Broomell Vapor System

TRO024

We have a job with a Broomell vapor system in place.  Over the last few years the guy was losing heat in the radiators so he called us in to look over the system.  I flooded the boiler to find it was leaking .  The boiler was only 10 years old.  So we get a new boiler block under warranty.  We replaced just the boiler block and still having a problem heating.  I checked all the traps and they are clean.  The boiler seems to short cycle gets up to 8 oz and shuts off. The pressure drops real quick

(like in 30 sec ) and turns back on. I have been threw this whole system and cant think of what can be wrong .   Any ideas?????

Jamie Hall

Lovely systems

and dead simple, at that.  May I presume that the only thing that got changed out with the boiler was the boiler?  I hope...



If so, two quick questions: is the system giving you any heat at all?  And how long does it take, from a cold start, to get to the 8 ounce cutout pressure?  The 30 second drop after the burner shuts off sounds a little short, but may not be -- depending on the size of the system overall.  However, the system should run long enough to get most of the radiators, if not all of them, at least partly hot before the pressure starts to rise.



I presume, when you say you have checked the traps (I use the term trap here not in the usual sense, but referring to the Broomell  special unions) at the radiators, that both the bottom of the trap is clear -- and the little air hole at the top of the trap is open.  That's important and, if it plugged up (which happens all too often!) you will get no heat, or very little heat, in that radiator.



I also presume that the air line to the condensing radiator, the condensing radiator, and its outlet to the flue are still in place?  If not, have they been replaced by a really good sized main vent or vents?  If not, they need to be -- that could be another source of your difficulties (although a gradual loss of heat suggests not -- sounds more like the air holes in the traps.  But you never know...).



All that being said, otherwise I would look at the usual suspects -- water line in the new boiler about the same as the original?  All the steam mains insulated?  Pipe pitches all what they should be -- no sags or reversals, particularly in the dry return?

TRO024

vapor

Yes the only thing changed was the boiler block.  Its a Weil Mclain 480 boiler.  It still has the condensing radiator and the outlet to the flue.  The system was replaced 10 yrs ago so same water line .  The best part is the first night everything heated and worked great   next day not so much.  No sags in the pipes  but the homeowner did take down the insulation.I took off one of the rad. valves and get a little puff of steam then the boiler turns off on psi from vaporstat

Jamie Hall

How odd...

usually those things work just great.  I wonder a little, though, if it is possible that without the insulation the steam is condensing in the mains and the condensate is then blocking the steam flow.  That is speculation.  But at the moment that's what meets the eye... can you put the insulation back?  Or new insulation?  He should have it anyway.



The condensation in the mains could be hanging up somewhere... argh.  I'll sleep on it.  And maybe think of something.

BRIANJ

The Old Broomell

If you have cleaned up all the return el's as discussed and no change then I would inspect one of the valves. Are they BROOMELL or VAPOR? It's possible that thru the years the quintuple valve is no longer functioning properly. The valves disk gets stuck and people try to force the valve open. The square hole in the orifice becomes rounded and won't budge.

Open up one of the valves and see if this is the problem. I can fix get them fixed for you if you like.  Good Luck. Brian

TRO024

vapor

the valves are clean and work great.  The thing that gets me is that the first night worked great now can get it to heat quickly.  I spent 5 hrs there yesterday and only half the radiators heated half way

BRIANJ

The Old Broomell

Trying to get a better understanding of what is going wrong and have some observations and questions.

You say the system has been losing heating capacity for the last several years. Valves and return el's are all clean and working properly. Was the boiler cleaned and skimed after the new block was installed?  You say the traps are clean, have the return el's been removed and replaced with traps. What is the total EDR of the radiators? Is it possible that boiler is under sized?

If it's cutting out at 8oz. I presume you have a Vaporstat and low pressure gauge on the system. The gauge would confirm the 8 oz cutout.

It's hard to believe that the supply lines are clogged with corrosion although it is possible. My Broomell system is 97 tears old and we do not have any supply problems. And is there is so little steam being generated that seems to put the problem at the boiler.



Can you post some near boiler pictures? Maybe something will show up.

Good Luck. Brian

TRO024

bromell

The customer has only been there the last 3 years.  First year was ok.  Next year a few not heating up all the way.  This year none heating up all the way.  We just happened to find that the boiler was leaking.  Come to find out the customer removed the insulation from the supply pipes last year. The boiler is not surging. The vaporstat and gauge and the old bromell system all show the same 8 oz.  What keeps getting me stuck is that the first night everything heated up fast and worked fine.  There was no problem till the next morning.  The only thing that was replaced was the boiler block.  All controls and piping were reused(due to the fact it was only 10 years old).  The traps i am talking about are the bromell els. The els and the supply valves are clean and free.

Jamie Hall

Reinsulate

the pipes.  As soon as you can -- that's a good size chunk of your problem.  In fact, it may be almost all of it -- condensation in the mains impeding the flow of steam -- and condensing most of it before it gets anywhere useful.



Then we can go from there.

CB66

Some more questions....

I'm on the job with TRO024 - I agree with insulating the pipes but if the pipes were not properly insulated to begin with then how would that explain us getting heat when we originally replaced the system? Is it possible that we are having a venting problem only now after the system has been running...could it be a vacuum related problem? Is there something that can be installed to relieve the vacuum? The other day, we opened the supplies to some of the radiators with the system on cycling on and off, only getting very small amounts of vapors with the valve off at the supplies. We were concerned with the venting and went to the condensate receiver, opened it and condensate flows fine/clear...the condensing manifold which has the vent pipe that leads in to the chimmey was intact, disconnected the vent pipe and it broke (awesome...) - old bushing on condensating manifold, need to repair. With the system running, I put a draft gauge at the vent hole from the manifold, when the system runs, I get positive pressure out of the vent hole. On off cycle the system goes into vacuum, sucks air back in. How crutial is the vent pipe into the chimney - is the chimney's natural draft important to move the vapor through the system?? I would think if we make pressure at the boiler, I would see more pressure at the radiator supply....I plan to rehook the vent pipe back up ..but I'm not sure this is going to help and I don't know if insulating the pipes will remediate this problem. Any thoughts?? Thanks.

Jamie Hall

The thing

which really has me puzzled is that it ran OK, then gradually started to not run.  Gradual changes like that are the most puzzling.  Did all the insulation come off at once, and it ran OK afterwards?



As for the vent to the chimney, it will create a slight vacuum in the system, which can only help it run better -- I'd go ahead and replace it (sorry about that pipe that broke -- but not unduly surprised; I've busted a few...).  That whole thing is your main venting, and will do the job quite nicely -- or should.



I think my thought is that somewhere there is condensate collecting where it shouldn't, and tending to block flow -- although your getting pressure at the vent, however, small, makes me wonder even about that hypothesis.



One thing to note: you can't get pressure at the boiler, except a very small amount, while steam is still going out to fill the system.  It's condensing as fast out there as the boiler can make it.  If you do get a pressure rise before most of the radiation is beginning to heat, then you surely do have a block somewhere!  So in a way, no pressure isn't bad news!

CB66

response to the broomell system

still trying to plan out our next step we talking about possibly drilling and tapping some test ports on supply main to see pressure of vapor or condensate in main ? were planing on going back to reattach the vent pipe to the condensing manifold. the manifold has rust and scale build up but as i said its venting out some air and sucking back in on of cycle ? the system is like a tug of war! were still trying to figure out a productive  plan of action as i'm sure you all know were starting to pile up some non billable man hours . what do you think of test ports idea? i sent some pictures .thanks again , frustrated boiler guy!!!!    

Gordo

On that WM 480

Are those 4" pipes coming out of that boiler?