  I think the best thing to do would to just wait for the books as they will be able to answer your questions more clearly and completely than we could in a short post and also fill you in on a lot of other info. Read "We Got Steam Heat" first as it is a good place to start and has a lot of terminology that you will help you understand when you are reading "The Lost Art....."

These books are written for someone new to steam and are easy, humorous reading and in a few evenings of reading you'll know a LOT more about steam.



To answer a few of your questions- Yes, most steam systems need main vents. These are usually found at the end of each steam main or on the dry return pipes.

In looking at your pictures you have some problems with the configuration of your near boiler piping. This will need to be changed and should make you boiler more efficient.

(This is all covered in the books.)

As for a good "steam pro" look in the Find a Contractor section at the top of this page. Scroll past the zip code section to where you see "States" listed and check for one local to you. Some just do hot water rather than steam so click on their names and they should tell you whether they work on steam.

From the look of things you have a fairly normal steam system which has been neglected a bit since it was put in and has been worked on by people who didn't know what they were doing. The good news is that it should be fairly easy to straighten out so that it will be very comfortable and more economical.

While you're waiting for "the books", you might want to take a look at what is call "Off the Wall" (Go to Resources at the top of this page) There is a lot of good information available there there. Just search around.

Welcome to the World of Steam Heating!

- Rod



Edit: Found a couple of links from "Off the Wall" that might be of interest to you.

        http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/11/Hot-Tech-Tips/128/A-Steam-Heating-Primer

       http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/11/Hot-Tech-Tips/263/The-Speed-of-Steam

As Jamie mentioned, one of the board rules is not to discuss pricing.

BOSN

Steam

Thank you Sir for the amazing fast response.  I was told by probably 3 or 4 guys that were going through the house during the energy audit as well by the home inspector that the pressure was set correctly.  The pressure system in the picture is a honey well.  When the system is on and running I have never seen the gauge move.  I'm assuming I shouldn't, correct?

Are the valves easily replaced?  Can the handy handy man change on his own?

I believe I did put the setting of the thermostat on 1.  The energy man provided me with what he said was a steam thermostat.  So I think I am good there. 

Ok, gotta scoot off to baseball tryouts.  Need to put the little league team together for next year.  Look forward to seeing, hearing and learning more!  Thank you again.

Sparky

nicholas bonham-carter

old valve

your steam man will be able to put that valve back together without much trouble, and hopefully he can show you how to do the same.

with all due respect to JH, i would say that every one pipe system will need main vents, with  plenty of capacity! this is because the volume of air in all the steam supply pipes, as well as the steam chest of the boiler itself must be removed before the steam can rise up into the radiators. the radiator vents are of too small a capacity, and cannot do this job, without calling upon the gas company for extra help [at a price!!!!].

as i was in a rush in reading this, i did not see what the talk about pressure was, but keep it in the ounces range, and you will save money.--nbc

BOSN

valves

"In looking at your pictures you have some problems with the configuration of your near boiler piping. This will need to be changed and should make you boiler more efficient."....Rob, the problems you see, is it about the system being efficient only or was the piping installed flat out wrong?  I guess I'm confused on the piping thing.  Is it as simple as moving pipes around, they look pretty permanent to me.  Not much modification room if you know what I mean.  Not unless I plan taking down, re-routing, re-piping, etc, etc.

Roger, roger and WILCO on the pricing discussion.  I did see that at the beginning, my apologize.

Does anyone know what the blacking of the valve is on the picture I posted earlier.  It was almost like something left from a fire(the ash or soot (sp)).  I am curious to how and what caused it. 

Looking for valves today.  The valve I spoke of in the sun-room that was 3/4 shut...well now it is all the way closed and it will not open back up.  I guess closed is better than open now that I have the radiator off. 

What is the best practice for breaking free the valve from the main line if the two are seized.  Just asking before I go crazy with the pipe wrenches.  You know, some secret solution like "Wd 40 and peanut butter" spread around the thread type of thing.

Thanks

Chris

BobC

Look for the low hanging fruit first

Welcome to the wonderful world of steam. You will learn there are not a lot of knowledgeable steam men around. most heating systems are forced hot air or forced hot water and that is as far as most heating knowledge goes. Ordering those books was a very good first step because reading them will enable you to judge the capability of anyone working on your system.



You are starting down a path that will end in a well working steam system. You have to do one thing at a time to try and get all the low hanging fruit - start with the easy cheap fixes and progress up through the more involved repair work. After you read those books a lot of  the easy fixes will become apparent.



I can tell you that the annual boiler maintenance cost depends on what they do. At the low end of the scale they replace fuel filters, cleanout and adjust the boiler and burner - they don't look at the system. You need someone who understands steam and will look at the whole system and make suggestions to improve it's working efficiency - and that will cost more. Once you become more knowledgeable you can get by with the simple cleanout but you need to spring for a steam pro at the outset.



You may find that a mains air vent was removed from your system in the past and replaced with a plug by someone who didn't know any better. If you feel around the insulation at the end of your steam main you might find out where it used to be.



The air vents on the end of your radiators can be found at hardware stores and the big box stores. Most of what they sell is pretty cheaply made, they work but who knows for how long. The good air valves are sold by plumbing supply stores or online, this supplier offers the Hoffman line at a pretty good price, copy and paste that into your browser



http://www.pexsupply.com/Hoffman-42000-b



The adjustable air valves allow you to adjust the rate at which they vent air from the system. When all is said and done you want the radiators to get steam at about the same time so you have even heat throughout the house. After you read those books this will all become clear but for now just know that steam and air can't be in the same place at the same time. You have to vent the air so the steam can get into the radiator.



The fact your steam pressure gauge doesn't work may mean the steam pressure is set nice and low (like it should be) or that gauge is broken. Many people add another low pressure gauge (0-2PSI or 0-3PSI) to the boiler so they can see exactly where they are operating. With a pressuretrol you dial it down to 1.5PSI cut out and 0.5PSI cut in. If you have a vaporstat you can adjust things a lot lower. In either case you really do need a low pressure gauge to see where you are.



happy hunting!

BobC

Look for the low hanging fruit first

Welcome to the wonderful world of steam. You will learn there are not a lot of knowledgeable steam men around. most heating systems are forced hot air or forced hot water and that is as far as most heating knowledge goes. Ordering those books was a very good first step because reading them will enable you to judge the capability of anyone working on your system.



You are starting down a path that will end in a well working steam system. You have to do one thing at a time to try and get all the low hanging fruit - start with the easy cheap fixes and progress up through the more involved repair work. After you read those books a lot of  the easy fixes will become apparent.



I can tell you that the annual boiler maintenance cost depends on what they do. At the low end of the scale they replace fuel filters, cleanout and adjust the boiler and burner - they don't look at the system. You need someone who understands steam and will look at the whole system and make suggestions to improve it's working efficiency - and that will cost more. Once you become more knowledgeable you can get by with the simple cleanout but you need to spring for a steam pro at the outset.



You may find that a mains air vent was removed from your system in the past and replaced with a plug by someone who didn't know any better. If you feel around the insulation at the end of your steam main you might find out where it used to be.



The air vents on the end of your radiators can be found at hardware stores and the big box stores. Most of what they sell is pretty cheaply made, they work but who knows for how long. The good air valves are sold by plumbing supply stores or online, this supplier offers the Hoffman line at a pretty good price, copy and paste that into your browser



http://www.pexsupply.com/Hoffman-42000-b



The adjustable air valves allow you to adjust the rate at which they vent air from the system. When all is said and done you want the radiators to get steam at about the same time so you have even heat throughout the house. After you read those books this will all become clear but for now just know that steam and air can't be in the same place at the same time. You have to vent the air so the steam can get into the radiator.



The fact your steam pressure gauge doesn't work may mean the steam pressure is set nice and low (like it should be) or that gauge is broken. Many people add another low pressure gauge (0-2PSI or 0-3PSI) to the boiler so they can see exactly where they are operating. With a pressuretrol you dial it down to 1.5PSI cut out and 0.5PSI cut in. If you have a vaporstat you can adjust things a lot lower. In either case you really do need a low pressure gauge to see where you are.



happy hunting!

BobC

Look for the low hanging fruit first

Welcome to the wonderful world of steam. You will learn there are not a lot of knowledgeable steam men around. most heating systems are forced hot air or forced hot water and that is as far as most heating knowledge goes. Ordering those books was a very good first step because reading them will enable you to judge the capability of anyone working on your system.



You are starting down a path that will end in a well working steam system. You have to do one thing at a time to try and get all the low hanging fruit - start with the easy cheap fixes and progress up through the more involved repair work. After you read those books a lot of  the easy fixes will become apparent.



I can tell you that the annual boiler maintenance cost depends on what they do. At the low end of the scale they replace fuel filters, cleanout and adjust the boiler and burner - they don't look at the system. You need someone who understands steam and will look at the whole system and make suggestions to improve it's working efficiency - and that will cost more. Once you become more knowledgeable you can get by with the simple cleanout but you need to spring for a steam pro at the outset.



You may find that a mains air vent was removed from your system in the past and replaced with a plug by someone who didn't know any better. If you feel around the insulation at the end of your steam main you might find out where it used to be.



The air vents on the end of your radiators can be found at hardware stores and the big box stores. Most of what they sell is pretty cheaply made, they work but who knows for how long. The good air valves are sold by plumbing supply stores or online, this supplier offers the Hoffman line at a pretty good price, copy and paste that into your browser



http://www.pexsupply.com/Hoffman-42000-b



The adjustable air valves allow you to adjust the rate at which they vent air from the system. When all is said and done you want the radiators to get steam at about the same time so you have even heat throughout the house. After you read those books this will all become clear but for now just know that steam and air can't be in the same place at the same time. You have to vent the air so the steam can get into the radiator.



The fact your steam pressure gauge doesn't work may mean the steam pressure is set nice and low (like it should be) or that gauge is broken. Many people add another low pressure gauge (0-2PSI or 0-3PSI) to the boiler so they can see exactly where they are operating. With a pressuretrol you dial it down to 1.5PSI cut out and 0.5PSI cut in. If you have a vaporstat you can adjust things a lot lower. In either case you really do need a low pressure gauge to see where you are.



happy hunting!

Rod

Piping Configuration

Hi Chris- I'm a bit hesitant to get into near boiling piping at this point as it will all be explained by Dan in his books much better than I could ever do and also with the books we can refer you to the page numbers in the books which give the information you're seeking. The basic problem is you don't have a header on your system and this leads to "wet steam". Wet Steam is where a lot of water is carried up into the system along with the steam which creates water hammer problems and makes the system inefficient and uses more fuel. Here's a video by Dan which explains near boiler piping.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/107/Steam-Heating/118/Steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping



Do you have the I&O manual (Installation & Operating manual) for your boiler?

If not, give us the make and model # of your boiler and we can see if we can find a copy for you.



The black stuff on the valve is probably corrosion. Corrosion of steel produces a black muck like that and is fairly normal in old heating systems. You're better off letting a pro replace the valve as they have the experience and tools to do this. It would be better to let them do it than you breaking the pipe. Radiator valves- there are valves for hot water and valves for steam. They may look exactly alike. Make sure any radiator valve you replace is approved for steam. This is especially important on 1 pipe radiators as the internal clearances have to accommodate both steam and condensate.

- Rod

BOSN

Whats wrong with this picture?

Ok...I received the books and WHOA!  So much to learn.  I finished the "We got steam heat" the day I received it.  I definitely recommend the books for first time steamers.  So, with the little knowledge I have and some great pictures, diagrams, etc., I am wanting to get some opinions.  I am definitely looking forward to next week when the "Steam Pro" shows up to give my system the once over.  I feel like I have found someone who knows what's happening. 

One of my concerns is the header.  Everything I read states it should be 24in above the water line.  Mine is only 18.  The near boiler piping is all 2 1/2 in piping, leading up to the main which also appears to be 2 1/2 in piping.  The the 7 split offs to the radiators looks like 1 3/4 piping.  One of the radiators piping (approx 10-12 ft, and the farthest piping from the boiler has been re-piped in copper (1 to 1 1/2 in piping).  I turned the system on for the first time today since shutting it down completely back in May. (I hope that was the right thing to do).  When it fired up, it took approx 20 minutes for heat (to the touch) to reach all the radiators valves.  20 minutes did have the radiators with heat, just to the valves.  The first radiator valve I noticed to get hot was the room with the thermostat, then the radiator valves upstairs were next.  The last was the largest (the one with copper) in the living room. 

One valve (the sun room) was closed (so I assumed).  By the time I shut the system back off (45 minutes or so) the first 4-6 inches of radiator (across the top) was warm to the touch.  I'm thinking a valve replacement is needed there.  Something I will have the "steam pro" do. 

The other issue that eludes me is the "main vents".  I do not have any (that I can see) on my system.  I have attached a photo that I am hoping to get some opinions on.  It almost looks like a split off to another radiator (it's alongside an active pipe), but this one is capped and is larger than it's neighbor.  It looks like a 1 3/4 inch pipe while it's neighbor looks like a 1 1/4 inch pipe.  Could that have been a "main vent" at one point.  There does not appear to have been another radiator at anytime in the past that would have been attached to that pipe.  Can I put a "main vent" on it and ease the system?  I have purchased the equipment to do this, but I don't want to take the plug to manpower and break something.  I will let the "steam pro" do that if he confirms it will benefit

I am also curious as to the "new" look of the pipes.  Referencing the book and recall reading about folks in the past painting their radiators.  Do painting the pipes make a difference, or are my pipes in fact "newer".  I'm thinking they have been painted vice new....I am just not 100% sure.

There are also two valves near the bottom of the boiler.  I am thinking one is maybe a "mud" valve and the other a wet return valve.  Is that correct?  The wet return valve I opened while the system was on, (I hope I don't get slammed for this).  What happen was some "dirty" water came out for a few seconds, then clean water (very hot) followed by what I will describe as "rushing air, spitting hot water"???  Should that happen?  The other valve, the one I am considering the mud valve (directly below the site tube) only produced on a couple openings and closing some dirty water.  By the 3rd or 4th opening/closing, it was clean hot water.  Good? Bad?....or "Sparky, quit touching things"!

Overall there were not a lot of crazy sounds with the exception of the air vents bleeding.  They eventually stopped and it was a slow wheezing(sp), no spitting or spattering.  Then quite and hot.

Just looking to make myself feel a little better about the little things I have done to make my system more efficient.  Thanks for you thoughts and opinions.

r/

Sparky

Rod

Main Vents

Hi Chris-

   Glad to hear the books arrived.  I know what you mean. All that new knowledge is a bit overwhelming at first but it gradually all slips into place and makes sense.

   I looked over your new pictures and if I read the pictures correctly, it would seem you have a counterflow steam system which means the mains slope back towards the top of the boiler. I blew up a section of the mains and  I've labeled different parts so you can refer to them. On a counterflow system the steam in the main travels "up hill" to the radiators and the returning condensate (water) flows back "down hill" in the opposite direction. The drips are located so they tap off the returning condensate so it won't interfere with the steam entering the mains from the boiler.



Main Vents-  They should be at the very end of each Main (labeled Main 1 and Main # 2) past the last radiator on the main and ideally not at the very end of the main but back about 15 inches so water rushing up the main doesn't slam into it. The stub pipe with the plugged end isn't in a position for a main vent. As it comes off the main at a 45 degree, I would expect it originally had a radiator hooked up to it or it was originally planned to add one in the future.



  Dry Return/Wet Return- While it can be the same pipe, above the waterline it is named the "Dry Return" and below the waterline, the "Wet Return"  As it is setup your wet return is very short so its water is minimal which is why you got air/steam so quickly. On a system where the return has to come all the way from the far end of the main the wet return can be quite long.

  Boiler Header-   This could be improved upon as it really isn't a proper header. A good dropheader would give you dryer steam.  I see your boiler is a Weil McLain. Could you give us the model number? Do you have the Installation Manual ?

Painting- I think this was done more for aesthetics as there isn't any practical purpose. Good insulation on all steam piping is a big plus. I had it lacking on just my near boiler piping and after doing that piping the difference was noticeable.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/11/Hot-Tech-Tips/300/Why-you-should-insulate-steam-pipes



I think one of your first priorities would be getting large capacity main vents at the end of each main. Who ever did the original counterflow piping seemed to know what they were doing.  Look around the far end of your mains (away from the boiler) as you maybe able to find where they were originally attached. If you can't find any fittings to attach new main vents,it's easy to drill and tap the pipe so the new vents can be installed. That should make a big difference the time it takes to get steam to yourradiators. Right now the radiator vents have to do both their job and that of the main vents

- Rod

 

BOSN

Main Vents

Rod....thank you for the pics with details.  I am going to print them out and put them in the home folder.  As for the model of the boiler, it is a Weil-Mclain, model # EG-40a-PI.  Input BTU - 125000, DOE Heating capacity 101000, Water Mbh 88, Steam sq ft 317, Steam Mb 76. 

I believe I have found the manual.  http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/boilers/gas-boilers/eg/eg_boiler_manual.pdf

Now the picture on page 15 (Counter-flow piping) does not look like my system.  Not sure if my setup is serving the same purpose.  But...the header measurement states it must be at least 14 inches above waterline.  Just re-measured mine again and it is right around 14-15 inches.  So that tells me it was at least installed by manufactures recommendation as it pertains to the header.  But again, the picture does not look like mine..(scratching head).  Maybe it was not installed correctly and in accordance with manufactures recommendations.

The counter flow system you describe sounds exactly what I have.  Both the left and right main definitely slope back to the boiler.  I now definitely get the "wet return, dry return" concept.  I wasn't total sure what I had, I was thinking more along the "dry" return because I have no pipes in the floor or under anything.  So from your explanation I get any return line under the "water line" would be considered wet.  Thanks, (hopefully I got that right).

Main vents....after reading the books and your post I am pretty confident I DO NOT have main vents.  The main that runs to the right has 3 split offs, and if I continue down the main it takes a 90 turn and runs about 2-3ft then 90's up into the floor into the sun room radiator valve.   My question is should a main just end and have a "main vent" on it?  Or scan it end like I described above taking 90 then going up to a radiator valve?  Could I or should I tap into the first 90 and install the "main vent" there? 

As for the main that goes to the left.  It has no splits for about a 10-12 ft run then takes a hard left.  The picture where I ask earlier if I could install a main vent is the hard left.  It then has 2 splits to radiators, (one of them in the picture) and another further down the line going topside to the second floor.  Now right about where the second split is, is the start of the copper piping that again, like the other main continues on up to the largest radiator and ends at the living room radiator.

Now what has me still scratching my head...the goal of the main vents is to get the air out of the system before the steam whistles by.  But my runs seem very short, at least the right running main, before it hits a split and shoots off to a radiator.  If the air is going to travel the least path of resistance, wouldn't it shoot off and up into the 3 splits before it ran all the way to the end that continues into the sun room radiator.  Or, if I had a vent on that 90 like I spoke of above, (a larger 'main vent"), would the air recognize that and slide by the splits and head for the "main"?  I pose the same question going the other way.  Now this one seems a little easier to me.  Put a "main vent" at the hard 90.

I plan to re-insulate the near boiler pipes, they were wrapped (sloppy) but wrapped.  It appeared to have been on for awhile so I will be giving her a new coat.  I wanted to keep it off for the servicing by the steam pro next week. 



Sorry for my ramblings, especially if I now have you all scratching your heads thinking "what is this guy talking about"!  I appreciate the chance to "vent"....sorry could not resist.

r/

Chris

Rod

Vents & Headers

Hi Chris-

Header- Glad to hear you have the I&O manual. As to the drawing on Page 15 of the manual, the would be called the "classic" counterflow design. While one should follow the boiler manufacturer's instructions for piping installation, these instructions are quite often for the "minimum" rather than the "optimum". I think the "minimum" is used so the manufacturers are sure to be competitive with the lowest bid of another boiler manufacturer. If you are an installer and know nothing about steam, sticking to the factory instructions will provide a satisfactory installation.  However if you know what you are doing steam wise, there are improvements that can be made to optimize the boiler piping.

    If you look at Figure 18 on Page 14 of the manual you will see a drawing of how it is suggested that you pipe your boiler for the more common parallel flow system. Most steam pros use this type of configuration and modify it to work with counterflow systems. (See attached photo of a beautiful counterflow header done by a Rhode Island steam pro, Steve Gronski) Note the drips similar to what you have.

    The idea of the header, especially a dropheader (Both attached photos have dropheaders), is to separate the water from the steam so the steam going to the mains is "dryer". "Dry steam" is more efficient as it is able to carry more BTUs of latent heat.

    As to height above the boiler waterline. Dan says to use the "recommended dimension" but take it from the top of the boiler. That way you get a little more safety margin.

One of the advantages of using  a drop header you can take your risers as high as you wise. (See second attached photo by one of the steam pros, "Clammy")

   On your system you really don't have a header and the steam and water go straight up to the mains. However since this distance  is quite high, a lot of the water may drop back down so that  your steam isn't as "wet" as it might be.  I would consult with your "pro" as to whether or not this needs to be changed though I would certainly change it when i installed a new boiler.



Main Vents-  I'd go with the advice of your steam pro as to placement. Without physically seeing it, it is a tough call. Keep in mind the idea of main vents is to vent the large volume of air in the mains and get steam to the radiators. Remember steam pushes air out of the mains so you want to place the vents that enables the steam to totally vacate (push) the air out.

- Rod

BOSN

UPDATE! Steam boiler serviced

Ok, just had the boiler serviced.  There have been some changes to my system that I did not see before the cleaning.

PRESSURE:  See attached pics.  Before the cleaning I never noticed the pressure gauge go up.  After the cleaning.  I ran the system for 25-30 minutes.  Noticed the pressure gauge rising???  It shut off at 4 PSI.  Once it hit 2 PSI, boiler came back on.  Nothing was adjusted with either dials.  I thought I was set up correctly for cut in/cut out with diff.  Can anyone tell by looking at the photo if I am set up correctly?  The inside dial looks to be just slightly above 2.   Is it good that it cut off at 4 PSI and came back on at 2 PSI (the system was not heated up to thermostat setting yet).   Or is 4 to high because it should cut out at 2?  Won't that create a lot of short cycling of the system?  Did the draining and cleaning of everything change the system?

Other things I noticed and have found out.  Before the cleaning, the (near boiler piping) larger, lower pipe would start to get heat about the same time the pipe on top starting getting heat.  (thought it was normal, but it seemed odd to me that the lower was heating the same as the upper when I would assume the upper (pushing steam) would get hot first.  After the cleaning...., the upper...smoking hot and steam moved out to the line very quickly, quicker than before the cleaning (5-10 mins vice 10-20 mins)  Radiators filled with steam also quicker.  I will chalk that up to removing all the radiators vents and cleaning them.  I still think I am having vent issues on the radiators.  Some are clicking on and off, all of them are adjustable, but stiff if you know what I mean.  They have a dial at the bottom (plastic w/ numbers).  One had fallen off and I was able to turn the stem further than with the dial on.  When I blew into the vent I could turn the stem and get full open, and full off.  When off absolutely 0 air was going through.  I am inclined to just replace all with a good vent.

Reading off the fancy machine:  Efficiency : 81.8%, Excess Air: 155.8%, Stack Temp: 225 deg, Primary Temp: 60.3, (No delta Temp), O2:  13.3%, CO2: 4.3%, CO: 26 ppm, CO Air Free:, 72 ppm, Draft: -0.06 WC.   Boiler tech very helpful, seemed very knowledgeable, stated all reading were good. 

Tech also pointed out to past problems that could lead to more serious problems down the road.  At some point (maybe still) the boiler had a leak.  I attached some photos, tried to get some good shots but not sure if they came out that well.  I'm going to keep an eye on it and see if I can see a noticeable increase of water usage.  From my readings I may put a water meter of some sort on it to see if it's using more than it should.  Not sure if I'm ready to purchase a new boiler yet...hopefully it won't come to that.

Overall, very pleased with the service I got today.  I feel better knowing the system has been serviced.  Now I just had to find that "what's right and what's not right sound, feeling, etc.) 

Thanks again....

BobC

Pressure

4 PSI is too high, it should be 2 PSi or less. Your picture shows the white dial of the pressuretrol set at 2, try turning that down to 1 or less, it really won't turn much lower that one but see how far it goes. Those 0-30 PSI gauges are not very accurate at the low end of the scale and pressuretrols are not known to be precision instruments.



Last year I had to replace my pressuretrol for the second time in 13 years so I bit the bullet and put in a vaporstat and an auxiliary 0-3 PSI gauge so I could see what was going on. I've attached a pic so you can see how it's done, You can see the original 0-30 gauge in the background, it's required by insurance regs. My system now shuts off at 1 PSI.



Don't use the cheap big box air vents, I use Hoffman 1A's (adjustable) but any name brand is better than the junk some stores try to pawn off on you.



I hope that 225 stack temp was a typo, because that's muck too low!



Bob

jpf321

the combustion numbers...

really need to be commented on by an expert, but they seem a bit wacky to me. 

BOSN

Pressure

Bob, ok thanks.  the dial is set above 2 so I will push it back down.  I plan on going with the Hoffman #1's.  I can get a 6 package deal on-line and figure I just change them all out.

Question though, why all of a sudden would the pressure be going up, when it did not in the past?  Is something working now, after the cleaning that perhaps was not working before?  It seemed to heat up and push steam much faster.  I have never seen the gauge move up until today.  I have never seen it rise to 4 PSI, shut down, then fall back to 2 PSI and start back up again.  This only took a minute maybe for the pressure to drop and the boiler to come back on.  That does not make any sense to me???

Not sure if it was a typo or not???  It was read shortly into the process.  The header was just getting hot when the reading was taken.  The tech did take apart the vent pipe and cleaned it out.  The previous installers had used some type of boiler cement and it had basically turned to dust.  It was all put back together and some boiler cement was added.  Could the re-install have gone bad?  A vent flap perhaps not opening inside the box?  Hmmmm.  I'm going to have to watch that.

Thanks again

Chris

BOSN

Pressure

Bob, ok thanks.  the dial is set above 2 so I will push it back down.  I plan on going with the Hoffman #1's.  I can get a 6 package deal on-line and figure I just change them all out.

Question though, why all of a sudden would the pressure be going up, when it did not in the past?  Is something working now, after the cleaning that perhaps was not working before?  It seemed to heat up and push steam much faster.  I have never seen the guage move up until today.  I have never seen it rise to 4 PSI, shut down, then fall back to 2 PSI and start back up again.  This only took a minute maybe for the pressure to drop and the boiler to come back on.  That does not make any sense to me???

Not sure if it was a typo or not???  It was read shortly into the process.  The header was just getting hot when the reading was taken.  The tech did take apart the vent pipe and cleaned it out.  The previous installers had used some type of boiler cement and it had basically turned to dust.  It was all put back together and some boiler cement was added.  Could the re-install have gone bad?  A vent flap perhaps not opening inside the box?  Hmmmm.  I'm going to have to watch that.

Thanks again

Chris

jpf321

plugged pigtail??

chances are that your pigtail is now cleaner than before so the pressure is actually making it to the gauge and controls

BobC

Pressure and stack temp

What did the gauge read before it was serviced? Maybe the

work done on the boiler just freed up the needle but those gauges can

get pretty iffy with age. then again JPF321 could be right about the pigtail being cleaned out during the servicing.







The steam pressure will fall pretty quickly because the steam is

condensing on the pipes as it goes down the system till everything gets

hot. Low pressure steam moves pretty quick but takes a while to get all

that iron hot. When I really started to tweak things I'd sit in the

cellar and time the boiler to see how long it took the output pipe to

get steam hot and then how much longer it took for the main vent to get

just as hot. Any time I made a change I'd repeat that to see if I was

going the right way. At this point it takes my boiler about 14 minutes

to shut down on high pressure (mine is set for 1 PSI). Then the system

would condense and the boiler would fire again when the pressure dropped

to 0.3PSI. This goes on till the thermostat is satisfied. If the boiler

wasn't so oversized it would run for longer periods of time and be more

efficient. The system starts at about a minute off and a minute on and

buy the end of the cycle it's 1 min on and 2 minutes off; as I said my

boiler is too damn big. take a look at my runtime spreadsheet that attached.



The stack temperature could have been taken to soon after the boiler was fired up or maybe the instrument was set to read in degrees C instead of F. Do you have a thermometer that will fit into the small hole in the exhaust stack? A meat thermometer would work but don't let the wife catch you.



Bob

BobC

oops

Sorry about the huge type.



Lets see if the file I promised comes through this time.

jpf321

only PDFs and JPGs allowed

FYI, I think that only PDF and images are allowed as attachments here .. sounds like you were trying to post a SpreadSheet or something. 

jpf321

pigtail ..

if the pigtail wasn't cleaned, it should have been. 

BOSN

Pig tail & pressure

BobC....thank you!.  Your last post was totally understandable to me and I get it.  I don't recall the pressure gauge EVER moving.  I just assumed the pressure was good.  My system did pretty much what you explained yours did.  The only difference being mine tripped off at 4 PSI.  I am hoping when I turn the dial down to 1 that pressure will trip at 2.  I want to say It was about 25 minutes or so into a cold start when it hit 4 PSI.  Thermostat was on 80, but I'm thinking that does not really matter (maybe I'm wrong).  I am going to wrap pipes tomorrow and kick it back on.  I'm glad I am not the only one timing the heat as it travels down the pipe.  I almost have the firing order of my radiators as the steam moves through the pipes.  It still alludes though as I move from each one, by the time I make the round they all seem to have some heat to them.  From what little I know...I think that's a good thing.  :-)

I also just realized that one radiator has been removed.  The kitchen radiator.  One of the pics I posted earlier where I was asking about putting a main vent on is the kitchen branch off.  Should I be concerned about the missing radiator and the piping system.  The pipe has been removed, but I recall reading something about radiators being taking out could effect the boiler as it pertains to the pipes.  I'm not sure if the boiler was replaced after the kitchen remodel or before. 

JPF321, I was down them 90% of the time and I did not see the pigtail cleaned or removed.  Can't say for certain that it was or was not.  With the pressure gauge now actually moving and registering above "bottomed out", I'm thinking now the needle was stuck or maybe the pigtail was partially blocked and the cleaning of the boiler, removing of the housing unit top and side might have loosed it up.

BobC

Burn time data

The removed kitchen radiator won't have any meaningful impact as long as the capped pipe isn't leaking steam. I pasted the worksheet below so you can see my results. I looked for the data on the progress of the stem through the system but couldn't find it, it may be on my other computer.



Setting the thermostat artificially high will replicate the effect of coming off a night time setback. I set my system back about 4-5 degrees at night but a lot of folks just let run at a constant temperature. BTW I installed a elapsed time meter on my oil burner so I could track the boiler on time; from Jan 11 to Mar 11 my boiler ran for 79.3 hours. At that time I had a 1.25 gal per hour nozzle, that has been changed to a 1.1 gal per hour nozzle so I'll have to see how that works out.



JPF321 - thanks for the heads up on the allowable file attachment types.



The spread sheet has been enclosed in an attachment in the following msg.



Bob

BobC

run time PDF

Sorry that pasting of the spreadsheet worked out so poorly, hopefully the administrator will delete that post.



Enclosed please find a PDF version of the page



Bob

jpf321

you need to ..

edit the post yourself and delete all the whitespace .. click the EDIT button next to your post. It says "Edited by Admin" but it's actually by you :-)