Water level issues

Paul Fredricks_3

Got one for yah, One pipe system. The boiler is hanging from 7' threaded rod. You can see from the pics below that the header is piped wrong, but the owner doesn't want to spend the money to correct it. The 77' of single 2" main is mostly uninsulated, but doesn't want to cover it because he doesn't want to loose that heat source in the basement. The first 30' of this header is pitched up hill, like a counter flow. The rest pitches back down to the 3' wet return. At 4 points along the main there are main vents. The small ones don't work , I think. The other two vent all the time, and one has a bucket to catch the water dripping from it.



The big issue is that this boiler over fills. Watching the site glass, the water level rises for the first 5 - 10 minutes of firing, then starts to drop until the feeder kicks in.



I found that the PA404 was way out of wack, so I put a vaporstat on set very low. I replaced the main  vent at the end of the main with a Gorton #2, and plugged the dripping one. I also found that the pitch on the downhill part of the main is minimal at best. I lowered the boiler as much as I could to get some pitch. The lack of insulation is causing a lot of condensing up there and the uphill run on the first part of the main must be holding a lot of condensate up there. It looks like that uphill run was there from day one.



I set the vaporstat to 6 oz cut out and 3 oz diff. Lower than I normally would, but I was trying to get the unit to cycle off so the condensate would have some more time to get back.



This boiler fires at 1.50 GPH. I can't get to the second floor apt to check all the EDR, so I'm not sure that the unit is over sized, but I believe it is. With the boiler hanging like that, you should see it shake when it's steaming. I skimmed it for about an hour and added surgemaster. Still pretty violent. Water spills over the top of the glass, but there isn't much room between the water line and the top, and it's pretty close to the riser. The riser is 4". Manufacturer calls for 3", but it is necked down at the header to 2".



Any other ideas, other than getting him to change the header and insulate? With the current main venting it takes 7 minutes to get the steam to the last vent. I think that's OK given the lack of insulation.

Unknown

"Bump"

Just going to give you a "Bump" to the top of the page. With a lot of posting, questions get dropped off the first page really quickly on the new Wall and people don't see them.

Paul Fredricks_3

Thanks Rod

Now you don't have to get me anything for Christmas

Jamie Hall

Sorry...

I didn't reply to this one because, honestly, I really didn't know where to begin!  Your customer really should insulate that main.  Yes, it does dump some heat into the basement.  However, in the process of doing so, it condenses a lot of steam in a completly uncontrolled manner.  It is much much better practice, if an insulated main doesn't provide enough heat (bet it will) to provide separate heat for the basement, such as a hydronic loop off the boiler.  Rather commonly done.



My initial thinking -- beyond that -- is that condensate is being held up, most likely in that main and associated piping, and that that is giving you a slow condensate return -- which would make the boiler behave as you say it does.  That plus what sounds like a high water line in the boiler -- most boilers like the steaming water line about half way up the glass, or a little lower -- so I'll be you are not only getting condensate in there, but a lot of just plain wet steam.



I'll think some more...

Paul Fredricks_3

I agree

I did discuss a base board loop with the owner, but all he was concerned with was getting to his brothers in a warmer climate and not returning for a few months.



The water line is what it is. Seems high to me to begin with, but that's where Slant Fin put it. And when it's steaming the water is climbing up toward the outlet, probably letting plenty of water up the riser, though the 4" riser may be letting at least some of it fall back down.



I also considered down firing the unit, which would involve a head change (fired at 1.25 at 140 PSI now) which the customer wasn't interested in dealing with at this time.



As I tell my guys all the time, you can't make anyone by anything.

Steamhead

That alleged "header" is a big part of the problem

reducing it to 2-inch like that increases the velocity so if water does make it up that far, it will carry into the mains. Here's a pic of what it should look like.



If the water gets out into the system, it's no longer in the boiler, and the LWCO sees this and activates the feeder.



The dirty water is also part of the problem, since it's more likely to be carried up the riser. You sure that riser is 4-inch? Looks like 3-inch to me.



All your main vent capacity should be at the end of the main. That way the last radiator benefits from all the vents getting the air completely out of the main. Add a second Gorton #2 to the very end and plug everything else.



And tell the guy he's already paying for you to fix that system, he's just not getting the benefit.

Paul Fredricks_3

Thanks Frank

Yeah that's pretty much where I'm at with this. Thought that looked more 4" than 3", but you're probably right.



My calc for the main came out to 1 Gorton #2. Not sure two would make a difference, especially since the steam is collapsing everywhere in that uninsulated main.



What I don't understand is that the other main vents have been there since day one, as was the 30' of main running up hill. Must have been done by a less than stellar dead man.



This customer is one of those rare ones. You know, the ones who don't care what you tell them, they have their mind made up so you might as well talk to the boiler.