THE most NATURAL hydronic heating system in the world....

Mark Eatherton

Actually, it uses the Earth as it's heat source.



Gwen Healy, a.k.a. Radiator Ranger, and her new a.k.a. from me, Goddess of Cast Iron Comfort and Beauty, hired me to come to the Breitenbush Hot Springs Resort and Conference center to review their hydronic heating system and make recommendations to improve performance, reliability, efficiency and comfort.



This system is one of those systems that makes you scratch your head and say "WOW!!!, Huh???" It has many issues, one of which is a leak factor of around 7.5 GPH in their underground piping system which MUST be found and eliminated.



The system has been operating since its conception (around 30 years) without an expansion tank. Easily done, because other than major emergencies, they never shut it down. They can't, because if they quit flowing water on the closed loop side of the hydronic heating system (immersed 2" BIP down hole of well) the well, which also provides mineral water to their hot tubs/springs starts getting REAL hot, like over 200 degrees F. Interesting thing is, there is NO P.O.N.P.C. that I could find, yet the pumps appear to be making relatively positive pressure, although I feel that a PONPC would make them work MUCH better.



One of my immediate suggestions, based on what I was seeing in the field, was to perform a good flush of the heat source, well 4. They grabbed the biggest pumps they could find, that being a small gas powered pump, to draw river water and feed it into the tank of the local fire pumper. Talk about a MEGA purge cart... Siggy, you have their permission to include the picture of their purge cart in your slide presentations. They would also love to have you visit if you are ever in the area. Take them up on the offer.



In the process of forward flushing the down hole HXer, we were getting a blood red water out of the loop, and it made me think that possibly they were dealing with a "Iron Reducing Bacteria" because that is the ONLY thing I have seen cause this blood red colored water.



So, we decided to back flush the down hole heat exchanger, and in the process, inadvertently closed both isolation valves at the same time to the wells heat exchanger. Mother nature reared her powerful head, causing the HXer pressure to cause the ball valves to lock up. I now know how BP feels in the GoM, except this wasn't 1 mile deep. As I was panickly trying to get a ball valve to open to relieve the expanding water pressure, a defective 2" tee decided to bust loose. Fortunately for me, the angel I carry around on my shoulder was watching over me, and I caught the majority of the blast with my chest, which was heavily protected by numerous jackets/shirts/rain coat etc. I didn't get scalded, just knocked for a loop and VERY wet.



One of my first recommendations will be to install a 50 PSI relief valve so the chances of this happening again are slim to none...



The power of Mother Nature has always had my respect, but this really put things into perspective.



Anyway, I know numerous Wallies have had conversations with the Radiator Ranger over the years, and I thought I would share some photographs of the unique system that they have.



Thanks again to Gwen Healy and Peter Moore for the opportunity to view and review their unique community and working systems.



Enjoy, and ask away.



ME

Mark Eatherton

The well head surrounded by snow fence...

is an untapped resource. Upon completion, it flowed at 385 GPM of 186 degree F water. Assuming an entering ground water temperature of 40 degrees F, that represents 28,105,000 btuH.



They haven't decided exactly what they are going to do with that well yet, but electrical power generation is one definite possibility, and a large commercial production greenhouse is also possibly in their plans,



They inadvertently froze and broke the well head a few winters back, and one of their systems operators said they were making their own snow from the fog that the hot water was making as it flowed to the river.



Awesome stuff....



ME

Mark Eatherton

Speaking of electrical generation.....

They have a low head hydro electric plant which diverts river water into their turbine, and two diesel electrical generators that are brought on line during peak demand and or hydro shut down due to excess flotsam getting caught in their intake screens.



Other than having to truck food on to the land, they are completely self sufficient. And they are working on that issue...



How's THAT for sustainability :-)



ME

Tim McElwain

The ultimate

geothermal system I would say.

Radiator Ranger

Radiator Ranger @ Breitenbush Hot Springs

Hi,



As ME said, we're 'off the grid' here; Breitenbush provides all its own utilities (including phone, internet, electricity, geo-heat, septic, domestic water, road maintenance, emergency medical, fire suppression (thus the HUGE 'purge cart'), etc.). Not exactly the Wild West, but no metropolis either.



We've got an incredible heat resource with self-drilled, heat wells (1 is ~430' deep, another ~720" deep, another ~1200' deep) with a small, district heating system (130+ buildings). The system was installed in the early 1980's with buried copper piping for distribution, and CI radiators for emitters. We did a lot of things right, and we missed a few key points P.O.N.P.C. (for example)... We're looking to replace our poor practices with best practices and move into the future with a robust heating system.

We also have a well that is potentially capable of producing power and supporting greenhouses for food production, etc. While my initial motive and focus was towards CI rads., I've begun to understand there are many ways to access and utilize the heat / energy resource here.



In an effort to understand our heating system, I began to study central heating and eventually found The Wall, met ME and others. Nothing I've read really describes the system I live and work with, but I keep reading and studying and learning and reading and studying because I figure this system is more similar to other central heating systems than different. I have learned a lot over the years and I am no longer intimidated by radiators.



At some point, I began to seek out and purchase small, cast iron radiators so Breitenbush could have a way to replace non performing radiators or units that inadvertently get frozen during cold periods. Initially, radiators were intimidating and alien, but now I think of them as the warmest friends I'll ever meet; having hauled nearly 200 units to the springs. This facility is designated as a Wildlife Sanctuary and we've also got a Wild Radiator Sanctuary a.k.a. Radiator Palace - (a 40' shipping container for radiator storage and work). If you're on the West Coast and know where there is a stash of radiators, let me know - I'd like to meet them and bring them home....



Radiator Ranger is a role I grew into after several years of unnecessarily cold living at the hot springs. My 'house' (143SF) did not get over 55ºF regardless of the TRV setting - the building had a 5' long, ornate, window radiator when I moved in, and knowing NOTHING about heating systems, I knew the radiator should heat the space.



We're aiming to 'fix' or reengineer the existing system so it lasts and lasts. There is so much potential here, so much goodness and some big leaks.



It's been great to finally meet ME (thanks for the visit Mark) and begin moving towards addressing consequential issues with our heating system. We've got a lot of options and opportunity here but we still have a lot to learn and do to get out geo-heat system working as well as it can. I'm interested in hearing any thoughts and questions you may have.



Stay Warm,

Gwen Healy - Radiator Ranger



Pictured below:



1) The red water ME described.





2) Conrad, ME and Frosty (the refrigerated truck we use for our weekly 'town runs' providing 3 meals per day for 80-140 guests and 60-90 employees).





3) Our little snow machine a.k.a. the busted hot water well head that has since been repaired.





4) An image of the broken well head.





5) The Radiator Sanctuary / Palace.







Stay Warm and engage your world,



Gwen Healy - Radiator Ranger

bill_105

Ditto

Up here it's Chena Hot Springs

tim smith

Hi Gwen, long time no hear from.

I see the radiator ranger is still at it. By the way, did you ever look into the green machine waste heat generator????? Good to see your still around. Tim

Radiator Ranger

Low Temp Geothermal Power Production

Hi Tim,



Yeah, I'm still here wrangling radiators. I haven't done much this year but it's about time to get started.



I was in school for a while which took all my energy and focus....



I looked into The Green Machine - they say a higher water temperature is needed (than we have) to produce power. Of course what they are doing at Chena is also beyond what the manufacturer specifications were, and they're producing power right now.



Bill is right - Chena Hot Springs is a good example of what is possible with low temperature hot water. They are producing power with a similar hot water resource (they also have really cold water available which is important). At Chena, they use the hot water resource for space heating, soaking pools, an ice museum, heating greenhouses and power production. I'd love to spend a few weeks / months at Chena to better understand what they are up to.



I'd also like to begin learning more about greenhouses, food production, etc. A trip to Chena would help with this, and there are folks in Hawaii doing good work with Aquaponics too.



OIT in Klammath Falls, OR., recently brought a power production system online using Low Temperature Hot Water. Klamath Falls is working with the same manufacturer of the system they have in place at Chena Hot Springs. (Pictured below)



At Breitenbush, we've got to get better at managing out existing geothermal resource use i.e. our district heating system before (as) we move towards food production and/ or power generation with another well. Until we eliminate our leaks and improve other elements of our system, we'll be fighting an uphill battle unnecessarily i.e. our pumps (and people) will be working harder than necessary (using more of the limited 42KW we produce with our hydro system), our radiators will continue to fill with sediment (see picture below) and we'll blow through radiators in 25 years, we'll have to spend more time repairing and replacing pumps, etc. Understanding and changing elements in this system is possible, but it requires time and patience. We've got a lot to learn from people that know about hydronics and plumbing.



It was warm and clear here today for the first time in what seems like months. At dusk, the air is exquisite.



Glad to be here,



Gwen Healy - Radiator Ranger



Below are pictures of various geothermal resource uses.



1) Cutaway of a radiator removed from the Breitenbush heating system after (only) about 25 years of installation.



2) A greenhouse radiator. Klamath Falls, OR.



3 & 4) Geothermal greenhouse heating using the bagpipe method (my term) i.e. the air handler draws heat from the water and feeds hot air to the plastic bag which distributes heat through the greenhouse. An interesting note on the crop: the plant is a bean used to support aphid growth, grown to feed preying mantis, which is sold to address aphid problems....



5) An outdoor pool that uses geothermal water to heat the pool which they use to grow tropical fish (you can see the goldfish in the water). Klamath Falls, OR.



6) Distribution piping for a municipal snowmelt system. Klamath Falls, OR.



7) Power production using low temp. geothermal water at OIT in Klammath Falls, OR.

Radiator Ranger

Low Temp Geothermal Power Production

Hi Tim,



Yeah, I'm still here wrangling radiators. I haven't done much this year but it's about time to get started.



I was in school for a while which took all my energy and focus....



I looked into The Green Machine - they say a higher water temperature is needed (than we have) to produce power. Of course what they are doing at Chena is also beyond what the manufacturer specifications were, and they're producing power right now.



Bill is right - Chena Hot Springs is a good example of what is possible with low temperature hot water. They are producing power with a similar hot water resource (they also have really cold water available which is important). At Chena, they use the hot water resource for space heating, soaking pools, an ice museum, heating greenhouses and power production. I'd love to spend a few weeks / months at Chena to better understand what they are up to.



I'd also like to begin learning more about greenhouses, food production, etc. A trip to Chena would help with this, and there are folks in Hawaii doing good work with Aquaponics too.



OIT in Klammath Falls, OR., recently brought a power production system online using Low Temperature Hot Water. Klamath Falls is working with the same manufacturer of the system they have in place at Chena Hot Springs. (Pictured below)



At Breitenbush, we've got to get better at managing out existing geothermal resource use i.e. our district heating system before (as) we move towards food production and/ or power generation with another well. Until we eliminate our leaks and improve other elements of our system, we'll be fighting an uphill battle unnecessarily i.e. our pumps (and people) will be working harder than necessary (using more of the limited 42KW we produce with our hydro system), our radiators will continue to fill with sediment (see picture below) and we'll blow through radiators in 25 years, we'll have to spend more time repairing and replacing pumps, etc. Understanding and changing elements in this system is possible, but it requires time and patience. We've got a lot to learn from people that know about hydronics and plumbing.



It was warm and clear here today for the first time in what seems like months. At dusk, the air is exquisite.



Glad to be here,



Gwen Healy - Radiator Ranger



Below are pictures of various geothermal resource uses.



1) Cutaway of a radiator removed from the Breitenbush heating system after (only) about 25 years of installation.



2) A greenhouse radiator. Klamath Falls, OR.



3 & 4) Geothermal greenhouse heating using the bagpipe method (my term) i.e. the air handler draws heat from the water and feeds hot air to the plastic bag which distributes heat through the greenhouse. An interesting note on the crop: the plant is a bean used to support aphid growth, grown to feed preying mantis, which is sold to address aphid problems....



5) An outdoor pool that uses geothermal water to heat the pool which they use to grow tropical fish (you can see the goldfish in the water). Klamath Falls, OR.



6) Distribution piping for a municipal snowmelt system. Klamath Falls, OR.



7) Power production using low temp. geothermal water at OIT in Klammath Falls, OR.

Radiator Ranger

Somehow the images didn't post....

Oops, somehow I made a double post and didn't get the pictures into the message.



Warmly,

Radiator Ranger