Who has the best residential gas steam boiler

Bobby3

My 30+ year old Peerless Steam boiler has sprung a leak,  temporarily being heald together with boiler Solder,   But I am in need of a a replacement. 

i have used Burnham products in the past and have had good luck but am interested in what other options i should consider or just plain stay away from.

Boiler is 1 pipe steam that was piped wrong when unit was system was converted from oil to gas many moons and many homeowners ago.  over the past 5 years that i have been in the house i have been able to make some improvements

I have read the lost art of Steam heat and have picked up some helpful hints like relocating my main line vents.  Now i need some industry insight as too who makes the best boiler for my residential single pipe steam. I can vent to a chimney that needs to be lined or i can vent to the outside direct via power vent.

Look forward to your thoughts Bobby

Unknown

Gas Steam Boiler

For efficiency, the consensus here among the pros as to the best gas boiler, is the Slant/Fin Intrepid or Smith G-8 with a power burner.  Let us know where you're located and possibly we can direct you to one of the guys that specializes in these units.

 For oil, the Burnham Megasteam seems to be at the top of the list and everyone is wondering when Burnham will set it up for gas.

- Rod

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Yep, what Rod said....

I have used both on/off Heatwise burners and Power Flame modulating burners in  the Slant Fins.  If you are accustomed  to a quiet boiler, power burners do make noise like oil burners.  For a quieter option, The Slant Fin Galaxy boilers work nicely with a built in and very effective skimmer to help keep the boiler clean.  Also, somehow despite a smallish 2 1/2 inch tapping, they make bone dry steam up to at least 190,000 btu/hr input.   It is probably due to the large steam drum located off to the side of the main heat input to the castings and a cast in inclined plain near the steam outlet.  Slant Fin is the absolute tops for being the most principaled company that I have ever dealt with in any field. 



The picture below is of a pair of Slantfins with Heatwise burners.

nicholas bonham-carter

one more option

you could always replace the sections if the boiler size is correct for the connected radiation load..and you have a stocking peerless distributor nearby.

of course, the burner has to be in good shape too. the stem headers can be corrected at the time of replacement--nbc

jpf321

S/F Interpid on Gas?

I looked hard at the SlantFin Intrepid in my search for a new boiler .. their website states the Intrepid is OIL. I saw posts here from Steamhead that stated the Intrepid is "Gas Certified" but when I asked about where that info is available, I got no response. I did speak with the S/F regional sales rep and while he did admit that the Intrepids were rated for gas, he said I probably would have a hard time finding a contractor willing to put a gas burner in.



On top of all of that, I have heard a rule of thumb is to not convert an boiler originally intended for OIL to GAS .. better to simply get a gas boiler in the first place ..



so my question here is are Intrepids really in the field as GAS boilers and if so, what burners, specifically (Brand/Model) are going into them?



thanks

Bobby3

Old G 461 Peerles compared to new Smith or slantfin

so my 6 burner peerless with standing pilot rear draft hood compares to these recommendations how, the Smith and Slantfin appear to be oil boilers with a gas burner, how much louder are they? as i am sure my wife will wonder what the comotion is in the basement if it is too loud,  the other Slantfin with the skimming ports seems like a good alternative, is this most like what i have now????  Presently I am a genius to my wife for silencing the steam beast in the basement by moving some main line vents and dropping the pressure (thank Dan)  don't want to loose these crudentials when picking out our new beast for the basement.

Bobby

Steamhead

I thought I did respond, JPF

but as busy as I've been it may have fallen thru the cracks.



Slant/Fin's website has not been updated to reflect that the Intrepid boilers are approved for use with Carlin EZ-Gas, HeatWise SU or Midco EC power gas burners. You will need to call the company if you need documentation to this effect- I have it somewhere at the shop but it's probably buried. Ask for Bob Flanagan and tell him I sent you.



We have several gas-fired Intrepids in service. Here are some pics of them. That's my partner Gordo in the third pic.

Steamhead

They sound

just like oil burners. I don't find that objectionable.

jpf321

thank you sir ...

funny, when I was there for my impromptu visit, Cindy who is head of Marketing had no clue either. And Perry, the regional sales rep isn't in the loop either so it would seem. But thank you.



i'm still on the fence i guess between sticking with oil or converting to NG .. once thing that i really am afraid of is sticking with oil and then springing a leak in my 50+y.o. underground tank in the front yard.



as I understand it, in order to move to gas, I will likely need to

1) line my chimney ($2000)

2) call in a company to "abandon" my 550gal oil tank .. ($2500)

3) additional NG piping (~$500)

4) getting the NG company involved

5) NYC code filings.



sticking with oil avoids all of that. i also understand that moving to NG locks me into the monopoly of the NG company...



can anyone weigh in on the need for chimney lining when moving from oil to gas?

Unknown

QT Alternates

Hi JPF-

After reading your comments I think you may have run into a phenomena that is quite common in a lot of equipment companies. The company sells a piece of equipment in a standard configuration which is satisfactory for most applications. Quite often there maybe alternate configurations that could be applied in certain circumstances but the knowledge on this is kept quiet as the average installer is likely to get himself into trouble trying to install the alternate configuration.

Our company sold a specialized hydraulic pump that was in the above category. We kept the alternate configurations very secret and only gave out this info. to the people who we knew had the mechanical and engineering knowledge to apply the pump in an alternate mode. We had a case of where one our sales people found out about the alternate configuration and without approval, passed it along to a customer with the end result that after many phone calls and emails I had to fly out and fix the pump and do a lot of PR damage control to save a big account. The word then went out to the sales dept. that the pump as far as they were concerned was only offered in standard mode and if they even mentioned otherwise they would face physical dismemberment.



I’m not saying that this is the policy in this case but as this is pretty common policy in a lot of companies I thought mentioning it might help throw some light on the situation. It makes sense.  Put yourself in the position of a typical boiler company. After what we have seen on this board of the gross installations done by“knuckleheads” who are supposedly heating pros, would you disclose the knowledge of a more complicated  alternate configuration to the “average” installer or much less  a home owner off the street? I doubt it, unless your were very confident they knew what they were doing.

Just a thought.

- Rod

jpf321

thanks rod ..

thanks rod .. i wasn't trying to blame anyone for having secret alternatives .. but it seems like the info just wasn't even passed along .. like they "didn't get the memo" .. I think that in recent months, more and more people are switching to Gas (generally) and fewer people are looking at S/F (generally, at least in this market) .. so if they have a Gas configuration and are looking for better market penetration, it would make sense to unveil it .. it may be that they are not cost competitive as a gas option, or they are trying to remain niche as an oil option .. or trying to push their Galaxy line as their gas option .. i don't know.



I did try calling Bob F. today but he is on vaca..I will try him again next week. 

Luv'nsteam

Chimney liner

Jpf, while I cannot comment on the particulars of oil versus gas for a chimney liner, what I can tell you, is that it is about exhaust temperatures.  For instance, in my own application, the ancient boiler I took out had a flu temp of around 800 degrees.  My new Peerless WBV-3, has flu temps around 400 degrees.  The issue with the temp difference has to do with condition of your existing chimney.  If it is perfect and built correctly, you needn't worry about it (as far as I have learned: disclaimer- I am not a chimney or HVAC expert.  What I know, I learned from doing research for my own application).  The lower flu temps, when combined with moisture, create (sulfuric acid, I think) and if you have missing flu tiles and/or bad mortar joints, the acid can eat them away even further allowing exhaust gas into your home.  It is a safety issue.  If you are curious, I installed my own liner and I purchased a kit from Heartshearth.com.  It was easy to install and has lifetime warranty.  The flex liner I installed is made from titanium-stainless steel alloy.  I easily picked up the 35 foot long, 6" ID liner .  The other parts were made from 18-8 and 316 stainless.



Mike

jpf321

thanks Mike

can you provide a more direct link for Heartshearth.com .. since that one seems to come up as a parking/spam/ad site.



jpf

Unknown

Chimney Liners

JPF - Try this link: [url=http://www.chimneylinerinc.com/]http://www.chimneylinerinc.com/ It has a lot of good info. Note  the comparison chart has the names of most of the chimney liner players. I  looked into liners last summer and ran across this site. Thumb rule for professionally installed is about $100 /ft.

Go only with 316 TI  Edit: Thanks JPF for the correction. I will have to remember to check older links.

- Rod

jpf321

thanks rod...

that link didn't work .. but this link did : http://www.chimneylinerinc.com/

Polycarp

insulation

Did you insulate your liner?  or just go with the liner alone?  My reading suggests that insulation is most important with wood stoves and may not be necessary for gas appliances.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Some other information on Intrepids....

If you look into the  Caravan version of these boilers  (modular boiler setup) you will also find they come with a dual fuel burner.  RE: the complexity of installing a gas burner,  I am not trained at installing oil burners, but I believe the installation and proper tuning of a gas burner is much easier than that of an oil burner.

There appears to be a significant efficiency gain by going to a power burner Intrepid over a Galaxy or any other boiler of that type.   All the back losses from the flame are eliminated and the flame is much more efficient.   It is interesting that in a couple recent installs when I replaced some standard atmospheric gas boilers (with open ribbon burners (albeit the boilers were grossly over sized) and no stack dampers) with Intrepids equipped with gas burners the boiler rooms that used to be roasting are now quite cool.  Just remember that when looking at AFUE efficiencies they assume all the standby heat loss and burner radiation losses to the boiler room is usable heat.  With the Intrepids, there is very little of that heat,so it goes into the system instead.  Steamhead believes there is about a 7% improvement in efficiency.  I suspect that is quite conservative from my experience.

If you go to a modulating burner (now these do take some work to tune in) you have another significant seasonal efficiency gain if the system has a variable load such as TRV's, multiple zones, or can be run with outdoor reset of pressure.  I believe another 12% gain in seasonal efficiency seems reasonable, maybe greater, over an on/off boiler. 

Overall, together, the gain could improve seasonal efficiency by about 20% over open burner boilers.  That's something to look closely at.

I hope to be putting together an article on these ideas in the next few months.

Unknown

Tremendous Potential

It absolutely amazes me that the boiler/burner manufacturers haven't yet come up with an easily adjustable 2 stage burner setup, in gas and in oil, for residential steam boilers. It would seem to me that the first manufacturer offering this would own the whole market and would have homeowners lining up at their door.  With fuel now costing thousands of dollars a season and increasing, a potentially possible10- 20 percent savings is mind blowing.

Boiler Pro's comments and input are, as always, very interesting and thought provoking. I look forward to his future article. For those of you who are reading this and haven't read Boiler Pro's most recent article you can find it at the following link.

- Rod

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/11/Hot-Tech-Tips/1551/Taking-Another-Look-at-Steam-Boiler-Sizing-Methods-by-Dave-Boilerpro-Bunnell

jpf321

the enthusiam is good...

the enthusiasm for such a "breakthrough" boiler is great .. but don't forget that very very few "customers" ever see an ad or do research for a boiler .. they call in the plumber that their friend referred to them and take the plumber at his word .. that this is the right solution .. it is the plumbers that get marketed to .. if the incentives or profit margin isn't right for the plumber .. the customer is out of luck .. many plumbers that i've spoke with say .. i usually recommend or put in X brand .. but i'll install whatever you want me to...



of couple of guys came with a particular brand's flyer in hand .. would be nice if the plumber instead came with a binder of several options and knew the differences between them .. but at the end of the day .. all boilers are the same aren't they .. so why bother. i mean .. a tea kettle is a tea kettle .. just depends on what color and size you want. 

Charlie from wmass

With what I see each day

It is hard enough to get a single stage boiler properly tuned and cared for. Manufacturers are selling to the bulk market. I see a handful of boilers installed close to right and fewer yet tuned and cared for. Until the level of skill is common in our trade the staged boilers will be kept on the commercial end where the skill level is maintained due often to the Darwin effect. Keep it simple unless you can control it from your end.

Charlie from wmass

double

post

jpf321

just spoke with BF @ Slantfin

I just spoke with Bob F. and he confirmed as above .. it hasn't hit the website or brochures yet. You would order the boiler less burner and add a burner from the above options. Thanks Steamhead!

Luv'nsteam

functional link

Hello jpf.  My apologies for the long delay.  Between no email alerts (I actually received one today for the first time in nearly two and half weeks) and working sun-up to sun-down, doesn't leave much time for squat. :  )



Anyway, here is a good link.  I misspelled the first one.



http://hartshearth.com/



The site is a bit overwhelming and I think it could use some better organization, but hey, what do I know? lol



As Rod said, it seems to run around $100.00 per foot to have the liner installed.  Be careful with your estimates though, most of the chimney people I did get estimates from where not installing anything anywhere near as complete as the kit I purchased.  If you do it yourself, let me know, as I learned a few things that will definitely save you time and effort.



Mike

Luv'nsteam

Insulated liner

Polycarp, your findings are the same as mine.   Insulation is required by code (in my neck of the woods and perhaps many others also.  Maybe federal???) when using the liner with a wood stove (solid fuel).  Before I knew that, I did look into insulating my liner from hartshearth.  They have a really cool and easy to use (it appears.....) ceramic insulation and with an outer "Chinese finger-torcher-like" wire material that protects the insulation during installation.  It is not, however, inexpensive.  Hope this helps.



Thank you,



Mike

Teserakt

Reviving Post...

It's been a couple-plus years since this thread was active, but I've found the information quite, well, informative, and am wondering whether there might be any updates to "who has the best residential gas steam boiler?"  I'm in the market for a gas, steam boiler, and there certainly seem to be many many manufacturers, but it's difficult to find comparative information. 



My current unit has an input rating of 290,000 BTU/HR with a Steam rating of 725 sq. ft.



Much appreciated!

prairiekats

I need help too! glad to see the thread revived

We have a 11400 sq ft 101yr old house that we love to death. We also love the steam radiators. REALLY love them. But the over 50yr old boiler went kaput finally. We hope to use both our attic and our basement before long so that's an additional maybe 1500sq ft. What should we be looking for?

Also, we really need to be able to install it ourselves. We have 2 sons-in-law ready to help who are both pretty capable - one being a rancher who maintains all his own equipment.

And we are thoroughly and completely broke! ha ha

I've seen some galaxy models that seem perfect and maybe affordable. But reading through this thread it sounds like there are more things we need to buy in order to finish the installation?

Sorry, lots of questions but if someone can help . . . YAY

Becky

prairiekats

OOPS - that's 1400sq ft NOT 11400 YIKES

sorry bout that

BobC

Smith and carlin EZ gas

For that size house look into the Smith G8 series with the carlin EZ gas burner, they work great together but be warned they sound like an oil burner with that gas gun. They are very efficient  and seem to have a good reputation.



Bob

prairiekats

Thanks Bob

I'll definitely look into that one.

prairiekats

so where do you get the G8-3 EZ gas?

I've looked online - all I get are other forums pretty much

Enreynolds

Depends where you are

I don't think I saw where you are hailing from prairiekats, but here is a link to Smiths Sales Rep locator.

http://www.smithboiler.com/html/salesreps.asp

Enreynolds

Depends where you are

I don't think I saw where you are hailing from prairiekats, but here is a link to Smiths Sales Rep locator.

http://www.smithboiler.com/html/salesreps.asp

nicholas bonham-carter

replacement boiler

make sure that the boiler you choose is sized to the radiation edr, and not to the old boiler, or the building heat loss!!!!

the manufacturer's piping diagram must be followed exactly, but a drop header will be easier for fitting the piping.--nbc

jumper

what happened to hydrotherm ?

Back in the eighties I bought some.

As I recall they were cheaper than HB Smith and somewhat lighter.

And I think there were steel boilers even cheaper and lighter.

Maine Vent

Another choice

Weil Mclean SGO's with a Riello Gas burner. So far mine has proven great. Along with massive venting and good pipe insulation. Gas for me here in Southern Maine is way cheaper than oil.

Steamhead

The current-model Hydrotherm residential wet-base steamer

appears to be the same as a Smith 8 series. These run very well with Carlin EZ-Gas burners. In fairness, I haven't tried any other gas burners in these boilers.

Steamhead

They also run well with the EZ-Gas

or, on the larger models, the 201Gas. David Sutton has installed a lot of Golds with Carlin gas burners, and we have one out there with a 201Gas.



Another good choice is Slant/Fin's Intrepid series. They were approved with the Carlin as well as the Midco EC series gas burners. HeatWise too, but unfortunately that company is out of business. They built a great burner.

Paul48

Parent

Don't Hydrotherm and Smith share the same parent company? There is, as always confusion over Smith Cast Iron and HB Smith. It is my understanding that they are 2 different companies.My series 8- 5 section weighs over 700 lbs(250-300lbs heavier than some competitors), and it makes installation more of a challenge.That extra weight translates into thermal mass, and it doesn't get any better. IMO

Steamhead

They do

Mestek is the holding company's name.



The old H.B. Smith company came under Mestek at some point, and is now just known as Smith. I bet Henry Bates Smith is spinning in his grave......

Teserakt

Great photos

Maine Vent-  Great photos!  And  nicely done plumbing, too.  Thanks for all of that.

Teserakt

Radiation EDR

nbc-  Are you referring to my reference to current input BTUs and steam square foot rating?  I assume you're leading me to measure the capacities of the radiators in the home rather than base my decisions on current boiler size.  I'm currently making calculations based on the info here:  http://www.colonialsupply.com/resources/radiator3.htm



Sound right?