New Steam Boiler - Copper Piping

PJB177

I recently had a boiler installed, and the installer used copper piping.  There are other issues with the install as well, based on comparing the install to the installation manual, but for now I would like to focus on the use of copper.  The boiler is a Peerless ECT-04.

The contractor has to come back to fix other parts of the piping, but contends that there is nothing that says the boiler cannot be piped in copper.  I have tried pointing to the area that speaks to using swing joints to show that threaded pipe needs to be used.  However, he came back and said he used a male adapter coming out of the boiler on the copper riser, and that satisfies the requirement for a swing joint.  I have looked throughout the manual and the steam survey on the Peerless site, but I am unable to find something to show that it needs to be piped in black pipe.

I talked to the local Peerless rep and he agreed it needed to be done in black pipe.  However, the contractor talked to him a week later, and when I spoke with him again, he said he can't find anything that says it needs to be done in black pipe.  In order to have the contractor come back and fix the system in black pipe, or to be able to recover the money if I have another company do the work, I have to show that it needs to be done.  Does anyone have any ideas on how I can show it needs to be piped in black pipe? 

Jamie Hall

Oh dear

I wish people wouldn't pipe boilers in copper, but they will do it.  The problem is that if you don't have, in writing in your contract, that the boiler will be piped as Peerless specifies, you may have no recourse, as black iron is not required by code -- unfortunately.



The problem is expansion.  If your boiler has two or more risers to the header, male adapter or no (a male adapter does not a swing joint make), the copper will pry the boiler apart eventually.  This you do not want.  If there is only a single riser (assuming that part is according the Peerless manual!), then that, at least is not a problem -- but unless the copper geometry is just right, and the craftsmanship is superb, the expansion will twist the copper joints and eventually they will break and leak.



Good luck...

PJB177

Code Vs Peerless Specification

I am trying to prove that Peerless specification does require black pipe instead of copper, and so anything that you could help me with to show that, whether or not it is required by building code, would be very helpful. 

I admit that I am fairly novice when it comes to plumbing, and therefore do not really understand exactly what is needed to create a swing joint.  In the Peerless installation manual, it says - 4. Use swing joints to attach header to avoid damage to the boiler due to thermal expansion and contraction of steam header pipe. 5. Pipe the steam header a minimum of 24" above the normal water line using swing joints to attach the risers into the steam header.



What exactly would using swing joints to attach the header to the boiler, and the risers into the header entail?  Also, is there any other language in the Peerless installation manual or steam installation survey that would show that copper pipe is not correct for the boiler?

1. 4. Use swing joints to attach header to avoid damage to the boiler due to thermal expansion and contraction of steam header pipe.
2. 5. Pipe the steam header a minimum of 24" above the normal water line using swing joints to attach the risers into the steam header.

What exactly would using swing joints to attach the header to the boiler, and the risers into the header entail?  Also, is there any other language in the Peerless installation manual or steam installation survey that would show that copper pipe is not correct for the boiler?

Jamie Hall

Peerless

First off, when they say 24", they mean it.  You need that much height to get reasonably dry steam; nowadays the near boiler piping is really part of the boiler.



The best way to envision a swing joint in this type of application is to envision a vertical pipe, then a 90 degree elbow to a horizontal pipe (which can be short), then a 90 degree elbow back to vertical.  If this is done in black iron -- threaded -- the joints can rotate (very slightly) so the second vertical pipe can move horizontally with relation to the first vertical pipe.  That movement allows the header above (or, preferably, dropped below) to expand at a different rate from the boiler.  You cannot make a swing joint with copper, as the joints are not free to rotate.  Period.

gerry gill

ive always found this link helpful...

[url=http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/corrosion/galvanic.htm]http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/corrosion/galvanic.htm  the only copper steam systems that are copper by design as far as i know are the Iron Fireman Select Temp mini tube steam systems as the ferrous rust would clog the mini tubes..so there is no choice on those ones..but still the boiler does take a beating from so much copper.

Unknown

Swing Joints

OK- It would seem that the rep has sold you out which makes sense as he will only lose possibly 1 future boiler sale with you where as he would possibly lose many more going again the contractor. The rep is probably just a guy that sells boilers.



I think I'd email Peerless and ask for a definition of what the term "swing joint" means in Item 4 & 5 as written on page (?) of their (boiler model) manual. Dated: (day month year)

Part # (************)  and see what sort of reply you get.



I would ask the contractor: "So the threaded adapter going into the boiler is what makes a swing joint?" "Okay, then according to the installation manual there  have to be threaded adapters on the connection between the risers and header." (You don't actually want them that way, it just shows his argument is nuts!)



A "swing joint" is a series of threaded elbows which allows movement. (like a universal on the drive shaft of a car)  Take a look at these photos of drop headers http://www.heatinghelp.com/files/articles/1348/127.pdf

Note that if the boiler or pipes expand, the thread at the elbows allows slight movement. Copper fittings are sweated and therefore rigid and NO movement!

- Rod

PJB177

Swing Joints

Thank you for the advice.  I have had a hard time convincing Peerless to email anything, no big surprise that the Peerless Rep and Peerless company would support the contractor for the reasons you suggested, I have already purchased the boiler so they already got my sale - the contractor represents a lot more future boiler sales than I do. 



So just to confirm, a swing joint does not have to be a dropped header, correct?  For instance in the installation guide, it shows the vertical riser coming out of the boiler, a 90, then a pipe going horizontally across the front side boiler, and then a 90 connecting the riser into the header, which travels horizontally from the front of the boiler to the back.  As long as these connections are threaded, this would represent a swing joint, but if any of these connections were sweated copper connections, it would not be a swing joint?



Anticipating what the contractor is going to say - he technically could use copper, using male adapters on the vertical risers, 90's, horizontal pipes, and header - and this would be a swing joint as well?  Not sure why the contractor would want to replace the existing copper piping in this fashion instead of just fixing it in black pipe, but I feel like at this point he is doing anything he can to not use black pipe out of pure stubbornness.

jpf321

perhaps...

perhaps you want to reach out to Gerry Hogan, his director of training for contractors and wholesalers and such .. his interest is to make sure that his people are well trained, he has less interest in the money train ... if you can call PB Heat and ask for him and get past "the guard" so to speak, then i'd try that route.



"Hogan will lead new product training, develop and conduct all company training seminars and develop training for Peerless’ network of manufacturer’s representatives, distributors and contractors"



perhaps he has some readily available training material he can offer you regarding the use of copper on steam boilers .. you can call now and "dial by name" and go right to his mailbox. 610-845-6130 .. what do you have to lose?

jim_72

Contact

Next time he comes over call this number Peerless engineering  619 369 3278 ask for Gary. Tell him your predicament then hand the phone to your "Installer". Good Luck Jim

PJB177

Very Disappointed With Peerless

I took your advice and called Gerry Hogan today to talk about the boiler piping.  He agreed that it was his boiler, he would want it done in black pipe, but said he could not provide me with an email to say that it needed to be in black pipe.



Then I asked if he could provide me with an email that said that the connection from the boiler to the riser, and the riser into the header needed to be threaded connections to create a swing joint.  He agreed that the connections needed to be threaded to create the swing joints but would not provide me an email to say so.  When I asked why, he said that he could not put something in writing to help me to get the contractor to pipe the system that way.  When I brought up that the peerless rep had sent the contractor an email, he then tried to argue that peerless does not require swing joints.  Then I pointed him to the page in the installation manual that states:

1. 4. Use swing joints to attach header to avoid damage
   
   to the boiler due to thermal expansion and
   
   contraction of steam header pipe.
   
   5. Pipe the steam header a minimum of 24" above the
   
   normal water line using swing joints to attach the
   
   risers into the steam header.

He then agreed that the manual is requiring swing joints which require threaded connections, but said he would not send me an email stating that.  He was more concerned with me sending him a copy of the email the other rep sent to the contractor than helping me out.  When I asked if sending him the email would get him to help me, he said no.  I told him I wasn't going to send him an email just to throw the rep under the bus.



Never have I been so disappointed with a company, maybe even more so than the contractor who did the install.  I am trying to install their product correctly, to maximize performance and minimize the risk of issues down the road and the company seems more concerned with protecting the contractor who installed the product incorrectly.  I would never again purchase a Peerless product, nor would I recommend Peerless to anyone else - unless of course you are the heating contractor, because then they will back you even when you have blatantly installed their product incorrectly.



So Peerless has hung me out to dry, and won't even back the printed instructions they put in their own installation manual.  What a joke.

jpf321

well...

well i'm glad you took my advice and gave Gerry a call .. please note that I only found him through an internet search and I don't know him from Adam ..



i'm sorry to hear that Peerless has been so unwilling, unable and uncooperative .. they are permanently scratched of my list for a new boiler option .. so maybe they got your business, but mine is still up for grabs and they just lost it.



i hope someone from peerless is reading this and it spurs them to assist you by any means necessary. if that turns out to be the case, please let me know and I will take that into consideration when it's time to plunk down the dollars.

Unknown

Peerless?

I have a Peerless Boiler and have always thought of them as a fairly decent company. The fact that they backed away and won't even support their own instructions in their installation manual I find rather disappointing.  I will definitely factor this into any recommendations I give in the future.  

jpf321

warranty?

try to find out directly from peerless tech support or somone if they will honor the warranty on a boiler piped in copper. i was told by my local burner guy that when things hit the fan, the first thing the manufacturer will determine is if it was piped to spec .. my guess is that they might not honor a copper pipe warranty, but you'll have to inquire... that should be something they can provide you as proof. 

Robbie

What I'd do

But I am nuts,....

I'd pay the contractor for his work, then cancel any further contract with him. tear out all the copper, and put in the proper materials. Sell the copper for scrap value(should be a nice chunk of coinage), which may reimburse for the black pipe.



Just do the work yourself- It is not that hard.



Then be sure to put that contractors name on that "whatsis' list" where you tell about service received from a business... And be sure you state your case that the man just does not care to listen!



Scott

BRIANJ

Peerless and Contractor

If you are in New Jersey I would file a complaint with the Attorney Generals Office. These contractors are licensed and controlled by the state that you live in and a formal complaint should be lodged. You may get some relief but there are no guarantees and it won't cost you anything to file the complaint. Don't let him get away with a bad installation which may be subject to breaks in the joints. You don't want steam shooting out ito your basement in the middle of winter.

There are a lot of great plumbers out there who would do the job properly as seen on this site, but there are also a lot of hacks who charge plenty and then take shortcuts. Your arguments are supported by the installation manual and if presented before a licensing board they will understand what a swing joint is.

You may not get him to fix it but hopefully he'll think twice about doing it again.

Good Luck. BrianJ

PJB177

Interesting Voicemail

I decided to call Gerry Hogan again, and left him a voicemail asking if there was anyone else I could talk to at Peerless that would be able to help me.  Well I think Gerry certainly came through, because this morning, I had a voicemail on my phone from Peter Morgan, who I believe is the president of Peerless Boilers.  I was excited that someone had gotten back to me, and that my issues would be resolved.

When I called Peter, he said that he talked to Gerry, and he wanted to know what it was that I was looking for.  I explained that the peerless rep had talked to my contractor, and something from that discussion made the contractor think that he could use a smaller header size, and that there was confusion over piping the boiler using swing joints.  I explained that I was just looking for someone to send me a quick email stating the correct header size would be 2 1/2" and that the connections needed to be done with swing joints. 

Peter told me that there was no one at Peerless that was going to send me that email.  He also said that he had read my posts on this forum, and accused me of making libelous remarks about Gerry.  He said that I was trying to pawn off the blame on everyone else, and said I should have had all this in my contract.  He also made reference to the post from Scott, saying that I should just rip out all the copper and repipe it myself.  I tried explaining that the Peerless rep had sent an email to the contractor saying it was ok to pipe the boiler in copper, and also that something from discussions the contractor had with the peerless rep made him think that using a 2" header was ok.  All I wanted was someone at peerless to send an email to me to confirm that the boiler needed a 2 1/2" header and swing joints, so that I could clear up the confusion with the contractor.  I told him I wasn't asking for anything in regards to use of copper.  He reiterated that no one from peerless was going to do that, and when I interjected to try to reason with him more, he hung up the phone.

I have to agree about the contract.  I wish that I had done more research up front, to know exactly how the system should be installed and who should be installing it, and put everything in writing.  Maybe I am way off base here, but I don't think my request of Peerless is a ridiculous one - send me an email confirming what is written in your installation manual.  I understand why a boiler company wouldn't want to get involved in a contractor/homeowner dispute.  If there was no email from the rep to the contractor, and no discussions between the rep and the contractor that would lead him to believe he can pipe the system with a 2" header instead of 2 1/2" then I believe this might have already been resolved.  The problem is that there is an email from the rep to the contractor, but no one is willing to send an email to the customer.

As far as the libelous remarks, I certainly didn't post anything on this forum with the intention of trashing the contractor, the rep, or Gerry.  I posted on here for advice, because I didn't know what else to do to remedy my situation. You'll notice that in all my posts, I am not naming the contractor, or naming the rep.  In all my discussions I have had with various people talked to about the system, including the contractor who I had come out to quote a price to fix the system, I have withheld the name of the contractor even when they asked.  If my questions didn't require specific knowledge of the company and their boilers, I probably wouldn't have ever mentioned that it was a Peerless boiler that was installed. 

As far as repiping the system myself, I appreciate the advice, but the way I look at it is:  I am not a plumber or steam specialist in any way.  I hired a licensed plumber and heating contractor to do the job, and it still didn't end up piped correctly, so I think this is a job I should leave to the professionals.  I have a quote to fix the system from another contractor that I am confident can do the job right.  I was still holding out hope that there was some way that I could come to an agreement with the original contractor, to have him install the system as shown in the installation manual.  Since peerless won't send me an email to confirm what is written in their own installation manual, I'm not sure if I can make that happen.  If all else fails, I will go forward with having the system fixed by the new contractor, and go back to the original contractor to recoup the costs, and I think I have a very good case to do so.

Thats my rant on that.  For those of you who were wondering if anyone at Peerless reads what is on this forum, it appears that they do.  I am of course open to any other advice on this, and I am very glad for all the help that I have received here and that I found these forums, even if it was a couple weeks too late.

RyanC

Wow

I am just a home owner with a steam system and I certainly do not have the knowledge to comment on if this installation is correct or not, but the whole situation is just wrong.  Now granted we are really only hearing one side and my perspective is just that of a home owner but Peerless seems to be making a huge mistake.  IF there is nothing wrong with the way the system was installed and piped why isn't that just being put in writing and sent out from Peerless?  That seems like it would have put an end to this rather quickly.  IF the system and piping were not done correctly then I would think Peerless would have stepped in in that case too.  If the contractor is doing all of his installations like this and it is wrong and will fail prematurely then that is only going to paint Peeless in a bad light to anyone who has one of these failed systems.  I think most home owners would not really realize it was an installation issue and not a boiler issue.  Again, just my thoughts as a home owner.

Also, lurking on a forum and then yelling at someone about their posts over the phone is just not cool. 

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Industry Wide?

I haven't read through all the posts and maybe this has been discussed, but what about the other manufacturers?  Burnham? Weil-McLain? Slant-Fin? Crown? Do they have anything in their instructions saying to use iron pipe and not copper?



Of course, it might be a moot point since a Peerless is installed, but I'd like to hear how other manufacturers handle it, if at all.  And if not, why not?

malp

Bryant Legacy Line BS Boiler's installation manual

The 2002 version of the manual forbids copper:

Near boiler piping shall be threaded iron or steel pipe only. Copper shall not be used other than for wet returns.



The 2005 manual allows copper (or at least does not explicitly forbid it).

PJB177

Piping Requirements

I did some research on this.  I found the installation manual for the Burnham Megasteam -

"Before using copper for steam piping, consider the following characteristics of copper piping:

"Before using copper for steam piping, consider the following characteristics of copper piping:

1) high coefficient of thermal expansion can induce mechanical stresses and cause expansion/contraction noises if not accounted for in the piping system design and installation,

2) high heat transfer rate (heat loss) of uninsulated copper piping must be included in the normal piping and pickup factors used to size the boiler,contraction noises if not accounted for in the piping system design and installation,

2) high heat transfer rate (heat loss) of uninsulated copper piping must be included in the normal piping and pickup factors used to size the boiler,

3) soldering or brazing pastes and fluxes that end up in the system can cause poor heat transfer, surging, an unsteady water line and wet steam if not thoroughly removed during the boil out procedure and,

4) galvanic corrosion of the adjoining metal may occur due to dissimilar metals in certain water chemistries if dielectric unions are not used."

I couldn't find anything in the weil mclain SGO manual directly stating copper couldn't be used, but there is a focus on using swing joints.  Interestingly, the Peerless Series 63/64 installation manual states "Use Threaded Fittings for Manifold Piping."  I don't think this means you can't use copper either, but I do think that this would mean you have to add threaded adapters to all the copper pipes.  Again, I'm not a plumber or heating expert, but it sounds like a lot of work to add all those copper male adapters as opposed to just using threaded pipe and fittings to begin with.surging, an unsteady water line and wet steam if not thoroughly removed during the boil out procedure and,

4) galvanic corrosion of the adjoining metal may occur due to dissimilar metals in certain water chemistries if dielectric unions are not used."

I couldn't find anything in the weil mclain SGO manual directly stating copper couldn't be used, but there is a focus on using swing joints.  Interestingly, the Peerless Series 63/64 installation manual states "Use Threaded Fittings for Manifold Piping."  I don't think this means you can't use copper either, but I do think that this would mean you have to add threaded adapters to all the copper pipes.  Again, I'm not a plumber or heating expert, but it sounds like a lot of work to add all those copper male adapters as opposed to just using threaded pipe and fittings to begin with.

jpf321

they could have....

having read the posts and seeing your predicament, they could have gone a long way towards good PR (which they spend 10's of thousands a year on I'm sure) to have stepped in an publicly or privately cordially managed the situation to the best outcome of the END customer .. the problem is that you aren't REALLY their customer .. their customer is the supply houses and the contractors or Fuel Oil companies. They spend their ad dollars and efforts to assist in having the installers out their telling the general public "This is the best and most correct boiler for you" and to have the installers believe it. Have you ever seen an ad for Peerless? I bet not, but I bet your installer and supply houses have seen hundreds. You *may* tell your friends and neighbors about your fantastic brand spanking new peerless, and it may sway a homeowner to make choice with their boiler replacement project...but unfortunately, those situations are few and far between...it's really the installers of the world that Peerless needs to put their boilers in the homes not homeowners.



Do you have any of those investigative "On your side", "Shame on you", etc news segments in your local news? They are usually looking for stories such as this and they have much broader impact and reach than you...and this is something that Peerless could not ignore. The newspeople may say "The company refused to comment" .. but that is usually enough to make people reconsider the next time an installer comes to their house to try to place a peerless unit. And then we have short-circuited the cycle...the installer is 100% on board with PB, however the homeowners refuse to have them installed...then PB loses market share, and takes notice, etc.



And they could have averted it all by taking a stand publicly or privately one way or another. One could argue that they have already made themselves perfectly clear in their install manuals (which we may find they now revise). But to not have been apologetic or postively responsive other than hanging up the phone (because let's face it, that's all that any of us will remember about your above story)..is pompous and cavalier of them.



Companies now have devoted budgets to watch blog posts, and manage their PR based on blog posts and some even have inside bloggers (or their PR company's bloggers) to respond with the proper "manufacturer" line of reason...it's 2010, people need heat and they need to save money and they need answers and they have the internet...google will bring them HERE to HH.com in the top 10 results almost everytime.



When you compare this thread with boilerpro's glowing post about slantfin .. [url=http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/128612/This-years-Steamers#p1181325]http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/128612/This-years-Steamers#p1181325 which manufacturer do you think will be more have a better name amongst inquiring minds?



eh since 2006 it's all one big conspiracy anyway .. led at the time by Honeywell...see .. http://contractormag.com/hydronics/cm_newsarticle_975/

DanHolohan

I've known Peter and Gerry for 25 years.

They are good and honorable men.



There are two sides to every story. I just spoke with Peter and heard his side. He told you that your problem lies with the contractor who did the installation and not with the manufacturer of the boiler. I believe he was reasonable in telling you this, as he explained to me, because I've known him for a very long time.



He gave you a good analogy about bringing a car to a local mechanic, who then does a lousy job on the repairs. When the car doesn't work as promised, this is not the car maker's fault. Nor is it the car maker's responsibility to oversee every mechanic in the country who works on that model.



I think that's a good analogy. Your problem lies with the installing contractor and should be played out here as a fight between you and the manufacturer.

 

jpf321

as i understand it...

the fight wasn't with the PB folks, he was only looking for manufacturer to back up the "proper" way to install the unit so that he could, with good ammo, fight with the contractor. it turned into a problem of the manufacturer not willing to provide that ammo and thus making it look like they were unwilling to assist the homeowner and not back their product.



how is a normal everyday homeowner ever supposed to win a fight with a contractor if they original company does not provide supporting evidence that the homeowner is correct?



and the presumed unwillingness of the company to simply back their product, since they are the ones with the engineers and the training material and the approvals (when installed properly), is what's being heard here as a flag regarding PB Heat. the OP never intended to point the finger at PB, and has only relayed information about his dealing with PB. he was only looking for evidence so that it's not simply the contractors word against the forum.



i'll shut up now and this will be my last post on the issue. jpf

PJB177

Analogy

The analogy that Peter used was if I bring my car to the local mechanic, he does a repair incorrectly, I can't go to the auto manufacturer to get it fixed.  I agreed with him that this is probably true, but I told him that I am not asking for Peerless to fix my piping or try to mediate the situation with the contractor.  I am just asking for peerless to send me an email confirming what is in their installation manual.  I am of the belief that if the local mechanic didn't follow the cars service manual, and did a bad repair, one that would potentially cause my car to perform poorly and break-down prematurely, and I went to the auto-manufacturers representatives (local dealer, service line, etc) and explained the situation, that someone would be willing to email me what is required for that repair. 



It seems to me that they are going through a lot more aggrevation and effort in refusing to send the email.  I am not asking them to treat me any differently than they have treated the contractor that the rep was willing to email.  Something that the rep said and/or emailed to the contractor has made him think that it is ok to go against what is written in the manufacturers installation manual.  From the contractor's email to me:  "[Rep] has already given us the approval to do the three tasks that I explained in the previous email."  From that previous email: "We will do the following at your earliest convenience:  1)  Add another 2" copper feed and attach both feeds into a 2" header"  So it appears that because of something the rep said, whether the contractor misunderstood that or not, the contractor feels that it is ok to undersize the header pipe (installation manual calls for 2".)  He also does not appear to think that threaded connections will be needed (the installation manual calls for swing joints.)





Because of that confusion, I am simply asking that Peerless send me an email to help clarify the situation, confirming what they have already written out in their installation manual.  I do not think I am asking for Peerless to take on any additional liability, undertake a huge task, or force the contractor to do anything - I am asking them to send an email to confirm something that they have already included in writing with the boiler.

jpf321

off wall ..

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/21/Systems-FAQ/44/Steam-systems-Copper-piping

DanHolohan

Honestly,

If something is written in a manufacturer's installation-and-operating manual, I don't see why you need to have to have an e-mail from them confirming what they have already published as being true and the proper way of doing things. The manual stands on its own. Why confirm again what they've already confirmed?



Beyond that, I think that when you hire a professional to do a steam job, he shouldn't have to go to the manufacturer of the boiler to find out what sort or size pipe he should use to install the boiler. This is something a professional should know without having to ask someone else. That's part of what makes him a professional.



Maybe I'm missing something.

Unknown

Questions are bad?

Dan- With all the respect I can muster, I must respectfully disagree with you. You made the statement that "The manual stands on its own." If it actually did, I very much doubt that this discussion would exist as it would be abundantly clear to all parties as what is expected in the installation.  If the manuals really showed "the proper way of doing things" I would suggest that "The Lost Art..." would only need to have half the pages it has now. 



I consider the question about the "swing joints" quite reasonable and would be interested in exactly what the steam manufacturers actually consider "swing joints" myself as from what I see in the manual (in the piping drawing) they show straight pipe going into a tee on the header  and then say use "swing joints" to attach the header.  From my experience a proper swing joint has to have a series of elbows to allow movement. The dual elbows on each riser on a drop header could be considered a "swing joint" however I fail to see how the connection of the riser to the header in the piping drawing constitutes a "swing joint". From the situation discussed on this thread apparently I'm not the only one confused on this issue so why then wouldn't it be reasonable to ask for a clarification from the manufacturer who wrote the manual?



As for professionalism, I couldn't agree with you more, though it would seem from what we constantly see brought to your site, that universal professionalism in the steam segment of the heating world is sourly lacking. This situation would seem to show that clear detailed installation manuals are generally lacking.  If a manufacturer isn't prepared to publish such a manual then I think it is quite reasonable that they should be prepared to answer questions to clear up ambiguities.   If they aren't prepared to do that, then perhaps they should consider printing the words "Caveat emptor" on the cover page of their manual.

David Nadle

Pictures...and unsolicited advice.

Can you post some pictures of the near boiler piping? It would help.



I know you don't want to hear this, and maybe I shouldn't say it, but I think you should move on. If the installer used elbows to put the header in a different plane from the risers and used threaded adapters then thermal expansion cannot put tension on the boiler sections. Even though we don't like it boilers get piped in copper every day. And I'd bet most of the installers who use copper are good people who care about their work. They just haven't seen the light yet because they've been using copper a long time without incident. So maybe instead of going ballistic and dragging in Peerless you should see if there's anything in writing about how long the work is guaranteed for, and if not, try to get some guarantee from the installer. Send the pictures of the install to your friends at Peerless and ask them if they'll confirm the install meets the requirements of their warranty. Then, with your boiler warranty assured and your contractor standing by his soldering, you can relax.

DanHolohan

Thanks, Rod.

I strongly believe that any professional who takes on a steam-heating job should know what he's doing in every regard when it comes to the near-boiler piping. Surely, there's enough information on this site and other sites for a pro to educate himself before taking on a job. To me, that's what makes him a pro. I don't think a pro should have to ask a rep what size pipe to use, and how to place it. Maybe that's just me.



The problem is with the contractor in this case, and I can understand why this manufacturer, or any manufacturer would not want to get in the middle of that.



How far into the piping does a boiler manufacturer's responsibility go? Should we also hold accountable the other manufacturers of equipment on that system if the contractor doesn't know how to install it?



What's the difference between a true heating professional and a knucklehead?



Your turn.

DanHolohan

Good.

A reasonable approach.Thanks, David.

PJB177

Boiler

Trust me when I say that I have been through the installation manual and showed the relevant parts to my contractor.  He then called and emailed the rep to discuss the requirements in the manual and how he planned to fix the boiler.  Something that the rep said and/or emailed to the contractor, whether or not the contractor misunderstood what the rep said or not, has apparently made

him think that it is ok to go against what is written in the

manufacturers installation manual.  The installer does intend to come back and fix his installation, but does not intend to use swing joints and the correct size header, and based on those discussions he thinks that this would be ok.  Otherwise, if there wasn't any confusion, he would have to go by what the manual said.  Even if the contractor uses a less desirable steam piping material in copper, he would still need to use the correct sized header and swing joints for optimal performance of the boiler and to prevent future malfunction and breakdown, correct?

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Given that peerless won't send me an email to confirm what is written in the installation manual, do you think that they will put anything in writing to confirm the install meets the requirements of their warranty?  I took the advice I received on this forum and called someone at Peerless, about their product.  I hardly think that I have done anything wrong in asking the people who made the boiler installation manual for clarification.  I know that there is a lot I could have done to avoid this situation:  a tighter contract with the heating company, and more research before I went ahead with the install (finding this site a couple months earlier would have been nice), but I can't go back and change that, and I don't think that puts me at fault for the job not being done correctly.

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I never thought the contractor would be willing to do an install against the instructions, I never thought asking Peerless to confirm the instructions would have been such a big deal and that they would have refused to send the email, and I certainly never asked for the president of the company to give me a call.  I just want to have my boiler installed in a way that will cause it to perform the best without voiding the warranty or causing future problems.  Thanks to everyone for your advice and comments, though, it has been very helpful.

DanHolohan

Final thoughts

When you hire a heating professional to install a steam boiler I beileve that professional should deliver a balanced, well-heated system. He should ask you up front if there are any rooms that are not heating well, if you hear water hammer, questions such as that. He should be concerned with your comfort and he should do his best to deliver a boiler system that will run economically.  He shouldn't put you in the middle of a he said, she said. That's what seems to be happening here. He should be responsible.



I know of no manufacturer in this business who would get in the middle of something like this, especially since they haven't seen the job.



I hope people read and learn from this thread. Professionals deliver results and stand behind their work, even if their mistakes cost them money. I will always believe this.



I wish you well.

Steamhead

What troubles me about this

is that any time anything goes wrong during a warranty period, the first thing the manufacturer determines is whether the equipment was installed properly- which means, did the installer follow the manufacturer's instructions?



If not, generally the warranty is void.



With the overall market share for boilers overshadowed by heat pumps, I wonder why a contractor or manufacturer would let such a situation develop? Our wet-heat industry has some great equipment out there, but if we don't keep our customers happy they'll go elsewhere.



There are some manufacturers who take the position that the distributor is their customer, then the wholesaler is the distributor's customer, then the contractor is the wholesaler's customer and finally the building owner is the contractor's customer. Our company hasn't installed much Peerless equipment so I'm really not sure what their position is on this. But I can tell you that (listed alphabetically of course) Beckett, Boyertown Furnace (Solaia boilers), Burnham, Carlin, Columbia, Slant/Fin and others really do care that the people who have their equipment in their buildings are happy with it, and do a great job of supporting their equipment.

David Nadle

Warranty

Peerless may be more willing to discuss their warranty because that is between them and you. I hope you'll consider posting pictures here. It really might help set your mind at ease, or give you useful information to share with your installer.

Mark Eatherton

In the eyes of the court system....

If it isn't in writing, it doesn't exist.Something to think about for all parties concerned...ME

DavidK_2

OK, I'll play. . .

Here is the way I see it.



The copper pipe is connected to the boiler by a threaded fitting (i.e. swing joint).

It is unlikely the expansion of the piping will rip apart the furnace (though I suppose it is possible). So, the furnace maker is probably safe.



The piping may, or may not, be a problem in several years. The joints could start leaking, or the pipe could bend back and forth enough (due to thermal expansion and contraction) to become work hardened and start cracking. Or they could be just fine - only time will tell. How much warrantee does the plumber provide?



It sounds like your plumber has agreed to come back and add a second riser. Do you know yet how this will be connected? Hopefully using a "swing" joint as the instructions require. It might well be that everything will be just fine.



I'm glad I'm not in your position, but at least you'll know better for next time, and this thread might help somebody else.

PJB177

Plumber

If I look at how he did the current piping - he used a threaded copper fitting at the connection between the boiler and riser, but the remainder were soldered connections.  I understand there is nothing to forbid copper in the installation, but I was hoping I could get some backup for having the correct size piping and swing joints, but I've had no luck so far.



I will certainly update this after I finalize the repairs to the system, whether through the original contractor or the a new contractor.  Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and advice.

Timco

piping

Is there anything expressly forbidding the use of PVC or ABS for the boiler risers? It is just bad practice vs. good practice, and industry standards.



I re-piped a Smith boiler last year, and Smith was VERY helpful regarding my proposed changes, and stood behind my observations that the near boiler piping was wrong. Customers (building managers / homeowners / investors) do not understand the schematics in these manuals, but simple yes or no replies to questions such as "does this boiler need 2 risers?" or "is being out of level an issue?" really help. Granted, in my case I was thankfully not the original installer and was proposing fixes to banging and other issues, but I would think that specific replies to specific piping concerns is not too much to ask of the manufacturer, especially in regards to the pipe material. Would they weigh in if you proposed to use PVC?



I also completely agree with Dan. Your installer's first concern should be your overall comfort and satisfaction, period. You hired him to provide you with that. I called the manufacturer to verify my concerns, not to double-check my design or materials. Further, I bit the bullet and asked questions where I had one, and made damn sure it was right before setting my design in iron not just for my own sake, but for my customer's sake. They deserve it.



Peerless may have taken a different approach if you did not indicate from the start that the opinion and email sought was regarding a dispute. In this case, the manual really is your only evidence besides finding literature stating industry standards. Problem is that most literature is pre-copper and written by long-dead men...



Best of luck with this issue....



Tim

rockhound57

ping, ping...

I'm being picky, but only one of those pic's seems to have the 24" risers recommended in a comment above. Different manufacturers spec's?

Patrick_North

Well, now...

Remember, this isn't 24" from the top of the boiler jacket. If you eyeball the sight glass on each of these boilers, I think you'll find the 24" is there.

I'm not sure what brought this thread to the fore again, but I remember it as a real bummer. Any resolution from the homeowner?

Patrick

Bill_110

Heating Industry

This situation reminds me a lot of the old no liability without privity claim of auto manufacturers. If the dealer sold you a lemon, you couldn't make a claim against the manufacturer because there was no privity, you had to deal with the guy who sold you the car. Thankfully that situation changed for the better and I think all parties have benefitted from it. The heating industry is in need of some serious overhauling, IMHO.  



Many contractors exclusively sell a paticular make of boiler, they are obviously getting some type of discount on their price by doing so. I've looked at several installation manuals, and I have read Dan's Books, they all agree that in modern steam boilers the near boiler piping has to be considered part of the boiler itself. If this is true than how can the manufacturer say the near boiler piping is something that is not their concern?



As far as the consumer in this is concerned, their protection, by law, is based on the installer following the manufacturers installation instructions. This is what matters, unless the consumer signs a waiver releasing the installer from following the installation instructions. I'm not sure where the notion comes from that you (as a consumer) have to put exactly what you want in writing or the installer can do whatever they want without consequence , even though they themselves have not put any specifics in writing. What protection would this offer the average homeowner who has no technical knowledge of and perhaps interest in boiler installation standards? Their system is not working but they can't hold the installer responsible, because they didn't specify exactly what they wanted? This is what the manufacturer does, and that is the consumers protection under the law.





As to the matter of copper near boiler piping, there needs to be a new law enacted in each state and a national law as it relates to heating codes that the manufacturer must state in their installation manual in unequivocal terms whether or not it is ok to use copper piping above the water line in the installation their steam heating boilers or not? They are the technical experts, so why can't they take a clear stand on this issue? I find it extremely disengenuous that one of the seemingly most debated topics in steam heating, and where in the field so many systems are obviously being installed in copper, and yet there is a deafening silence on the part of boiler manufacturers as to whether it is alright to use copper or not! Cmon!!!!!



The law also needs to require every heating installer to state whether or not they are going to use copper or iron pipe above the water line in steam boiler installations.  Of course if the manufacturer states unequivocally in their installation manual that copper can not be used with their make of boiler, than copper would automatically be a non-option anyway.

Would any honest person be hurt by this clarity?  By the way, an itemized bill that any legitimate business provides would solve this problem  as well.