New Home owner - HIGH heating bills - boiler :( HELP

armychiq

I just purchased my home and received my first energy bill and for 19 days its $250 and my temp is set at 62 degrees!! I put it to 60 and I'm freezing! I'm use to 65 but 60 is real cold to me. My home was built in the 50's and it has the original boiler. I had a guy come and inspect it that installs them and said it looked like it was serviced and parts looked newer and said it could last 10 years or 10 minutes. Its a boiler. I'm thinking i need to upgrade but am new at this whole home owner thing and dont know where to start really. Inspecter said insulation was decent in attic and we bought those outlet foam things for extra insulation. I noticed none of the hot water lines were insulated. I need ideas and suggestions to lower my bill until i can get a new one. Another thing is I would like to go energy efficient and heard about Lochinvar's knight boiler. I dont know anything about this really. I just about broke the bank from remodeling my home before we moved in and got that bill and almost had a heart attack. I need to do something and possibly upgrade asap. Also, how do people buy furnaces these days? I mean most dont really have couple thousand sitting around and I'm not a big credit card person - so are there other financing options? HELP!!! :(

Jamie Hall

Well now...

a few quick questions, and then we can proceed...



First, is this hot water heat?  Or steam?  Being from the '50s, I would be hot water -- but one can't be sure.



Second, how big a house are we talking about?  Approximately -- doesn't have to be exact!



Third, where are you?  Presumably somewhere in North America (although we do have some European folks on here!) but where?



What fuel are you burning?  My guess would be oil, since you have a bill for 19 days -- but I could be wrong.  Have been before.



There are things that can be done to improve efficiency and comfort (but there are limits, too), so come back here and we'll proceed...

CC.Rob

start with reducing the heating requirement

Despite what the inspector said ("decent") I doubt he/she really looked at where the common air leaks are, and what insulation is present throughout the rest of the house.



The best bang for the buck is to first insulate and air seal as much as you can. Then start thinking about the heating plant. A decent DIY air sealing and insulating guide is here:



http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=diy.diy_index



You could also go to the next level and get a real energy audit using a 'blower door' test and thermal imaging. That will really nail down air leaks and insulation needs. In older homes like yours it's often possible to cut the heating requirement nearly in half.



There are often utility rebates for weatherization, and there's a 30% federal tax credit on the materials. Check out www.dsireusa.org for a list of incentives in your area.



Meanwhile, you've happened upon some of the best minds in hydronic heating. If there are simple steps to take now, you'll get them here.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)

your budget?

Infil/exfiltration typically accounts for 40% to 60% of the heating/cooling load. First best pass is to locate the air-leaks. An energy audit can be a huge help, but finding an outfit that truly does great audits can be a challenge. We've now seen, first-hand, a variety of energy auditors parade through customers' homes in order to comply with the new PA systems for assistance & they've ranged from the low of the auditor simply asking if our newly installed mechanicals are on to ones that dig deeper and utilize infrared thermal imaging along with blower-door tests. Also saw the end results of one pairing between an audit firm and an insulator that bordered on being criminal. So..... it's best to be careful and get referrals.



Now, having said that, the best possible resolution on the hydronics side will be to hire a great hydronics guru who does their own investigative work - heat loss calcs and an outside-the-boiler-room approach while analyzing your system. Comparing each room's heat loss (with energy improvements included) will dictate water delivery temperatures with the characteristic heating curve of the heat emitter in place (baseboard ?). Once those calcs are finalized, choosing a modcon boiler is one of the final steps. How the modcon is integrated into the system is dependent upon which modcon chosen and the individual piping the boiler. Not all systems are created (literally) equal and subtle changes in piping can have a dramatic long-term affect on comfort, economy, silence, and longevity.



If you can locate an RPA certified designer/installer near your area, that would be a good place to start.  

armychiq

RE: Well now...

It is hot water heat

sq ft is 1200 approx but i have a full basement as well and there is a vent on the one half of the basement ( its split )

I am in North America lol, I'm from Bay City, Michigan

I am using gas

Hope this helps

armychiq

RE: start with reducing the heating requirement

Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas. I'm going to do those things first that sounds like a great plan! Thank you for the link as well that is going to help a ton. I will start there and see if it makes a difference. I really appreciate it!

armychiq

RE: your budget?

Thanks for the suggestions and the advise - i wouldnt know any better so i could see myself getting caught up in a situation like you described. I'll have to check into an RPA certified designer/installer. Thanks again!

Gordy

Shot in the dark

 But would you have access to previous home owners gas bills..  Being that its your first partial gas  bill are you sure it was not an estimated.  Something may be array. That sounds high for 1200 sf, and low t stat setting even for an old boiler. Is it radiant, Radiators, or baseboard heat?  Another thought is the moving in process in the winter with the heat on doors open while moving things in the house.



Gordy

armychiq

RE: Shot in the dark

I didnt see previous home owners bills, it was an estate so they wouldnt have been accurate since its been vacant for so long. The bill did say actual i checked that detail. I thought it was pretty flippin high myself. And yes we've had doors open and changed out the outlets and you could feel cold air coming from them while the outlet covers were off. I bought the foam things to put behind them since i noticed all the cold air. Also had door gaps that I had covered and need to buy something to put there permenantly. Windows are newer - no drafts there...

Unknown

fireplace?

Do you have fireplace? Without heatbox or poorly sealed draftdoor will sucks the heat out of the place...

armychiq

RE: fireplace?

Yes i do, it is in the basement. They said it hadnt been used in years and inspector said damper was rusted shut. I didnt feel a draft from it. I havent used it yet either because I know i should have it serviced before I use it. Is there anything else i should know about having a fireplace that would effect my heat? We also thought about getting it fixed asap to start using it more vs our boiler to save on gas costs. I've never had a fireplace before - anything i should know?

Gordy

Fireplace

 Is it a masonary? I would assume so. Get it inspected before you use it.  Using it for heat probably wont do much for you except in that room. Unless they have an outside air intake it will suck the air out of the house, and through any air leaks in the walls, and ceiling.





Gordy

David Nadle

Gas bill

Maybe the previous owner kept his thermostat at 72. Check if your bill is based on an estimated reading or two actual readings. Next months bill might be a little easier..

Brian_74

Just checking…

How much of that $250 is for actual gas? My company keeps raising their customer charge. I think I pay about $40/mon. just to have gas service. If that's your first bill, could some of it be other charges, like setting up your account?



On the other hand, Rod recent posted that some of his friends found it cheaper to leave town in the winter.

mark schofield

smoke test ?

try burning a piece if incense in front of the fireplace to see how fast the smoke gets sucked up the chimney. I have a piece of sheet metal that covers my fireplace when not in use to stop the drafts.

armychiq

RE: Gas bill

it said actual on the bill but the house was on like 80 when i walked in the first day with my keys. i turned it waaaay down. so idk if that would be a part of it or not but wow...

armychiq

RE: smoke test ?

ok good idea i will try that. thanks!

armychiq

RE: Just checking…

well my bill includes electric too and that was only $5. so majority was gas. i called and asked them to describe it all to me and it was legit just ridiculous lol

Brian_74

money vs. usage

I would keep in mind that thinking that something is wrong because your bill is a lot of money is sort of like thinking that your car is broken because you're spending a lot at the pump. There might be something wrong, or it could just be that fuel is expensive. You need to pay attention to the amount of gas you're using rather than the cost. That also helps with the financial pain. :-)



That 19 days might have included some bitter cold days, and as you say, someone might have put the thermostat on broil. Why not record your usage for a few days and extrapolate to what next month's usage might be? You might also want to see if your gas company is willing to tell you what the previous owners used (when the house was occupied) or what the typical usage is for a house like yours in the area. My gas company does this online.

archibald tuttle

gas bill

Did you ask for previous gas bills when looking at the house? Normally the gas company will show 12 months of previous consumption on each bill, but if you are a new customer, they may not show you the consumption of the former owner.  I don't know about that, privacy concerns, etc. (not that I have any on this score but . . .).



Obviously if it were an empty house, or not ordinarily used you might not get a good reading but you can go back a ways.



Well, so hindsight is 20/20, foresight is on the side of controlling in/exfiltration and trying not to create moisture problems while doing it.



Good Luck,



Brian

jpf321

OT... 2 brians?

caught ya! .. just above there are 2 different (b/B)rians .. any chance you could each add Last initial or something? (I hope that you guys have different last inits.)

armychiq

RE: gas bill

Yea that gas co. wont share that with me they said to ask the owner. Well, in this instance it wouldnt have helped any because the house is an estate and its been vacant for some time and kids live far away and are fighting on my $ for the house anyways (bad situation) so its kind of a SUPRISE lol - not a very good one at that

armychiq

RE: Fireplace

I honestly dont know if its masonary or not, i would imagine so. I need to get it serviced and checked out. I called and found out just to walk in the door they want $130 off the bat which is crazy cuz the damper needs to be fixed and it needs to be cleaned since the previous owner said it hasnt been used in years. I'm going to check the attic for any air leaks - might have to check the chimney too.

armychiq

RE: money vs. usage

Getting previous bills cant really happen cuz it is an estate and has been vacant for months. according to my bill i used 21.7 mcf - whatever that means but thats how its measured. only $5 of it was electric. and yes there were some bitter cold days - below freezing but still, even if its set at 60 or 62 thats still pretty high to me because if i avg that out thats going to come out to about 400 for 30 days (give or take) thats alot for a 1200 sq ft house

Brian_74

We're taking over.

I noticed that myself a few posts ago. I do have a different "icon" and signature, but an something more obvious might be a good idea. Maybe I should change to "Vapor Man" or something. Just imagine what my superpower would be….

Brian_74

Measure your usage

I was thinking that you might want to measure your current usage and extrapolate to a monthly bill. From what you've told us, the past is not very accurate since the house was empty and then super-toasty, possibly on your dime. So I was thinking that before you set about fixing anything, you might want to get a more accurate idea of what you're up against. Maybe the whole problem comes from someone raising the thermostat before you moved in.



--Vapor man, whose ideas vanish like....no, that's no good.

armychiq

Sealing cracks

So i'm going to attempt going in my attic and sealing the cracks/gaps - what do you propose i seal it with to stop any drafts?

Also, what about the foam u put around your hot water pipes? will that help anything?

johnnyge

my bill was higher

I am also a home owner and my gas bill for this month was $416 I also almost have a heart attack and I don't know what else to do, my temp was set at 67 all day, now is a 64 and it does feel cold. I did everything that needs to be done, insulation, home audit, new windows,I am just giving up and probably change the system all together to something more efficiency. My heat is steam and the boiler is 7 years old..so for the new home owner i just want to say that I feel your pain.

ceksenior

My gas bill

Changes with the weather. I have ConEd in New York and the price per therm increases as the heating season progresses. In the summer it was aprrox .67 cents a therm. My last bill was .89 cents a therm.

Just as a comparison I have a approx 1400sqft house. I have uninsulated walls but all my windows and doors are new. The Steam boiler is fairly new with steam on the second floor and hot water loop on first floor. I have 3 zones set at 66 all day and night. The house by no means is super tight. My gas bill for December2009 for 34 days was $336.00. I used 188 therms.

Mark N

Gas Bill

Last month was a very cold month, and depending where you live it might have been extremely cold. I don't know about you but I also use gas to cook with, heat water with, and dry clothes with. So take that it to consideration. I don't know where you live or how large your home is. By my calculations your $416 gas bill comes out to about $13.42 a day using a 31 day billing cycle. I consider that a small price to pay to not freeze to death and also cook, dry clothes and heat water. I went on my utilities equal pay plan years ago so the bill is the same every month. During the warm months my gas bill is quite low so it spreads the pain around.



Mark

Jamie Hall

Just for reference...

The building I superintend is a museum, with a living apartment for the super (me).  It is a "cottage" in the Berkshires (near the Massachusetts/New York/Connecticut corner).  Oil heat, vapour system installed in about 1910, but 6 year old boiler.  No wall insulation, roof/attic insulation, new outside storm windows.  Three floors plus basement, 7,500 heated square feet.  Place is run at a constant 65 Fahrenheit.  Our oil bill here averages $700 per month (current pricing), but in cold and windy weather it is quite possible to go through about 25 gallons of oil (about $65) in a single day.

ceksenior

I forgot to add

I also use gas to cook, dry clothes and bathe. Average therm usage in summer is 30 per month. I guess subtracting that from 188 gives me 158 therms used just for heating for December. 

It was cold this december in NewYork as compared to last year. Last december I used 157 therms in december or 4.6 therms a day compared with 5.5 therms a day this year.

The price for my bill per therm is always changing month to month year to year. I must say though at a conversion of 1MCf =10therms ,21 MCF  or 210therms for a half a month sounds quite high to me.

Gordy

All Good Advice for you.

  I think before you jump to conclusions about your heating system, you need to take a good look at your usages. What appliances are using gas in the home, and how much.



 If you are using gas to cook dry clothes, and heat water you may have to wait until summer to get a good handle on that usage so when winter sets in you can subtract these therms off your total on the bill.



  Remember to average out a few months starting with an actual reading month, and ending with an actual reading month. Because actual readings can be skewed if the prior month was over or under estimated. The actual reading month will make up the difference.



  Do not use the fireplace until it has been inspected!! Get the one inspected your boiler vents into also. I'm willing to bet its masonry with clay flue tiles. You need to be sure its clean, and the flue tiles are not cracked or spalled, and no gaps in the mortar joining sections of flue tile.



 If the damper is rusted shut that means you probably do not have a chimney cap, and rain has been coming down the chimney not good for clay tile. Get a chimney cap. Plus they keep the critters out.



Gordy



 

armychiq

RE: All Good Advice for you.

I do use gas for everything, i have gas water heater, gas dryer, gas stove... i havent used the stove yet tho i just put it in the kitchen. i definitely need to get the fireplace checked out. today i'm going to check for air drafts in attic and infront of the fireplace. What do you propose i close the gaps with? cylicone? I gotta make a run to home depot and i'm thinking i'm going to need something

armychiq

RE: Measure your usage

Ok i will be sure to watch my usage and compare months. When I got my keys the heat was high and it was super toasty in here. Maybe it was on my bill - i dont know but if that was the case then i can understand y it was so high.

armychiq

RE: my bill was higher

ouch man i feel your pain it so sucks. i'm going to do what i can to weatherize my home today. you might have to get a better efficient system... good luck

Jamie Hall

Small gaps

can be filled with caulk -- I prefer acrylic latex to silicone, as it can be painted and is a lot easier to clean up after.  Larger gaps can be filled with one of the expand in place foams.  They aren't cheap, but for anything much over a quarter to half inch they work much much better.  I've used a lot of both... !

bob eck

high heating bills

I live near Allentown Pennsylvania in a old 75+ years old 1/2 double house.

Little insulation in walls attic OK new replacement windows.

I have hot water heat with radiators.

This past summer I went from oil boiler and installed a Nat gas Triangle Tube Prestige Excellence gas wall hung boiler for heating and domestic hot water needs.

I never had gas always heated with oil so when I got my bill this week it was $163.11 from 12-09-09 to 01-11-10.

Since I never heated with gas I went over to my neighbors house (other 1/2 of the double) and asked them what their gas bill was. They use gas just for heat they have a electric hot water heater. Their gas bill for the same days was $245.34.

With my 95% high efficiency TT PE110 boiler my gas bill was over 33% lower that their gas bill with their 30 plus year old gas boiler and I got heating and domestic hot water and their gas bill was just for heating.



 

armychiq

RE: high heating bills

wow thats incredible! thats a pretty big savings if you ask me!! how much did something like that cost you to install? Since i'm a first time home buyer i qualify for the tax credit - i think thats where my monies will be going. Thanks for sharing - i appreciate it

Mark N

More to it

There is probably more to it than than just differences in efficiency. Are both boilers the same size? What was your t-stat set at? What was their t-stat set at. Do they have attic insulation and replacement windows?



Mark

armychiq

Went in attic today

Went in attic today and insulation looked good - had to search for the boards to know where to step. I sealed a couple gaps but there was nothing drastic that needed to be sealed that i could see. There was no insulation over the stairs and nothing over part of the kitchen so i bought some more to put over that. Question though - the part that meets the 'floor' of the attic (the end of the roof) i dont really know how to describe it other than it comes to a corner of a triangle --- does that need insulation there too? looked like it was good except that part- or is that suppose to be not as highly insulated as the rest?