1st home. New to steam

Rob_55

Hi All,

I've been reading about steam heat and trying to balance the single pipe steam heat in my house.  There are 7 radiators in my 1,200 sqft house.  They are all ~4ft in length, except bed 1 and bath, which are ~2ft (see image in link below).  Each has a Vent Rite #1 vent with an adjustable knob at the bottom (1-8).  There are  also two vents in the basement attached to the return lines.  They are labeled #34. 



So I noticed that the pressure gauge recently started to got to 10.  From reading these forums, I think it should be between 0 and 2 at most.  This got me worried.  I turned the screw on the pressurtrol back and forth because I've heard they stick.  Turned the heat on and it got to 5 on the gauge before the thermostat shut off. 



What else can I check/do to get the pressure to lower?  Also, heating is uneven.  What should I set the dials to on the radiator vents?  Could my current settings be increasing the pressure?



Thank you for any help you can provide.

Rob



Please check this link for images of my system.



<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/Robert.F.Miller/HouseHeatingSystem?feat=directlink">http://picasaweb.google.com/Robert.F.Miller/HouseHeatingSystem?feat=directlink</a>



<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/Robert.F.Miller/HouseHeatingSystem?feat=embedwebsite"><img /></a><span style="color:#4D4D4D"><strong><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/Robert.F.Miller/HouseHeatingSystem?feat=embedwebsite">House Heating System</a></strong></span>

Steamhead

Part of the problem

could be the piping on which the pressuretrol and gauge are mounted. This piping comes out of the top of the low-water cutoff, where it can take in enough dirt as to plug it up. It's possible the pipe between the gauge and the pressuretrol is plugged, which would explain the gauge reading so high.



If I were servicing that boiler, I'd move these units to the top of the boiler, where they would be much less likely to plug up. The pic shows how we did this on a larger W-M.



The vents on the mains are probably too small. Measure the length and diameter of each steam main and we can tell you what's needed.



The nameplate photo isn't clear, but it looks like your boiler is a 68-series W-M. The flueways on these boilers can easily plug with soot if the burner isn't set up just right. Adding an oil delay valve setup would help a lot.



The kinds of work you need are best handled by a pro. Try the Find a Professional page of this site to locate one neat you. If you're in the Baltimore area, let me know!

jpf321

clean p-ptrol pipes

it may be that the pipes and elbow between the tee and the p-trol is crudded up .. or maybe even the ptrol itself. since your gauge works, it's pretty likely that the pipe from the boiler to the tee is clear. normally gauges and ptrols should be put on a "pigtail" (or 2) (brass) .. have a look at my pics in link in my signature ..



as far as what vent settings for each rad .. have a look at the venting recommendation worksheet linked in my signature.. you will need to determine the EDR (sqft) for each rad and will need to measure the length and diameter of the pipes... although the worksheet is designed for Gortons or hoffman 1-A adjustables, it shoudl give you an idea of how to vent each rad relative to the others.



and of course you need to be sure that you have copious amounts of "main" venting .. the mains are the overhead pipes in the basement from which the radiator risers branch..they should have a vent or two towards the end of them (after last radiator branch)



i hope that you have (or are getting)  Dan's books .. the Lost Art of steam Heating (LAOSH) and We Got Steam .. he has a "steamy deal" for 3 books here: http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Super-Deals/14/129/A-Steamy-Deal

Jamie Hall

One of the most likely

possibilities is that the pigtail leading to the pressuretrol has gotten clogged.  They do.  But if your pressure gauge is for real, that pressure is way too high -- you are quite correct that it should never be more than 2 psi.  First thing I would check would be that pigtail...



There's absolutely no point in fiddling with the vents or balancing until the pressure is more like right.

Unknown

Safety Valve Needs Attention

Hi Rob- I typed out a reply but when I went to post it saw that others had already said the same things so deleted what was redundant.

The one thing I wanted to mention is that in looking at your photos it would seem that your T&P safety valve on top of your boiler doesn't have a exhaust pipe attached to it. There should be a pipe leading from the valve down to near the floor to direct steam safely away if the valve opens. With you high pressure problem if the safety opened you could get shot of live steam in your face so be very, very careful around the boiler when it is in operation. I'd get this corrected immediately. - Rod

Rob_55

Response to questions

Thank you all so much.  This site is great!  Never had so many replies to a 1st post.







All:



How do I clean out/replace the pigtail?  Remove gauge and unscrew it?







I'll check the mains vents as well and I was aware of problem with the

release valve (inspector noted it in his report).  I've been careful to

avoid the boiler when in operation (with the exception of those

pictures!).







Steamhead:



To answer your question.  The main pipe out of the boiler is 2"

(according to the insulation wrap) and goes up 30".  After that it

splits into two directions.  One is a 2" pipe going 15' and the other

2" pipe goes for 12'.  I don't know about the branches that lead to the

radiators (I estimated them in my drawing).  If you need exact figures,

I can try to measure.







JPF321:



Is EDR just length x width of radiator?







Thank you all very much.

Steamhead

You need bigger main vents

use a Gorton #1 or Hoffman #75 at the end of each main. Both vents have about the same capacity. 

Jamie Hall

If you're moderately handy

with a pipe wrench, the pigtail can be unscrewed from the boiler.  Do this with the boiler cool, and the emergency switch off!  Then you can see if it's plugged.  Wouldn't be surprised; it would probably be better, on the whole, to replace it (preferably with red brass fittings -- they don't plug so easily) than to try to clean it, and you might as well relocate it as Steamhead suggests while you're at it.



Jpf will probably come back to you too, but the EDR is the effective direct radiating area of the radiator -- and includes the total area of all the various tubes and so on, so it is quite a bit bigger than just length times height.  There are references for that, or we may be able to help you.

Rob_55

Thanks

Thank you for all your help.  I'll tackle it after the holidays.  If anyone knows a good steam guy in Massachusetts, please let me know.



Happy holidays and New Year.

Jamie Hall

Where

in Massachusetts?  Makes a difference...

Charlie from wmass

Not so much Jamie.

I have a Toyota so I can travel a fair ways.  I hope you have a good holiday.  The great thing in Mass is we are licensed from one end to the other.

Jamie Hall

Fair enough,

Charlie!  So the answer to is there a good steam man in Mass. is yes -- Charlie is one of the best around -- go for it!

Rob_55

eastern MA

Live in Walpole, MA...that would be quite a trip for Mr. Garrity

jpf321

a couple of things ...

1) I do not think that you have a pigtail on the gauge/ptrol .. it looks like the tap comes straight from boiler to a Tee then elbows on either side of the T to the gauge and ptrol.



2) It's really hard to tell where the waterline is in that sight-glass .. but if it at the level of the cable-tie, what no one has mentioned yet is that your water line is practically inside your pressure gauge and nearly inside your ptrol .. this could definitely be a problem I'd imagine.



3) EDR = equivalent direct radiation .. this site sells a fantastic reference for nearly every radiator ever made. http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Books/5/80/E-D-R-Ratings-for-Every-Darn-Radiator-and-convector-youll-probably-ever-see .. however, to get a general estimate .. have a look at the attached PDF (previously posted by Rod I believe) and the linked PDF here http://www.secsupply.com/WeilMcLain_Radiation%20Reference%20Tables.pdf .. it gives you a general way to figure EDR.

Rob_55

Cutoff and Pigtail

Here's an image of the pigtail.  Looks like it comes out of the low water cut-off



http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/CEs05qKfY32VslitQj6S2g?feat=directlink





There is a label on the boiler that says fill the water level to 1/4" from the top of the gauge.  The guy who does my annual cleaning set the wire tie at the current level, about 1" from the top. 



The current water level in the filthy gauge is about 1/4" below the wire tie.  I drain the cutoff a few times a week and refill the water (manually).



http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/2tBe9vM4hZ1fFvfkKoSXyQ?feat=directlink

jpf321

aha

Yes, thats a pigtail alright .. was hard to see in other pics.



If you are talking about the 1/4" label behind the gauge .. it says minimum safe operation 1/4" above lowest visible part .. which is way down at the bottom. You will also notice an double headed arrow on your LWCO .. that's where the waterline is.



I think you could safely drop your level to 1/2gauge or 1/3gauge. The most important part is that when you have all steam out of the boiler (and presumably in the radiators) .. your LWCO doesn't trip due to low water. The more water in the boiler, the more you have to heat to create steam..for example, would you rather boil 4gal or 12gal?

DavidK_2

It is worth calling

or emailing a Pro. Charles Garrity came to my house in Albany NY. He might come to your house. It was not cheap, but I feel I got value for my money. He is knowledgeable and intelligent. We (I) might have bought a gas valve that was not needed, but that was a decision we reached together, and after 20 years on the original I don't feel bad.

He did things I was nervous to do, and he did them well as near as I can tell. He took care of my boiler, and was willing to talk with me about what he did.

Highly recommended. Make that Very Highly recommended.



No I'm not addicted to the Wall, the wife and kids went to see a movie - I'm not much a movie person, so I stayed home to cook diner.

Charlie from wmass

thanks for the kind words Jamie and David.

Rob changing out your pigtail is a good start. the one you have is not install where it was suppose to when the boiler was installed as it keeps the sludge in the tee and elbows. A full 180 pigtail would be better instead of the 90 degree model you have.



On a side bar I am confident changing out your gas valve David was the right call.

Rob_55

Next Steps

Thank you all.  I am willing to attempt to replace the existing pigtail, but changing it to a 180 pigtail is a little more than I am willing to try.



Here are my next steps based on your suggestions:



1. lower the water level and fix safety valve

2. clean/replace pigtai

3. change main vents to a Gorton #1 or Hoffman #75 (cheaper)

4. Determine EDR for each rad and set adjustables accordingly

5. If I'm still having trouble...call Charlie!!!



On a side note, my father is trying to convince me to switch to electric baseboard for convenience and space reasons....I question the impact on my monthly electric bill.  From what I've found, it might be easier than studying the lost art of steam!

jpf321

main venting...

Wait on main venting until you have measured length and diameter and assessed your needs based on feedback from the Wall or by using my Excel Worksheet. Don't assume that 1pcs of Gorton 1 or Hoffman 75 will be sufficient for main vents. You may need several pieces.



See if you have another 1/4" tap for your pigtail which is located on the top of the boiler (after reviewing the pics, it doesn't look like it..perhaps putting in a 12" nipple to raise it up would be better and use a pipe union to attach a 180deg pigtail to the nipple.).. you may have to lengthen your p-trol wires, but as steamhead suggests, moving them towards the top of the boiler is better and then you can use a 180deg pigtail.

Rob_55

Workshseet

jpf321:



What is runout length?

What should I set minutes to vent to?  set all to 10?

How do I determine EDF for 2" main pipes (15' & 12' off of 30" riser from boiler)



I've filled out the radiator info (except runout) on the attached file.



Thanks!

jpf321

contact me directly...

my email address is in the sheet.

1) NO EDR for mains

2) try 3mins for everything as a theoretical number

2) runout length is the length of pipe from main to radiator inlet

3) you can't post excel files here.

DavidK_2

Charlie,

You are probably right But I think cleaning out that pilot gas tube was the key to apparently curing my false starts. 

Unknown

Water Level

Your boiler's Water Level is determined by the manufacturer and will be listed in the I&O manual.  It is a vertical measurement from the base of the boiler cabinet (floor).  If you don't have the manual let us know the model number of you boiler an we can look it up for you.



The things wrong with your boiler as rather minor and fairly easily fixed. A lot of us have been in the same situation as you are and while at first it may seem a bit overwheming you soon get the hang of things. As was mentioned earlier, get Dan's books on steam heating. They are written for the homeowner (or pro) new to steam, are easy humorous reeading and in an evening or two of reading you'll know far more about your steam system. "The books" pay for themselves very quickly.



 Pigtail Setup - If you can't find one locally you can get one from Mc Master Carr

http://www.mcmaster.com/    on the internet.  Type the number 4031K28 in the search window and that should take you right to it. This is the description: 180 degree Red Brass Pigtail   #  4031K28. The other brass pipe parts etc.you should be able to pick up from your local Home Depot.  I attached a picture of a 180 degree pigtail below. When you compare it to your present pigtail you can see the problem as your present  pigtail's loop won't form a water trap to protect the gauge and pressuretrol from the steam/water. Also you want to use elbows to orient your gauge and pressuretrol so the water will drain away from the gauge /pressuretrol.

- Rod

Charlie from wmass

If you own a power company go and switch to electricity

8 to 12 hundred a month in mass for electric heat. I think steam is easier. I think a full turn pigtail will not be a big deal to install. I also think there is a 1/4" plug in the boiler that pigtail was suppose to go into.

Rob_55

Thanks

Thank you all very much. You've all been so helpful  It's nice to have a community like this so willing to share information.



I'll be sure to pick up the book.  Happy New Year. 

JH_2

good advice

Rob-



[FYI, I'm a homeowner with steam about 20min drive from you (Holliston) ]



You got a lot of good advice.  If steamhead gave you recommendations for a set of main vents I'd listen. He has helped me out in that area twice and both times his recommendations worked great.  And go for the gortons. $50 for a couple vents is not bad and they are very well made.  I have similar diam mains to you but about 2-3 times the length over 3 runs. He steered me toward a gorton #2 and 3 #1s and my mains heat to the end in under 5 minutes. Good insulation helps.  Gortons highly recommended.



About your pressures... one other possibility is the gauge is bad.  My 0-30 gauge also reads 5psi pretty much any time the boiler is hot.. even before the mains warm up. I finally added a second 0-3 psi gauge tee'd off the pigtail and that doesn't even move.  SO it was a bad gauge.  You might try just replacing it first to confirm that.



Most any of these parts you need you can get at a local F.W. Webb plumbing supply.  There are a lot of them in this area. I go to the one near Bellingham - the staff there can help you find anything you need.



If you need somebody in to look but Charlie is too far to make it out there, I have had good luck with Jamie White from Paul Flaherty plumbing & heating out of Framingham. jamie isnt a steam specialist like Charlie or steamhead but he did go to the dead mans school and has "read the book" and wont steer you wrong. He is a really great guy, happy to answer questions and will explain every step of everything he does. Doesn't upsell either.



OTOH, if you were to find that you need major surgery like re-piping headers or something it might be worth it to get a steam specialist like Charlies help.  If you ever do  - send me a PM - I'd split his travel fees with ya to get him over my house while he is in the area and look at this one second floor radiator hammering  that no-one has been able to solve!



Good luck,

Jeremy

Rob_55

New pigtail gauge setup

Attached image is a very rough drawing of how I think a new pigtail and gauge should be setup on my system (not about to move pigtail from LWCO).  Excuse the poor drawing, I just got a graphics tablet and am learning...slowly.



Does this look OK?  What type of pipe should I use?



BTW, found that my bathroom radiator vent was clogged shut.  Seems like the radiator is really dirty inside.  this is the 2nd vent that has clogged.  The last one spit water and was covered in rust stains.



Unclogged it and it heats fine...no change in boiler pressure though.  Still around 5-6psi.



I changed the pressuretrol setting to cut in at 0.5psi and cut out at (cut-in =1.5).  I'll see how that works.  It was set to cut in at about 1.5.

Charlie from wmass

The sketch looks fine

Make sure  to not horse anything and keepp the pressure were you have it at 5.-1.5 and things should be better. I am betting on the clogged pigtail and a bad gauge. Get the pigtail changed before changing any more vents as many are only rated 3 pounds. You never know the gauge could actually be working.  

Rob_55

pressure up

Thanks Charlie.

Turned the heat on after adjusting the pressuretrol and the system is back at

10psi...not good.  Are my settings incorrect?  Not sure why it got

worse when I changed this.







Here's the pressuretrol image

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/hE73TEcwhAyz2wFbpLzYwA?feat=directlink





Here's what it says on the inside:



http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/p8NZiRciYm3JTAMPy3sLMQ?feat=directlink





More pics here

[url=http://picasaweb.google.com/Robert.F.Miller/HouseHeatingSystem?feat=directlink]http://picasaweb.google.com/Robert.F.Miller/HouseHeatingSystem?feat=directlink







 I'm waiting for new mains and pigtail to be delivered.  What type of pipe should I use to connect everything?  Steel?

Charlie from wmass

Brass is best

You can use malleble fittings and iron for the nipples but always use brass for the pigtail. It got worse because you have no pressure control because the pigtail is clogged. Take some plast of paris half fill a straw and let it harden, Then blow through the straw. It doesn't work right? Same thing with the clogged pigtail.

Rob_55

Black Ooze

Got the pigtail and gauge/pressuretrol assembly apart.  What a mess.  It was caked shut with a black gel like substance.  INstalling the new stuff now, but I can't get the old gauge off the piping.  Might just buy a new one. 



Gunk

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Iyhm01IJQZeuAmva0lg4CA?feat=directlink





Question:  The image of the pigtail that Rod posted shows water in the loop.  Do I add a little water to create the water trap or will that water get pushed up from the LWCO and create the trap itself?



I'll keep you guys posted...thank you again for all your help!

Charlie from wmass

I always add a bit of water

The steam will fill it but it will take longer to fill it than I like.

Rob_55

forgot to add water

I forgot to put in a little water before I connected everything.  Hopefully it will fill quickly.



Here are pics of the new assembly.  I'm testing it now...crossing my fingers.



[url=http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/wkYnAsqx8QKpheAr06YkwQ?feat=directlink]http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/wkYnAsqx8QKpheAr06YkwQ?feat=directlink



[url=http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/fVvOpiP4AUZSx9gOLwLBGQ?feat=directlink]http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/fVvOpiP4AUZSx9gOLwLBGQ?feat=directlink



[url=http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Dt9_Qg6uzT_DiQdjHpsFHQ?feat=directlink]http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Dt9_Qg6uzT_DiQdjHpsFHQ?feat=directlink



UPdate:

It works!  Thanks to all of you for your patience and help. 



Took about 30-40 minutes to heat up (been off all day).  Then it cut out at ~1.5.  Two minutes later it turned back on after the pressure dropped.  Pressure actualy dropped fairly quickly at first. 



Here's the cycle:

Start at 57 degrees.  Turn tstat to 63 deg

20-40 minutes of ON time , temp = 62 deg

pressure ~1.5, unit turns off for 2 min.

ON for 6 min, temp =63

pressure ~1.5, unit turns off for 2 min

On for 6 min, temp =64

pressure ~1.5, unit turns off for 2 min

ON for 6 min, temp =65

pressure ~1.5, unit turns off for 2 min

ON for 6 min, temp = 66



manually turned tstat down because I wasn't sure if this was short cycling.

All Vent Rite #1 vents are set to 6 and bathroom set to 4.  Might set them all to 8 to see if that improves cycle.

jpf321

glad to hear..

glad to hear all is working better. 

Charlie from wmass

Now the work begins.

Now you can work on up grading the main line vents and balancing the radiators. Happy to hear things worked out.