condensate return issue

zachs

Having issues with the end of main section. 4 radiators on that section not heating at all due to waterlock from condensate. This section also does not have a gravity return, the end of the main reduces down to 1 in pipe that feeds the last radiator riser then connects to a 1 1/4 inch copper that goes up into crawl space then down into boiler wet return. Steam heat 1 pipe system. Cannot find any info on how this system is supposed to work. Also had a pro who also has never seen this type of system. Any help is appreciated.

Unknown

Need More Info

Trying to put a good mental image together of your system. A few more questions. -

What size is the main to which the four radiators are connected?  This main to which the radiators are connected, which way does it slope? - towards or away from the boiler? Has this system ever worked properly?  Are there other mains and radiators in the house? Post some pictures of the system if you can.  - Rod

Steamhead

Sounds like

someone didn't know how to pipe the end of that main. Can you post some pics? 

zachs

More info

Here is a little more information.

The main starts at 4" then reduces eventually down to 1 1/2" that feed last 2 risers, at that point it is assumed to connect to 1 1/4 inch copper that returns to boiler.  This is all assumed due to these connections are beneath a floor unaccessible.  The copper then rises between 2-4 ft then falls and connects to boiler wet return.

The rest of the system works terrific. This little section has been a problem.  It was partially working about 3 years ago, then quit altogether. My family has owned building for 24 years, boiler replaced originally, but nothing done to piping.

I have checked main line slope, all good.  Sorry for the lengthy reply, but one last item of note.

If I shut valve from this return to wet return then bleed this section, the steam will push through and radiators will heat properly, bu this is a manual operation and last only long enough for condensate to build up.

DavidK_2

Water does not like to flow up hill

My guess is that copper section was not run in a way that lets the water flow down hill . . .

Unknown

Piping Problems

Hi - First of all I would suggest you get a real steam pro to look at your system for you.  From your description and diagram your system has some serious problems which a steam pro could quickly straighten out for you.  Keep in mind : "All good Steam Pros are good plumbers but few plumbers are good steam pros" . Getting a real steam pro would be the easiest /fastest way to get you system back on track. Either tell us where you are located or look in the "Find a Professional" at the top of the page. (In the "Find a Professional" scroll down the page and look under your "State" as the Zip Code function software has been updated recently and still has a few "bugs"  There are some really good steam pros listed there.



From the info you provided, your steam pressure is way too high and this is costing you excessively on your fuel bills Your system should be running at a maximum of 2 PSI and even lower is preferable. (The Empire State Building's steam system runs under 2 PSI !)

On your diagram I made some notes;

Note "X" - As DavidK mentioned water doesn't run up hill, so this part of the system (marked in red) is useless if it is as the diagram suggests.

Note "A" - It would really help if we had a picture of your piping connected to /near the boiler as this might be a clue as to why your boiler pressure is so high.



You mentioned you checked the main slope but didn't tell us which way the main sloped so questions "B" to "D" are about that. I know this is very basic but with these old systems you find strange things so it pays to go back to the basics.

Note "B" - Which way does this pipe slope" towards or away from the Boiler? Your diagram shows it towards the boiler.

Note "C" -  For this section of pipe -Same question as Note "B"

Note "D" - For this section of pipe - Same question as Note "B"

Note "E" - What is the distance above the boiler waterline?

Note "F"  - What is the distance above the boiler waterline?

You mentioned  "bleeding" the system at what position in the piping do you do this?

This problem section of your system was obviously added or changed somewhere back in time by a "knucklehead" as no steam man would have piped it this way. The question now is what is the best method of straightening it out. We'll do our best to answer your questions to help you but I would again advise you to seek out a real steam pro. - Rod

Jamie Hall

I'm trying

I really am, to envision that section of the piping which is the problem.  From what I can make out, it looks to me as though the return has to run up to get back to the rest of the system?



Uh, no.  That might work if the pressure was high enough, but that is going to be much too high for the rest of the system.  Even then it's unlikely.  That section is going to have to be reworked so that the return can drain freely.

jpf321

what if ..

what if you/he just added piping shown in RED here: http://screencast.com/t/M2FlZjJk

Unknown

Parallel or Counterflow?

LOL- JPF- You're "jumping the gun!" We have to make sure of the direction of the slope first. There also maybe a height problem, especially with high pressure. - Rod

jpf321

it looks like

it looks like he was purposeful in his slopes in the drawing .. i can't for the life of me figure out why this was ever designed as drawn..i understand that my red pipes would cause counter-flow for those last few risers, but at least the condensate would drain in what looks to be the lowest part of the system....i'm pretty hopeful that once he has a return in the lowest part of the system, he will be able to drop his pressure significantly.



reminds me when I was in college and every week I would put in a service request for the dorm bathroom to "move the drain to the lowest part of the floor please" .. which of course is oxymoronic since the drain was supposed to already be in the lowest part of the floor...needless to say, the request was never fufilled and we always had a big puddle right in front of the sinks after someone showered.

Unknown

Parallel or Counterflow?

I noticed that in the drawing too. But since things are so "odd ball", that's why I questioned direction of slope on each pipe in my reply.as I don't want to get trapped in the olde "assume " bit.



When you come across piping oddities which have no thyme or reason, I always wish I had a time machine to go back and ask the knucklehead who did it, what exactly was his train of thought? - Rod

zachs

slope and rise info

Ok here goes.  Slope info, note B slopes toward boiler (meaning low point at boiler).  Note C is where the slope starts going away from boiler, same with D.

Note E since I am not at property I am guessing at 3-4 ft,  that would be around the same height as Note F.  The tricky part is the last problem section is all located underneath the floor of a commercial unit, unaccessible.

The location where I "bleed" the line is where copper line returns back to wet return just above vent, there is a ball valve installed that I turn off closing the return from the wet return section.  Then turn boiler on, the pressure from the boiler is enough to push the condensate up through the copper retun. The radiators heat properly.  When I open the valve so condensate goes back into boiler the circulation ends and heat stops. I am envisioning the back pressure from wet return blocking condensate from returning. 

A steam pro would be good.  Although I am in Longmont, CO 80501. not many guys like that.

Sorry about slope confusion in drawing

Timco

access

I may have missed if this was already stated, but what is the access to the mains / returns? Along a basement ceiling or in a tight crawlspace? Seems like a couple / few day job to just re-pipe with correct slopes and be done with it, and run it at .5lb. Maybe ask Dave Stroman from Denver to have a look if he is interested? He is on this site and has done some nice steam work. I am in SLC. Either way, does not seem like there is a easy way to do this, and rather than trying to add a pump or a F&T trap to let the condensate drain out of the low spots, just fix the piping. Pretty simple piping, if it is accessible.



Tim

zachs

slope correction

I made a mistake earlier. The slope of all the mains is away from boiler, I rechecked all.



On another note. The. Main line vent on the copper return is located only 9 inches above the boiler water line, is this enough height, I do have water spitting out of that vent regularly.