High efficiency closet boiler install pic

JohnNY

I'm pushing one of my plumbers to step up to boiler installer technician.

Here's his first solo install:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/gatewayplumbing/5031131297/">http://www.flickr.com/photos/gatewayplumbing/5031131297/</a>



Not bad!

Ron Jr._3

Very nice install

Sweat joints are beautiful . How do you like the Weil Mclain ?

JohnNY

Not a huge fan of Weil-McLain as a company...

....but I do install a lot of Ultras. I think it's a pretty boiler and I've not had any real problems with reliability, which means I can actually make money with the product as opposed to throwing my woulda-been profit away on callbacks.

The display gives me the info I need to diagnose any problems quickly, too.



I was using the TT boiler until I found out the expensive way not to use them with coil-in-tank indirect water heaters.

It's a competitive market out there now, man. Gotta get them to sign and then make it all work the first time.

Brad White

John, could you please

expand on the limitations of using the TT with an indirect tank heater? News to me and I am curious. Thanks!

JohnNY

Well,

the Triangle Tube will lock out when the supply temp outpaces the return temp by 40°. So when I connected my customer's HTP SuperStor 60 to the Prestige I sold him, it would lock out once in a while.

Not when I was there, mind you, just one or twice a month I'd get an irate email in the morning.

Turns out, the coil in the tank plus the 16 feet of pipe (1-1/4") to and fro' the boiler was just enough to make the whole thing work *most of the time* using a Taco 0013 (http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/curves009-0014.pdf).

So, I found myself having to convince my architect/developer client (http://www.tamarkinco.com/) that I didn't just install the biggest POS boiler ever made in his own home by installing the biggest, most expensive Grundfos cartridge circulator, the new 50-150 or something.



We did a GREAT job and we made no money. And at the time, my client was bidding out Anderson Cooper's new house and I never even got to see a set of bidding plans.



Sweet story? Not to me.

Honestly, I don't know who to blame but myself for assuming it would all work together, but I've never had that type of problem with the Ultra.



I actually think the moral of the story is to stop using coil-in-tank indirects. The performance specs on the tank-in-tanks is so much better anyway.

tim smith

TT solo problem???

John, that is the setup I have used close to 30 times. I would be interested in what you were finding. There was a control compatibility issue with Honeywell aquastats and the TT output signal for dhw demand. But that was easy to resolve with a TT tank sensor. Give me a call at 206-571-6269 or email me. Tim

 Ps, great to see you post Brad

Brad White

TT and Coil-in-Tank Indirects

Thanks for the info, John.



If you do not mind my asking, what size TT did you use? I have some thoughts, or at least a direction of thought depending on what size boiler vs. that 60 SuperStor.

Also, was the SuperStor a commercial unit or standard residential?



E-mail me off-line if you like and I will share whatever I can figure out.



Also, I did not know about the 40 degree spread and wonder why that would be part of the control strategy. If I leave the boiler at 130 and come back at 90, I do not see that as a bad thing. That is a TT question for Guy Woolard, I suspect.



Thanks.



oh, P.S. - Tim, thanks for the kind words! It is good to be here, good to be back. A bit of catching up to do, but the faces look the same!

JohnNY

TT/SS

The TT I used was the Prestige Solo 250.

We did change to the new tank sensor as advised by the rep and were given the part for free, but that was to solve for another recurring error code.

The whole thing didn't work right until I put the $500 Grundfos pump on.

I shouldn't blame Triangle Tube. I've been to the factory and really do like the products and the company. I've got at least 6 or 8 399s installed out there that are performing beautifully. (See here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gatewayplumbing/4141964620/ )

What I did find out after digging deep into HTP's literature was that the heat exchanger in the SuperStor has a pressure drop of something like 20ft/hd.

Frustrating experience, but again, it was one of those things that I didn't think I needed to pay that much attention to. What is it that they say about "When you ASSUME...."?

clammy

Quick question on TT solo

I am excepting to help give a buddy a hand installing 2 prestige solo110 in the next few days ,this is not my selling job but i am just coming in to help get it all piped and wired  in a day and tested should i except to have issues with the prestige and using a buderus sb120 tank with the honeywell aquastat ,i did advise my buddy to get the sensor but he is a bit on the tight side and thinks it should come with the unit and that he should not have to pay extra for it ;alot different train of thinking then myself knowing that the unit will operate a bit differnent with the sensor then a standard aquastat .it will be piped P/S though .at least if i know there will a issue i will at least have a handle on him freaking out and complaining  to the large supply co which totally dropped the ball on delivery  of the unit to there location  (suppose to be there friday did not show up on monday either that's why i don't deal with them )nice install john i have installed the ultra many years ago was so so with them needed big pumps a o11 and 013  and the wiring was abit tight for myself but it ran good and have had no call backs with those few we did install  my friend was not happy about the pump sizing  being he wanted to go with smaller and cheaper pumps but that what you get when like john stated you assume .Again nice install john peace and good luck clammy

tim smith

RE: 250 & ssu60

John, we have had no problems with the TT 399s and superstore ssu 60s. Using ups2699fc which are substantially cheaper than you noted. I just wonder what was going on...  One item we have to watch out for here, any boiler over 199mbh connected to a indirect, indirect must be asme. They have some times exempted the ssu60 as its stated recovery dictates it does not absorb more than 199 mbh but this has been a hit and miss approval. I would verify in nyc that this won't pop up on you. Tim

tim smith

RE tank sensor with or not

They started shipping tank sensors with the boilers in the last year, so hit and miss depending on how old the stock is with vendor. I know this cause I just made that call on a delivery and asked it it going to be in there, "well I am not sure" he said. It was...

Mark Eatherton

Resolving DHW tank issues...

I quit using the typical North America, small coiled, high pressure drop storage tank design years ago.



I use the European LARGE coil, low pressure drop REVERSE indirect, like Thermomax or Ergomax.



They can take pretty much everything you can throw at them in a residential setting and convert 99% of that into hot water, AND keep the heat source in condensing mode ALL the time.



I had issues with a TT tank in a tank design on an apartment complex with a conventional Buderi atmospheric boiler. It seems the tank would not stratify and subsequently wouldn't satisfy, keeping the space heat locked out on DHW priority.



Rep told me to flip flop the boiler supply and return lines going into the tank. I wondered to myself, "I'll bet this is the first time they've EVER had this happen to them..." NOT!!



A word of caution regarding reverse indirects. If connected to a conventional non condensing heat source, you MUST protect the heat source from condensating. Typically, I set the tanks boiler supply water temperature at around 10 degrees F above the DHW target temperature. So, if you want 130 F potable water, then the boiler runs at 140, which means it will probably be returning to the boiler at 120 or less. Condensate City....



ME

Tim McElwain

I just copied this thread to

the rep at Triangle Tube as I am interested to see what they recommend. I am a big fan of Indirect for DHW particularly with the Ergomax concept. There have been from time to time issues with certain Mod/Cons with adapting to all brands of indirect versus the brand name indirect sold by the Mod/Con boiler installed.

JohnNY

HTP told me...

....that I may need to "shock the coil" and get some schmutz off of it that my be inhibiting heat transfer. I must admit I didn't even try that. I was getting a 30°∆T from the loop and it just seemed like flow through the high head was the real problem.

Again, no more coils with mod-cons for me.

Brad White

Your numbers are spot-on, John

Worth digging and your numbers, as expected- check out perfectly.



The SSU-60 has a PD of 7.9 feet at 10 gpm, but with a TT Solo 250 at 223 MBH output, will leave you with a delta-T of 44.6 degrees.



I figured the 16 feet of 1-1/4" copper, six els and tees, I get a pressure drop of about one foot at 10 gpm flow, so your base pressure drop at 10 gpm would be about 9.0 feet.

This fits nicely onto a Taco 0010 as a baseline.



If you raise the flow:

12 gpm = 37.2F delta-T; PD 12.4 feet.   (Taco 0012)

13 gpm = 34.3F delta-T; PD 14.25 feet  (Taco 0013)

14 gpm = 31.9F delta-T; PD 16.20 feet  (Taco 0011)



So, if the 40 degree spread dictates, you are right, you have to increase the flow enough to get a comfortable margins and your phone back to ringing for new work.



Brad

Brad White

What is unfortunate is,

this thread you started, John, was to give well deserved Kudos to your technician on the occasion of his first solo install. Sorry it took a turn, but we know how that happens. This indirect issue (no pun intended), certainly has legs and interest.



Maybe post again when the install is further along? I do not want your man to lose faith and appreciation!  Good work is always a pleasure to see.

JohnNY

Thanks, Brad.

I showed this thread to the installer and it made him very happy to know his work is being viewed by his professional peers....



It's a good feeling.