Boiler never reaches cut-out pressure

jpf321

unfamiliar with "bucket vent" .. is that like a trap?

i'm unfamiliar with the term "bucket vent" do you have a picture, brand, model?



you should post your pictures in the highest quality possible so that people here can blow them up as desired and trace pipes .. especially the boiler pics.



i didn't see the actual manifold of 3/4" vents .. only the place it was suppose to be ..



from the looks of things, perhaps you found a few more vents today, but your are SEVERELY undervented ... don't just go get a new #1 or #2 .. you need to run the numbers and see the actual venting needs of the system ... i have a handy-dandy Excel spreadsheet that will help with that. (see link in signature)



also before spending money on simply replacing what you have .. try the "blow test" and see what you find.

BroMariano

Will return with more photos

Thank you all! I will return with photos of the attempted "menorah", and also with what they are calling the bucket vent.



Sorry about the low quality of the pics. I haven't used a digital camera in a while and can't figure out how to increase the resolution. (Vow of poverty limits knowledge of technology over time!)



I understand the thoughts about the TRVs. We are going to try to close all rads on 2nd and 3rd floors to see what kind of change we get. That should reduce the sq. ft. enough to see some effect at the boiler, right?



Also discovered that one of the brothers here has Dans "Lost Art of Steam Heating" and "Linhardt's Field Guide". I am going to re-familiarize myself with those, too.



I'll be back after our mid-day prayers with more info and photos.



Thanks again!

jpf321

bucket traps???

are you talking about these?

http://www.heatinghelp.com/files/articles/1314/118.pdf

Charlie from wmass

Seems to be a couple of things

I think the cold is showing issues more this year than last. The piping is not quite kosher around the boiler. At least from the pictures you sent so far. It looks like the pipe supplying the system is 3 inch can you confirm the size? I am curious about the bucket vent. I am thinking it is a trap, possibly a F&T trap being used as a main vent? The Gortons on the 5 foot pipe has me wondering if that pipe is a drain from the F&T trap. I would suggest using Gorton # 2 vents instead of the #1's. Your idea with the TRV's is a start. Also the idea of more run cycles to even the heat is also one to be heeded. Best of luck.

BroMariano

A few more pics to help out

Here are the pics requested. (Found out how to do higher res!)First, the menorah that we had on the 2nd return.The second is actually a "vacuum air valve", as printed on the housing itself.When we removed the 5' vertical with the Gorton #1, steam was coming out rapidly. It seems to me that no matter what size boiler we are supposed to have, the venting is off. We are going to calculate the venting requirements and go from their, since that is important no matter if the boiler is undersized or not. We'll see i that has any impact. Then we are going to proceed with inspecting the TRVs.

BroMariano

Pipe Supply Size is 3"

The elbows on those pipes do say 3". What is the correct sizing? If 3" is not up to boiler specs, should we call the installer to correct the mistake?



Also, the F&T trap is on the opposite side of the building on another main. No F&T Trap here. Just a long pipe. My suspicion is that they tried to shortcut because of lack of space to work. This Gorton is in a closet ceiling behind a refrigerator that is framed up to a drop ceiling. It is also mixed in with the disconnected pipes that ran to the church and one convent. Very hard to work on the ladder. Took us a few hours to get the old vents out.

BroMariano

Question about venting the Main

The book says to vent the Main 15" before the elbow in order to prevent hammer. We are not able to get 15" from the end. Instead of an elbow, there is currently a T that goes straight up from where the elbow would be.



How do we prevent hammer on the Main vents if we are not able to get to that 15" point?

Jamie Hall

If you go up

say 6" to a foot, and then you don't have a vent straight above that, but branch out to both sides for your vent tree, you should be fine.

jpf321

a walkthrough

i just had the privilege to go on a walkthrough of an apartment building here in Queens with a well established PRO here in NYC. in fact, his team just completed an overhaul/retrofit of Archbishop Molloy HS in Queens.



he is also a member here and has been following this thread. he would like to speak with you regarding visiting your location. if you drop me an email directly, I will pass along his phone number to you. he has years of experience with NYC HPD and NYC SCA and has worked on probably hundreds of NYC jobs.



thanks.

David Nadle

Preventing damaged vents from hammer

the 15" recommendation is not to prevent hammer, it's to prevent any possible hammer from destroying the vent. If you can't do it you can't do it, no big deal. Creating a tree (antler, menorah, etc.) of vents and connecting it to your tee with an elbow might help protect them a little more.

BroMariano

SUCCESS!!!

Well, we finally have heat. Lots of heat....We still don't reach cut out pressure, but the heat is on, and thats the most important thing.The camera is out of battery, so I can't update the pics right now. I will charge them and return just in case anyone is interested.We added the Main vents, menorah style, to the two Mains. 3 on the large one and 2 on the other. All radiators were fully hot, vents closed, in under two hours for the whole building. I just have to change a pipe pitch and a few vent sizes to tweak the system a bit.The dorms on the third floor are actually too hot now, so we shut the system off and will be adjusting the TRVs this week. The best news is that we finished the work just as a college group arrived from PA to do some mission work with us.Thank you for all your comments and suggestions. And if anyone is interested in a walkthrough, we would be happy to show you around anyway.

nicholas bonham-carter

bravo br. mariano!!

now that you are on the road to reliable and effective heat, what about getting rid of that timer, and getting a proper control system for your boiler-- even a steam-rated thermostat would save money, and contribute to comfort. if the building is somewhat stretched out, the honeywell visionpro thermostat can have a remote sensor in the coldest part of the building, while the control unit remains in a secure location. alternatively, the tekmar 279 also uses an interior sensor with an outdoor sensor to regulate the heat according to the outside temperature.

and we love pictures!!--nbc

jpf321

that's fantastic!!!

and who says main venting doesn't matter? 



very glad to hear that you were able to get the air out of the system and the heat where it was needed... what kind of main vents did you install? Gorton #2s?



i just did a walk through of a home tonight .. I found a little tiny Gorton (#D?) vent on a 500sf EDR system...in their garage of all places



i would like to stop by sometime and get a tour, part of my trying to get out to see more things in the world of steam... what time of day would be best giving your normal schedule ?



congrats!

Charlie from wmass

Glad to hear you are back in business

One more chalked up for main line vents. As far as reaching pressure, if the boiler is sized very close or even a bit smaller than the connected load it may not shut off on pressure on cold days. The main question is "Are you comfortable with the warmth and how it is reaching the different parts of your building?". The boiler may well supply enough BTU's to warm the building but not be able to fill the radiators with steam to pressure. One more thought is the pressuretrol is set beyond what the boiler can reach for pressure when attached to the given system.

BroMariano

A great suggestions!

Br. Max and I were just asking ourselves this morning if such a thing existed and how much it is. Thanks for the suggestions. He is going to look into it this week,

BroMariano

Come on by!

The vents weren't Gortons, as the store didn't carry them. I believe they were MaidoMist equivalents of the Gorton #1s, so we sized them accordingly and just added more. Br. Max is going to another plumbing store in the area this week, so if he can find the Gortons, he is going to use them and move the MaidoMists to the friary boiler.



I fixed that one 3 years ago when I first read Dan's book. I got hooked after fixing a boiler in our novitiate in Newark, NJ, in the oldest Dominican cloister in the US. It was given to us Franciscans a few years back.



Please e-mail me your contact info. We would love to have you visit. We are here all week all day, so its just a matter of catching a good time for me to walk you through. Send me a line and I'll work it out.

BroMariano

Satisfied with Heat

We are content with how the building is heating. We are going to look into zone thermostats as suggested above. For the time being, Br. Max adjusted the timing cycle and it works well, but probably not very efficient.



The pressuretrol is set to .5 psi with a differential of 1, and thats as low as I can get it. The other one, the backup, is set to 5. You make a good point. Should I set it to 2 or 3?

jpf321

i sent you my info

i sent you a private message through the wall with my info, please let me know if you do not receive it.