One foot in each century - please advise

StudyingHard

I have a 1923 Trane Vapor system that is partially disabled and partially "upgraded".   See "Lost Art" page 257. see pics below.

High fuel bills $300/mo.  and horrible radiator balancing.  A few are blazing hot and a few are half-cold.



The system still pulls a vacuum when cooling:  minus-8 psi right after shut-down for the evening, then bleeds back to minus-1 psi or so by morning fire-up.  I set the thermostat to 50 deg overnight.



The Pressuretrol seems to work ok within the fluctuations of the vacuum pressure.  Still cycles 1-1/2 psi when thermostat calls.



Slant-Fin boiler installed 2002 or so by previous owner, ( 30% over-sized I think).



Original piping still in place:  Two main supply loops, and three dry return lines manifolding together near (and above) the boiler. There is no insulation on the pipes. 



Trane steam traps: see figure 36 on page 257 of Lost Art. Probably not working: how many 85-year-olds do you know that still work, grin?



Three Hoffman #76  Main Vent Vacuum Valves: one on each end of the two Supply loops and one on the end of the dry return manifold. They are still working.  They do vent on start-up and seal on cool-down., and look much younger  than 85 years, probably replacements.



No isolation of the dry returns: the three-line dry manifold drops into one of the main supply lines just before dropping down to the Hartford Loop.    The "special receiver" shown in figure 37 (Lost Art,  page 257) is not there.  A new 3" high concrete slab has been poured over the old equipment footprints. There is No F&T trap.



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The vertical pipe in the rear is a support, not part of the system



Virtually no water hammer problems.  I heard three bangs once, mostly real quiet, and the main vents are still surviving.



There is no header.  

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<span style="text-decoration:underline;">Please comment:</span>

1.  I probably need to separate the dry returns with an F&T trap.  "Lost Art" says so in numerous places.  At this time I envision some pressure in the returns which along with (probably) bad traps is slowing down steam buildup in the radiators.



2.  I will equip the Trane traps with B&J cages.  One return is very hot, one stays cold, and one is intermittently hot/cold.



3.  Should I try to retain the closed-system vacuum?  (is there any advantage to that, such as less oxidation). If so, I would not need to replace the Hoffman vent vacuum valves.



4.  Piping Insulation is in a UPS truck and will arrive tomorrow.  I presume that I will create no additional problems by installing this expeditiously, right?



5.  Future work for this summer:   add a header,  rotate the pigtail.



Thank you for your help.

Jamie Hall

85 years old

and still working?  C'mon, lad, I'm not quite there yet, but I aim to be working when I get there!  Either that, or planted...



And 85 year old traps can still work -- but it sure sounds as though yours aren't, or at least some of them aren't.  You will need to replace them, and you might as well replace the innards on the lot of them while you're at it.  Until you do, you will not get even heat, or anything even close to it.



Why do you need to separate the dry returns with traps?  I doubt very much that they were separated in the original system -- and it worked.  You do need to ensure that steam can't get into the dry returns, but that's what the traps on the radiators are for.  Some systems also had "crossover" traps at the ends of the steam mains; it doesn't sound as though yours does, although you might check (and replace the elements in those, too, if you have them), so unless there is some direct connection between the steam mains and the dry returns, without passing through a water seal and a wet return, you don't need to put additional traps on, unless I'm missing something here.  So don't.



There's no reason not to retain the closed vacuum system; it is slightly more efficient and it sounds like it is working.  However, if you were to add more vents, you might not be able to (the Hoffmans you have are about the only vapour/vacuum vents left).



I'm not surprised the special receiver isn't there any more (the vents have taken its place) -- if it really way a Trane, it contained mercury...  But you don't need it, if you keep the pressures low.  Ideally Tranes ran best under 6 ounces.  You can't do that with a pressuretrol.  If, after the traps are replaced, you can get it more even (by adjusting radiator valves if necessary) you can get away with the pressuretrol -- but it will be happier with a vaporstat.



The insulation will help, and there is no harm to putting it on right away.  Mains have to be insulated; returns are optional (in my humble opinion, anyway).

StudyingHard

Is there a Crossover problem here

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Are  the dry returns isolated from the steam main ?   The pipe in the foreground, topped by the copper vent is the end of one of the steam mains.   The dry returns come in from the back left, and are topped by the green vent (also a Hoffman 76 vac vent).  The green vent occasionally releases steam for short bursts. 



Does the horizontal run between the piping for the two vents constitute a water seal?  I don't think so unless the returning condensate stacks up above that level.



For reference:  the dry returns are 8" below the ceiling, the steam main is 16" below the ceiling, and the horizontal run between them (and back into the boiler)  is 23" below ceiling (35" above NWL)



I am wondering if an F&T trap is needed just below the green vent.   Essentially a "crossover" trap.   To prevent steam from entering the lower end of the returns.



P.S. "out alive at 85"  thank you for your comments

Jamie Hall

Oh clever!

back to you after supper -- but there is a neat way to make that work. 

Jamie Hall

Somebody was

yanking your chain.  As you notice, the piping where the lines drop is copper -- indicating a much more recent modification to the system.  Why they did it that way is anybody's guess -- I won't even try to figure it out.  Probably was done when the special receiver was taken out.



However.



The original lines almost certainly both dropped down to the bit of wet return before the Hartford loop independently.  That way they were sealed from each other by water.  So... the solution to the problem is to repipe them (Sawzall time!) so that they do that again.  Simply take that vertical line from the returns (below the green vent) and run it all the way down to the wet return and then hook it in to the return.  Cap the horizontal.



That way you won't need a trap and the returns will be isolated from that steam main by the water seal.  The returns don't need to be separated from each other.

StudyingHard

Yep, that worked.

Jamie, I added a ball valve between the end of the main and the dry returns, and dropped the dry return line straight down to the wet returns.  



I used a valve rather than just closing the line, so that I could flip it back and forth and measure the differences.   WOW, big diff in speed of heat-up of the rads, and in the max temp the rads got up to.



Grin; I was so happy that I never flipped the valve open again!

Brad White

Hats Off to Jaimie!

Love reading happy outcomes like this. The Simple Wow Factor at work. Good on you both, Jamie and Ray.

moneypitfeeder

my 2 cents

For what its worth, I tried a b&J trap replacement, and was less than thrilled with the results in 2 of my webster traps. As I tried to tighten the cap after fitting the cartridge in the spring went off center. Oh I got the cap tight, then when I opened it to see why it wasn't working the "seat on the b&j unit was worn on an angle and part of the housing for the "trap"portion was compressed. I ended up removing both new b&j cages and I bought tunstall cartridges that threaded into the old caps perfectly and kept the unit centered for install. I don't want to talk bad about anyone's product, I'm sure it was operator error, but that was my experience.