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New Lochinvar Knight Installation

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Comments

  • UnhappyLochivarclient
    UnhappyLochivarclient Member Posts: 19
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    Install

    Chris,



    I bought this property as a foreclosure and switched it from a single to a double, to answer your question I have no way of knowing. I brought in 3 contractors told them all to quote me on their best units this is where I stand, I redid the entire house and honestly I have had more problems with 1 of these 2 boilers than anything else I did.





    You mentioned something about crying, I am not sure what your function i am getting the feeling you are having a laugh at my expense here and I do not appreciate it. I asked above for people who are associated with lochivar to establish this, is this the case with you? I just want a resolution to my problem. Between the 2 units I could have bought a new car with what I spent. The units are in new england it isn't a super col climate and this winter has been very mild. If this was a car I would be protected by a lemon law but this isn't the case.



    Hopefully Paul and lochivar come to the plate to help me out here, I still have faith in them they are the company I thought they were when I made this investment!
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
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    Resolution

    If the boiler parts are out of the warranty period then what resolution do you expect? Further you just stated that you don't no whether the boiler was properly sized. Do you expect Lochinvar to establish that for you? You choose the contractor and to be honest, no heat loss, he is the one on the hook in my book not Lochinvar.



    The question becomes is the part defective from normal wear and if so, is the part still in the warranty period? You purchased the boiler and it was your responsibilty to understand the warranty at the time of purchase. It's not Lochinvars responsibilty to conceed into you because of the barking. Your investment was made in the contractor not in Lochinvar. They didn't install it nor did they knock on your door and sell it to you.



    My other post wasn't directed at you, rather the internet lawyer.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • UnhappyLochivarclient
    UnhappyLochivarclient Member Posts: 19
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    Resolution

    Chris,



    You are making a lot of assumptions based on your last response and you are not answering the question I have now asked you 3 times what is your function? Do you work for lochivar? I am starting to think the comment made above is accurate about asking me for pictures, I could respond with the photo in the book and lochivar will find a problem with it. I never said anything about sizing or what size units these are but they heat 2 different apartments 1 800 sf the other 650 sf 2 units for 2 apartments. What size boilers should thy be please answer that question before you say anything else
  • lchmb
    lchmb Member Posts: 2,997
    edited February 2012
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    Bob

    I am curious about the power issue that was brought up. Were you in fact aware that your installer made a critical mistake (line voltage to low voltage wiring) in wiring this unit? Was this the only error that was made in wiring the unit?

     I just finished dealing with another manufacturer, the installer made an error installing the vent's and pitched them (3 units) in the wrong direction. The unit had multiple problems and when the inspection was done by the manufacturer, the venting issue was pointed out and the warranty on all 3 unit's were voided. 

    And no, I do not work for Lochinvar....I work for a fuel supplier. As far as mid efficiency unit's not having as many issue's, that's not alway's the case. Installed a brand new furnace last week and the gas valve was bad out of the box. Hope to have the warranty valve tomorrow... 
  • UnhappyLochivarclient
    UnhappyLochivarclient Member Posts: 19
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    wiring

    Lchmb,

    I understand what you are saying regarding the wiring and I asked Paul at Lochinvar about this, he said if the unit has been running for 2 years since the problem it is not related. Paul at Lochinvar spoke with the guy and I asked him if there were any other red flags based on his conversation he didnt point any out to me, however he could still be at fault I dont know I am not a plumber. Regardless the homeowner is at a major disadvantage here as you assume the installer knows what he is doing as I did in this case and you assume the units are simple to install as others have pointed out on this board.



    I am getting a 3rd opinion this week as I called around and I am having someone come by to look at these units who has installed alot of them in the area, but based on what I was told by my installer and his references he installed abunch of these units and was familier with them. I know he owned all kinds of specialized equipment that hooked up to these boilers like a computer and some other stuff but again I dont know the details I am only a novice as I have pointed out in the past.



    This final part is for Paul if this 3rd opinion says the unit looks good and it is piped/running correctly and I send you pictures that meet your expectations will Lochinvar come to the plate and help me out with this issue. I said this earlier I still feel Lochinvar is a good company and this is a great opportunity to show everyone they stand behind their products! Paul I eagerly await your response!
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
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    My Function

    Is irrelevant. Which model size boilers are installed. The correct boiler size is the one my heat loss says it should be. I just can't grasp why you aren't all over the installer as you are with Lochinvar. Is it because you think if you bark loud enough they will give you what you want just to make you go away?
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Steve Whitbeck
    Steve Whitbeck Member Posts: 669
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    pictures

    Why won't You put the pictures on here???  Nothing against the Lochinvar rep but the local rep doesn't know as much about his boilers as I do.  I ran into a programing isue and He had to call the factory. There are designs for venting allowed in the install manual that I wont use. Reversion KILLS MOD/CON boilers.

    All of the install manuals still show concentric venting. I will not use them.

    If these MOD/CON boilers were easy to install they would sell them at Home Depot.

    They Must be installed by someone that Knows hydronics and control wiring and control setup. ONE THING WRONG and the whole thing can go bad.

    AGAIN - that blower is not a Lochinvar part. they are used on just about every high efficient boiler and water heater on the market today.

    If they are going bad every few years you have a problem with your installation.



    AND if you want to put some creditability into your posts use your real name as I and others here that care do.

    stevenwhi@msn.com

    Steven Whitbeck

    BELTLINE HEATING & COOLING
  • UnhappyLochivarclient
    UnhappyLochivarclient Member Posts: 19
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    Paul

    I am sure your knowledgable and a good guy however I am not putting anymore information on this blog until I speak with Paul.



    Regarding the pictures I don't live at that house anymore I rent it out and it isn't easy, I have hired a 3rd party to evaluate the job that is familier with the units as I am getting information all over the place.



    I am waiting on Paul until I post anything else about the install, as I said earlier I am not a plumber and I don't want to answer questions I am not qualified to answer. Paul please respond to my previous questions.
  • bill_105
    bill_105 Member Posts: 429
    edited February 2012
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    Quite entertainting

    Paul, just send them the **** part and be over with it . Oh ,get a release.

    There is a lot more mod/con trouble on the way.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
    edited February 2012
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    Bob,

    I had to go back and carefully read your first post to try and discern exactly what it is that you want Lochinvar to do. Am I correct in understanding that you have already had the combustion blower replaced and now you want some form of reimbursement from Lochinvar? If that is the case, let me state that in my 40 years in the trade I have never known of any manufacturer that would do that. If you had contacted them prior to the repair (maybe you did), then out of goodwill they could have possibly chosen to warranty the part even though they were not obligated to do so. But, as I said, if you are now seeking compensation after the fact, you've taken the wrong avenue.



    I do not work for Lochinvar. I am an independent contractor that sells and installs their products as well as many other brands. Therefore, I have no special interest in promoting them over another. You keep insinuating that anyone on here who wants to see and analyze your install is an employee or representative Lochinvar; that is not true. As far as I am aware, Paul Rohrs is the only one who is. The rest of us are contractors and the like who are well experienced in our field. As I and others have pointed out, we see this kind of thing regularly: an installer messes up a job; the home owner can't get him to correct it, then he feels it's the manufacturer's responsibility to fix it or pay to have it done. That's not equatable. The manufacturer did not install your boiler nor was he compensated to do so.



    America has become a society of "victomized" individuals. All of us to some degree are influenced by this mentality thanks to the "Joe-Smoe's" of the world. When anything goes wrong, we think someone else should be made to pay for it.



    You believe your boiler should not have had the failures it has had. I agree with you. But what has caused those failures? The only thing that we know of for sure at this point is that your installer applied line voltage to the low voltage terminals. That could not only have been the cause of the original board failure but of all your subsequent problems. I have to disagree with Paul somewhat about it not causing the blower failure. The blower has both low and line voltage connections. The low voltage are for communication with the board. If line voltage was applied to these via the board from the installer's error, then the blower could have been damaged originally. True, it's more likely the failure would have come sooner, but I've seen electronics due stranger things. Also, short cycling could be an issue.



    If you will provide the info requested (photo's, boiler model and size), you will find that an honest evaluation of your system will be given. Is that not what you want? If the installation is incorrect, don't you want to be made aware of what's wrong so that you can have it corrected and have system that works right?



    This board has many of the best hydronics people in the industry on it. And they are also some of the most un-biased. If you came here truly looking for answers, you'll get

    them. If you're trying to use this forum as a platform to voice your gripes and bash Lochinvar, that is not is purpose: please move on.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • UnhappyLochivarclient
    UnhappyLochivarclient Member Posts: 19
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    3rd party

    I am waiting for the 3rd party analysis before I go forward. I am sure this board has its share of knowledgable people but I am uncomfortable putting anything else till I get this evaluated properly from a person without anything at stake either side and is knowledgable with these units. If the 3rd party says it is the installers fault then I will let it be known but this message board is out of hand right now.



    I am not out to bash Lochivar, I had faith in them when I had these units installed and I still think they will do the right thing. I have spoken with Paul and he seems like a stand up guy! I think he will make sure what is right is done. Paul lets work as a team and get this resolved give me a call or send me an email when you get this.



    I will post the final resolution when Paul and I figure it out! Until then we are just going to beat around the bush because I will not disclose any new information until Paul figures out a resolution that works for both parties! Thank you in advance Paul for your help taking care of this in a timely manner!
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
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    Uncomfortable

    The only way one would feel uncomfortable getting advice and opinions from some of the brightest minds in the industry is that one wants to blame others when they should blame themselves from their mistakes.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Tim Potter
    Tim Potter Member Posts: 273
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    A couple of people want to turn Heating HELP in to Heating **** Session….

    Wow, The contributing members of Heating Help deserve a patience award for this post.



    The original poster, Ted, AKTed, has his post hijacked by ‘UHL’ who’s original version of the story wasn’t quite the story relayed by Paul R. after taking the time to contact the original installer. Ok I can see that, everyone puts their own spin on things, and busy people lose track of time, no biggie.



    IT is clear that ‘UHL’ is not seeking a solution to his problems, only to “Piss in the pond” so to speak.

    On many occasions he was asked by several professionals to post pictures so you guys could better help him in solving any issues he may have, be they Product or Installation.



    Nothing, Just a lot of- I can’t go back on the installer, because he is out of business, so it must be Locinvar’s fault.



    Then my miracle of miracles, 2 people who have never posted on this forum before pop up to declare their un-dying hate for Locinvar, a product that many of you, who live & die by your reputation, and have clearly stated, is a quality product that you have picked out of a crowded field of many Boiler manufactures & many models from each manufacturer, You then recommend and install them for the people who pay your bills, and who you go back every year and face them when you do the yearly maintenance. Well not much more to be said on that one.



    Then class warfare is brought in along with the Rev Jessie Jackson, to prove you can’t keep the oppressed landlord down for long, wow I was exhausted from just reading that post.



    So from a homeowner who enjoys & learns from “being in the room” with you experts, I say thank you for trying to help this homeowner who clearly isn’t listening to the experts.



    You may never know the real story, but keep on doing what you do, there are people out there who appreciate you and what you do.



    Tim
    Winter Park, CO & Arvada, CO
  • UnhappyLochivarclient
    UnhappyLochivarclient Member Posts: 19
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    picture

    I stopped by today and took a picture. I can see Paul hasnt responded on this board for the last few days and he probably doesnt want to be involved anymore and Lochivar's warranty is up on this unit and they will not be coming to the plate at this point. Paul I would like to say I still think you are a good guy and I wish you the best.



    I have had a few other plumbers look at this unit and they couldnt find anything else wrong with the install. I am interested to hear what people on this message board will be saying regarding the unit. I was surprised to not hear any complaints from the other guys who stopped by as most contractors I have dealt with over the years have that famous line when they first look at something "why did he do it this way?" lol. Whatever best of luck to all contributors of these posts. Chris you might want to tone it down a few notches in the future because while I am sure you are knowledagble your resort to insults and back handed comments quickly and I am sure this will cost you some customers at some point if it hasnt already. Just some constructive criticism.



    I am not perfect and never tried to mislead anyone. I agree Paul did seem to get alittle different story from the installer but was he trying to trap him into saying something, from what I saw another poster put up it seems Lochivar has its fair share of complaints and someone put something up about a lot more trouble coming up not sure what that means but I assume I am not alone here. I did indeed try to use this board as a form to get my point across and I can see it pops up high on google now because of all the action, I dont want other people to have the problems I have had and after spending $16,000 installing these units to have a repair nearing $1000 3 years later yes I am disappointed and that is part of the idea of blogs like this to share your experiences unfortunatly mine was not a positive one. Maybe Lochivar is a good company right now I do not share that opinion and I am entitled to that.
  • Jr_12
    Jr_12 Member Posts: 38
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    picture

    Can you get some better picture? One out of focus picture is not going to help resolve this. I would love to see a picture of the vent terminations on this job.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
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    Not Enough

    The picture you posted isn't enough. Can you please post a picture of the rest of the piping and provide boiler size. I can't tell from your pics but did they use the provided CPVC for the initial vent take off? Would also like to see a cleaner picture of the venting as well as where they terminate.



    Look, you came here and immeditately harped on Lochinvar. Seems that your entire issues are really with the contractor you chose and you own that responsibilty. Funny thing is that I still haven't seen in any of your post that any of your chosen contractors have yet to do a heat loss to make sure those boilers are properly sized and setup. My best advice to you is to make sure that is done.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • UnhappyLochivarclient
    UnhappyLochivarclient Member Posts: 19
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    vent terminations?

    I dont know what that is. I figured from reading the posts on this thing 1 picture would do it. Again I am not a plumber please be as detailed as posssible explaining.
  • Jr_12
    Jr_12 Member Posts: 38
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    Terminations

    I would like to see pictures of where the vents come outside. It also wouldn't hurt to get a closer shot of piping inside
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    The

    purpose of this site is to help people. And, unfortunately, there is no way anyone here can help you. Best Wishes and Good Luck
  • UnhappyLochivarclient
    UnhappyLochivarclient Member Posts: 19
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    vents

    I will do it next time I am there. I can say I looked at the install manual when I was there as it was left with the units and the outside of the vents looks exactly like it does in the manual. I am confident saying that. If that helps please let me know.



    I still think I just got a bum part and maybe or maybe not the installers error of wiring the unit played a role. Paul said with the amount of time that passed no and everyone I called regarding this said no way should have that blower went. I was told it was just electronics on the blower the blower itself was in great shape. Looks like I just got a bum part that is my take here. Maybe Lochivar wants to consider another supplier of that part in the future. In the mean time I am out almost $1000 and I do caution anyone else buying these units look closely at issues like this.



    Installers relay on the tax credit they get to help sell these units. If you are getting hit with big repairs within a few years of the install the tax credit benefit is lost. It is most likely just an isolated incident but I feel Lochivar could have helped me out someway with this issue.
  • Jr_12
    Jr_12 Member Posts: 38
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    Subject is dead

    You come on these forums with little information except that you want to preach how bad Lochinvar is. When asked for info or pictures you put it off and then go on your tangent again!? You're dealing with some of the most knowledgeable people in the states(excluding me) and it seems as though you really don't want an answer because you're afraid of the truth.
  • bld999
    bld999 Member Posts: 47
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    Dangerous Speculation

    Unhappy: you wrote



    " I agree Paul did

    seem to get alittle different story from the installer but was he trying

    to trap him into saying something, "          [italics mine]



    I don't understand what you are getting at here... you think an installing contractor would volunteer that he zorched the pcb with 120v because he was "trapped" by a question if he hadn't actually done so? I find the suggestion incredible.
  • lchmb
    lchmb Member Posts: 2,997
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    UHL

    I asked about the power spike because I think, although it didnt destroy it, it may have taken some life out of everything else in your system. With that in mind, even if it were not, when I sell a new mod/con to a person, I like to sit and talk with the purchaser. One of the big item's I discuss is warranty and maintanance. Yes these unit's, properly sized and installed can save you a lot in the way of fuel usage. They also require yearly service and in some case's, have a part or two fail. This is not specific to Lochinvar, I have seen much worse with other systems. If your installer failed to point out the warranty, and what it cover's, that's on him. Lochinvar does put it in their paperwork and that is something I would have also gone over with you. The warranty was for one year. The part lasted three...sorry it happens, it's electrical and parts fail...

    One other thought, the company I work for offer's service contract's for these types of units. This contract cover's a yearly service and includes most all electrical item's in the unit. Maybe it's something your supplier offer's and you should look into for peace of mind...Best of Luck

    Tom
  • UnhappyLochivarclient
    UnhappyLochivarclient Member Posts: 19
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    shock

    Tom,

    Thanks for your help! I think your theory has the best chance of being right of anything I have seen on this board. Any other components you have inmind that may have taken some damage with that shock? I am going to call up the original installer and speak to him about this even though he is not in the business any longer I am still going to make my concern known. Thanks again out of everyone on this board I found you the most helpful!



    Other than what Tom had to say I agree dead issue and regarding the vents outside I wasnt at the house any longer I gave my best description based on what I saw, I have noticed alot of stuff has been taken out of context on this board like at one point I described the apartments the units were heating and someone said I admitted the units were improperly sized, I dont even know what the proper size is so how could I say that. One final thing I noticed is a few of these posts were edited and I noticed the 2 had been were negative towards Lochivar the only thing I can say is interesting.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
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    Edited Posts

    When you see an edited post it is the poster editing his post. To imply that Dan or one of his staff edited anothers post is speaking on the integrity of someone that is well respected and a line you don't want to cross.



    You really don't have an understanding of those that posted experience. We can tell when a boiler is oversized simply based on experience and knowledge. Those are awful small apartments and the smallest Lochinvar boiler would be oversized. I don't need a heat loss to tell me that. What I do need it for is to devise a piping, control and setup that keeps it from short chcling as best I can. That's the difference between a contractor and the heating professionals here that are trying to help.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,526
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    True.

    The only posts I edit are my own.
    Retired and loving it.
  • lchmb
    lchmb Member Posts: 2,997
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    Bob

    Sometime's the best thing said is nothing. Dan is an honorable man and this site is visited by those I consider the best in the field. You had a unit with a part that went bad. The warranty offered by the manufacturer expired..end of subject...Fix it and move on.

    btw, edit one of your own post's and you'll see what it say's after doing so. Sometime's we assume, and sometime's we learn from mistakes....
  • UnhappyLochivarclient
    UnhappyLochivarclient Member Posts: 19
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    Thanks

    Tom



    Thanks for the insight, I am just going to pay the bill and hope I dont get hit with much more. I thought I was getting a top level warranty but upon further review it was the industry standard, that is my main problem and this whole thing go off track and I think we are all guilty myself included.



    If I offended anyone with a post as you pointed out I am sorry for that. Good luck in the future!
  • Steve Whitbeck
    Steve Whitbeck Member Posts: 669
    edited February 2012
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    picture

    Even with that blurry picture I see something I don't like.

    And You can't say You didn't know to take a picture of the vent terminations - I asked for it.  The exhaust pipe on the LH boiler looks to run downhill - this will trap water. It doesn't take much of a build up to cause problems, It doesn't have to actually block the pipe.

    Also - Mounting those low water cut offs out on those 5 inch extensions like that is asking for trouble. Those LWCO's are supposed to be mounted directly on a tee.

    With them mounted like that you will get a build up of crud under the sensor probe that will short out the probe ( what the water is supposed to do) and make the LWCO think there is water there when there isn't. These boilers were not installed by professionals in hydronics.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    edited February 2012
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    Personally...

    I don't feel this situation is resolved. I asked early on for numerous different views of the near boiler piping. You gave us one photo, too far away to be able to determine what's going on behind the boilers. I (we) want to help, but you're the one running the show.



    I am getting the outside impression that you are backing off of your claim against the manufacturer, which is fine, but we want to make sure that you don't end up having problems again (REGARDLESS of the manufacturer).



    It also appears, for whatever reason, that you are somewhat paranoid. No one can change anyone else's posts. The owner of the site can and will completely yank a post if things get too nasty, but he will not/can not EDIT someone else's posts. ONLY the person making the post can edit it, and even if you go back into a post just to correct a typing error, the Admin notice is attached to the post.



    For the most part, people around here are a fair bunch of people, and they are not out to get you. To the best of my knowledge (and I've been on this site since day 1) Paul is the only person representing Lochinvar posting on this thread. Others (including myself) are dealers of their product, but do not speak for them, only for ourselves, and our experiences.



    Your call, post more/better pictures so we can try and diagnose your problem, or drop it and move on and free up space for others who are seeking help.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • UnhappyLochivarclient
    UnhappyLochivarclient Member Posts: 19
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    Mark

    I havent dropped the issue but I think this isnt going anywhere at this point. I forwarded this blog to my installer and he told me he would write in. I got the impression he was insulted when he heard people on the board questioned the quality of the work.



    I still think Lochivar should have helped me out with the blower part or atleast ate some of the cost. Hopefully the installer can talk more intelligently about these units if he writes in. As I said several times I am not a heating guy and this isnt my cup of tea, obviously it is your cup. If you can help me Mark I appreciate it.



    Maybe next weekend I will be able to make it by to take additional photo's. Also what ever happened to Paul he went MIA on this blog?
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    Understood...

    No one likes to be criticized. I think Steve was simply trying to point out (validly so) that as installed, the Low Water Cut Off devices may be problematic. There really isn't much detail, and really other than Steves' one comment, I haven't seen anything that could be considered critical of the installer.



    As the web site name implies, we are here to help.



    As for Paul, I think he's had his say. No reason to continue the conversation. I'm certain that if you send him an email question, he will respond accordingly. He's good people, and we've know him LONG before he became a member of the Lochinvar family. He too was a contractor, working in the field.



    Look forward to seeing the pictures.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
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