inlet orifices instead of traps!?!

Brian_74

I've been preparing to replace all the traps in my house because of their age (80 years; a few of the youngins might be 20+ years), because of hammering, and because of excessive gas usage. None failed closed. If I were deaf and natural gas were cheap, I wouldn't be messing with it.



Then I read about inlet orifices in one of JPF321's recent posts (<a href="http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/129345/Innovative-or-stupid-You-tell-me">http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/129345/Innovative-or-stupid-You-tell-me</a>). I saw that it's been mentioned a few times before but I didn't get a sense of the downsides. The Gifford article that JPF321 and Rod cite makes it sound easy to do. Should I even consider installing inlet orifices instead of redoing the traps?

Steve_210

traps

personally i would replace the trap elements (only the elements)

i have used the orifices on a model K vapor system where a lot of the original valves had been replaced.  we had to spend alot of time adjusting the original valves to match the new orifaces. tunstall will match or make any element ever made. just my 2 cents

Unknown

Traps

Hi Brian-   Aren't your radiator valves staged?   If so, that would seem to me that you have "adjustable" inlet orifices. Traps (when they are working) are great!

- Rod

Jamie Hall

They both work

or we wouldn't still be banging our heads on them.  It is rare to have to replace the whole trap -- unless yours are very strange beasts indeed, it is possible to simply replace the innards, which shouldn't be all that difficult.  And that would be my preference.



That said, both systems have their points -- and disadvantages.  Trapped systems don't require a great deal of fiddling to get right and reasonably balanced; in most cases, adequate venting will ensure that all radiators get steam.  On the other hand, traps do, occasionaly, fail (although I have yet to have a failed trap in my home system, getting on for 90 years now).  Orifices, on the other hand, have no moving parts to go wrong -- but each radiator must have its orifice adjusted to it, individually, to ensure that the system is balanced.  This can be a really fiddly job.  Even one radiator with an oversized orifice will act on the system just the same way as one failed trap will.  Also, orifices are somewhat more sensitive to pressure than traps.

gerry gill

yes you can,

and in esence what you would then have recreated is a mouat or broomel style inlet arrangement..for what its worth i've done it many times..i do prefer to fix the traps if possible, but sometimes its just advantageous to orifice..but Jamie is correct on all counts..you may spend much time tweaking it..but the bottom line is yes it does work..

Brian_74

Just thinking about the bottom line

Thanks, everyone, it sounds like traps are still the way to go. When I read the article about orifices, I thought that they are a lot cheaper than 10 trap elements.



Rod, I'm not sure I know what you mean by "staged" radiator valves. I do have the kind that you can adjust rather than just be on or off. Does that make them staged?



Jamie, you've made me question whether I need new traps at all (aside from one that I can see is broken). I thought they had a useful life of a few years only? Mine are 80.



Thanks, too, Mr. Gill and Sprinter. I don't think I know enough about steam to be able to fiddle with the orifices. Maybe in another 5 years or so.

Unknown

Staged Valves

Hi Brian- Sorry, I used the wrong word. In the steam heating industry they are called "quintuple" valves. (Page 254 of "The Lost Art...") and I thought that maybe the Ideal system might have this type.



TRVs- I use TRVs on my one pipe to shut down sections of the house in winter. While you can install TRVS on a two pipe but I really don't see the need as you can "throttle" the inlet valve on a 2 pipe so that just a minimum of steam enters the radiator. On  a 1 pipe system the inlet valve has to be fully open or fully closed so you need a TRV to keep the shut down room from freezing and bursting the water pipes in the wall. In your case I'd think buying a cheap thermometer for every room would be a lot cheaper than a TRV for each room.

Orifices- Here's some more info on orifices.

- Rod

http://www.tunstall-inc.com/inletorifice.html

Jamie Hall

Unless the trap body

is flat out busted for some reason (maybe it froze sometime?) or you should be so unfortunate as to have one of the few trap designs for which replacement elements aren't made, you don't need to replace the whole trap.  The cover unscrews, the element lifts out, you drop in a new element and off you go.  As to useful life, that is variable.  It is my opinion, really founded only on my own personal experience and hearsay, that a trap element can have a useful life approaching a century.  However, and this is a big big however: it must never have been abused.  That is, never subjected to water hammer.  Never subjected to excess pressure.  Never subjected to steam back feeding from the return.  So it depends on how they have been treated.



So the question is: do they work?  If it ain't broke, don't fix it...

Brian_74

Oh, quintuple valves!

Then I would've said, hey Rod, what are quintuple valves? The stuff I don't know about steam could fill a book. Anyway, I don't think I have Broomell-type valves. Thanks for looking it up in LAOSH. That system looks ahead of its time.



Unfortunately, I think that I have a super-simple vapor system. In fact, since I don't have any of the neat gizmos of the other vapor system's in LAOSH, I assumed that I had a normal two-pipe system. On the upside, I'm glad I don't one of those cast iron hams (LAOSH p. 236). I'm with Dan's friend who said they give him the willies.

Brian_74

I think they've been hammered

Mr. Gill shared his Ideal steam trap opening techniques with me, and I'm 5/5 so far. I've got two more Ideal traps to open, and I have a Trane B-1 that's definitely broken, and B-1s that I can't open. Since that one B-1 is broken, I think that means the other traps have been exposed to hammer, which there definitely is. I'm not sure about the other forms of abuse.



Anyway, I don't know if they work. They're definitely not stuck closed.

jpf321

dan said ...

in TLAOSH and at steam school .. a thermostatic radiator trap will open and close 1-million times in 5years ... and that's usually about the life you should comfortably expect .. i know there are probably much older traps out there .. i'm just saying what DH said.