Burnham Alpine

Brian Maffioli_2

Has anyone installed the Burnham Alpine yet.

Thinking about installing one, any opinions, comments or concerns.

Jfonto

Got alpine; Homeowner

I had an alpine installed in 2008. I switched from oil to gas. I'm saving about 45% to 50%, comparing btu fuel content, over 50 year old boiler w/modern burner. this boiler amazes me; it has about 1 gallon boiler capacity so it heats up very fast. I like it. I'll answer spcific question if you got some. 

Brian Maffioli_2

Burnham Apine

Thanks for responding. So.... no technical issues? Did the install seem like it was straight forward, you know stuff like that.

Jfonto

alpine

A little more complicated install than a regular boiler; it needs a loop through the boiler with a  circulator. This  eliminates hot spots in the boiler. then the loops to the baseboards run off that with their own circulators.

 I had only one issue with an error code; "return water temperature too high". It happened on the coldest day of the year and with the outdoor reset raising the  boiler water temp and I also have a zone on a too small cast iron radiator. It did shut down the boiler but it was easily reset and it hasn't happened again . I'm sure the installer would correct if it happens again.

 I have noticed that other manufacturers use the exact same stainless heat exchanger/burner and the Honeywell controls, so I would assume from that it's a proven design.

I like the outdoor reset in the spring and fall giving that gentler heat. but you could do that with any boiler.

Jfonto

alpine

OH yeah, I picked the Alpine because of the stainless heat exchanger some others had aluminum. I figured it would last longer. 

bob eck

alpine

burnham alpine boiler is a great boiler but also take a look at triangle tube prestige solo 95% AFUE boiler only or their prestige excellence PE110 95% AFUE boiler and indirect water heater all in one unit.



Triangle Tube boiler has a stainless steel heat exchanger plus outdoor reset control and it vents with three or four inch PVC pipe.



You can also get a 5 or 10 year parts and labor warranty so you can have your boiler covered for up to 10 years.



I just installed a PE110 in my house and so far I love it. Works great for heating and it delivers enough domestic hot water to run two showers at one time.



I have ALSONS 1.6 GPM shower heads instead of normal 2.5 GPM shower heads. Their 1.6 GPM shower head model 655c delivers only 1.6 GPM but it feels like you are still showering with a shower head delivering 2.5 GPM

Brian Maffioli_2

Burnham Alpine

How is everyone venting the Alpine? I know I would like to vent the intake and exaust separatly but kinda confused on the whole CPVC part they mention in the manual. Do you transition from CPVC to PVC?

Whats every one doing?

Serena

NYC Building rules and Exhaust issue with Alpine Boiler

I am converting from oil to gas and currently have no heat, no thanks to NYC building Dept. I bought an Alpine Boiler 210BTU and still waiting for my building permit to clear for installation. The problem with NYC building dept is that they do not approve side venting my exhaust because I need 10 feet of clearance from the neighbor's property. I really don't understand that because the proposed vent is coming out of my side wall into the neighbor's huge backyard that is not being used because it is a commercial property. I was told that the alternative would be to vent the new boiler through my chimney up the roof. I have a 3 story building and the chimney is at least 50 feet tall! Will this pose a problem with the proper operation of my Alpine boiler? Is there another alternative? BTW the fresh air venting intake is coming out of the sidewall.

Ifollowinstructions

Burnham Alpine longevity.

Hi All,



At the recent Burnham / Nationalgrid meetings to better inform our customers on what they are buying or not buying-- Burnham rep "Burnham Alpine with servicing every year will last beetween 12 and fifteen years" including but not limited to  proper combustion testing!  How many installers in this room have a combustion analyser?  3 out of 50...

In 10 years time who will get the blame? That's a tough one.

CMadatMe

And The Viessmann Contractor

Will say, The Vitodens 100 carries a lifetime warranty on its heat exchanger with a 30 year lifetime and for all not that much more money even after the Nat Grid guy gives you a Visa Gift Card...Sorry not attacking you, its just the monopoly ...

Robert O'Brien

Combustion testing?

Proper service? 3 out of 50 have analyzers? That means 94% have no business installing any boiler,condensing or otherwise! It's deplorable and a sad commentary on this industry!

CMadatMe

And The Sadder Part

Those contractors are getting jobs based on the perception that becuase they are affiliated with Nat Grid they are qualified installers.

Jean-David Beyer

Proper service? 3 out of 50 have analyzers?

And do those 3 know how to use them and interpret the results? I have run into technicians who will bring one with them if I insist, but do not seem to know how to use them. I am not a pro, and do not have one. But I have read the instruction manuals of three of them, and I am pretty sure I could get good measurements with a little practice. Knowing how to interpret the results, and knowing what to do about them if they are not right is another story.

j a_2

hold on

Gentlemen   I am an installer with the gas company...Comments such as I see here, by certain people, are very unjustified, in my opinion....Please refer, in private, to the ones involved and not people you don't even know or have meet....You guys, are not doing ,anyone any favors...I only speak for myself, and no one else...I would never list publicly what I see or hear out here, You never know what the real truth is...I have, at the age of 59 learned one thing...Stay focused, on what you are doing,.and unless its your job stay out of anyone else....Continue, to seek all the training you can, and be a kind and gentle person...You will be much happier....By  the way,  about  combustion analyzers...The basic stuff should have been taught in junior high science.....anyone can stick a probe in a hole and read and compare readings...Car mechanics have been doing it for years...When I purchased my two units I went to there training offered free by them and National Grid...Nat Grid demands we attend x amount of training per year to be on there list, otherwise they will drop you...as well they should....I know, for a fact, they follow up on us..Any training I get from the gas company is nothing but the best  ..Be Nice   ja

gennady

nat grid

I used to be on their coop program. Not anymore. Nat Grid is doing false advertising, attracting cheap customers falling for illusion of low boiler costs. As per installers qualifications, you tell me who is your customer, i will tell you what kind of contractor you are. There is a problem with P/S concept comprehending, and talking about gas analyzers is pushing bar too high. There good contractors and bad ones, But good ones are minority. As per Burnham Alpine i installed quite of few, and it is a very good boiler, and company is improving it all the time. it has standard gianoni heat exchanger, it is not better or worst compare to rest. I personally like its interface, it makes programming very easy.

Jean-David Beyer

anyone can stick a probe in a hole and read and compare readings

Then why don't they?

Tim McElwain

j a I am curious

who taught the classes on combustion at National Grid? Did they have hands on training using the analyzers?



As a former gas company instructor for 28 years myself along with pretty much all the rest of the trainers were let go by National Grid. These were folks who came up through the ranks and learned the business of gas from A to Z. I would imagine none of those folks are doing any teaching for NG.



I am sure you are a great technician and please do not mis understand what I am saying here. My experience is that many who are doing installations on equipment here in the Northeast are not very qualified in the areas of testing and setting up equipment correctly and in many instances are not familiar with proper installation procedures.

j a_2

Tim

Training was done by the owner of Wholler...We did it up at  a local supply house it was  a 4 hour class...They had a trailer all set up for hands on...It was sponsored by National Grid...I left the class feeling more confident...I could see if you did not have the basics you would have been lost...That is why I said anyone can stick a probe in a hole and read and compare...Understanding what and why is what is important.don't you think....I was a half time teacher at a local tech school...One of the first hands on I did when we moved on to gas and heating is visit this site every morning.and read...Then I took them out and introduced them to a new Burnham boiler donated by Burnham..and disassembled it piece by piece.bolt by bolt...Mystery solved, of what was under the hood...Then we moved onto controls I showed them a little green box with tell tale light emitting diodes on the side...that were red and green...one asked how it worked I told them PFM...To this day my old students and parents laugh when they see me...They soon found out what PFM was...PFM gone....mystery solved...I dont teach anymore, not enough students,long story....I got most of my education from being an airline mechanic..and boy has it helped since this industry has progressed into what it has...

      For me there is no better industry, I have meet so many nice people....By the way I left the airlines many years ago  I will not fly....ja

CMadatMe

Start Up

I think the start up of a system is less important then the sizing and installation. An installer that is sizing and installing properly is the guy that's proably already doing the combustion test. The guy without the analyzer is the same guy that doesn't own a heat loss program or can tell you how to figure out zone gpm to calculate a heating curved based on the existing radiation.



Curious as to the definition of continuing education?

j a_2

so

As i understand it, you feel start up is less important than sizing and installation...I always thought start up, was part of the installation...Any chance you can elaborate on that one...ja

CMadatMe

Simple

An oversized boiler can be started up and adjusted with an analyzer but its still an oversized boiler and you haven't done the customer justice. Plus that setting is great for the conditions on the day you set it up what happens after that? That's why you are seeing HTP for instance coming out with adaptive combustion in their new condensing boiler and why Viessmann has been doing it since 2005 across the pond and 2007 here on Vitodens 200.



I'll take a proberly sized and designed system ten fold over an oversized and poorly designed system set up with a combustion analyzer. Like I said the installer that is doing his homework is the guy who is using the analyzer.

R Mannino

I Have an Analyzer

AND I know how to use it. Sizing the system is main key to efficiency.

j a_2

COMPLETE JOB

I agree, if you are the one selling and installing the product you must size it correctly..that's, a  no brainer...So many systems are over sized...such a huge waste,don't you think....I think people, self included, if faced with the choice of over size rather than under size, comfort being the priority when sizing , will go over.  I like the Rinnai and HTP products as well...Parts availability is very important to me, should one fail..I also support my supply house, as well.....lucky for me my supply house sells top name equipment  only ..I don't get out of the basements to often to talk to many other people Was wondering what brand analyzer you use and why..do you like the printer option and the memory storage?  Also what reading do you feel is most important and at why? Sorry for the questions...I use two different analyzes and a little bit of common sense...

R Mannino

I Have a UEI

probably not the best, but it works.



CO is the most important, period. Manufacturers spec, second.



I like the Vitodens 100, in my market a go to Mod/Con gas boiler for both sizing and simplicity.

j a_2

nice

What a nice install , that shows pride...in your work..Hopefully its in a man-town and you get more work out of it...when his buddies see it..Best of luck...Steamer next week then mod/cons for the next few...What a business, its great isn't it...ja

Roland_18

How long???

"Burnham Alpine with servicing every year will last beetween 12 and fifteen years" including but not limited to  proper combustion testing!"

I'm still a bit uneasy about the projected longevity of mod/cons. I guess I'm just so last century.

Roland..................

Ifollowinstructions

Bigger is better!

Combustion analysing for the Burnham Alpine is needed because they rumble and shake when they are out of the box / new, low fire or high fire. Call Burnham they blame us for not setting the boiler with our combustion analyser.  We sit there and turn a little screw on the front of the boiler until it stops. The reason why I post this is because a new boiler should not need this... every other 3 installed.  No matter how you size a boiler- this problem will never change.  Burnham should learn customer service and stop treating us guys who make them a fortune like idiots, Thanks Nationalgrid.



Plus because you can buy a boiler through Nationalgrid oil to gas conversion program---home owners want the bigger boiler for a extra $200. Good guys lose jobs, You can never go wrong with the V8

Ifollowinstructions

follow up

You seem like of those guys who stop at all rail road signs or every intersection. Corporate brain washing seems to be the way forward. eg, put lots of bleach in your toilet- we might  die eating our dinner!   God bless America.

Ifollowinstructions

Boiler sizing...^

A boiler is over-sized 98% of the year.  When it hits 0 degrees out- it works a little harder for maybe 48 hours.   A over sized condensing boiler will never condense! (87% efficiency with a little baseboard loop) When I say I lose jobs...some guy walks in and back stabs the good guy, he tells the homeowner you need a bigger boiler, Nationalgrid is selling the bigger one for $200 more, homeowner...due to greed/stupidity wants the bigger boiler, makes  good guys looks stupid!   No one in America ever complains about their boiler being to small!

I will stick with my 1968 Peerless millivolt boiler I have in my basement for now.    When my wife calls me complaining about  no heat, I can go home and fix in 10 minutes. 

Ifollowinstructions

Boiler sizing...^

A boiler is over-sized 98% of the year.  When it hits 0 degrees out- it works a little harder for maybe 48 hours.   A over sized condensing boiler will never condense! (87% efficiency with a little baseboard loop) When I say I lose jobs...some guy walks in and back stabs the good guy, he tells the homeowner you need a bigger boiler, Nationalgrid is selling the bigger one for $200 more, homeowner...due to greed/stupidity wants the bigger boiler, makes  good guys looks stupid!   No one in America ever complains about their boiler being to small!

I will stick with my 1968 Peerless millivolt boiler I have in my basement for now.    When my wife calls me complaining about  no heat, I can go home and fix in 10 minutes. 

Ifollowinstructions

when your kids hit high school!

You replace a 60 year old American Standard oil/gas boiler ,( by the way they seem to be the best lasting boiler of all time) you install Burnham Alpine 105, in 12 years when the boiler is junk:;  you call Burnham with a question...WHY!  Its the way...your need a new roof, new paint job, new car, new siding, new gutters, new fence, last but not least a new Burnham Alpiine....

Robert O'Brien

ifollowinstructions

A

Robert O'Brien

ifollowinstructions

A over sized condensing boiler will never condense! (87% efficiency with a little baseboard loop)

The size of the boiler has nothing to do with whether it condenses or not,strictly a function of water temp http://72.3.142.104/files/posts/7323/Condensing Boiler and Baseboard.pdf

Robert O'Brien

ifollowinstructions

A

Robert O'Brien

ifollowinstructions

A

Robert O'Brien

ifollowinstructions

A over sized condensing boiler will never condense! (87% efficiency with a little baseboard loop)

The size of the boiler has nothing to do with whether it condenses or not,strictly a function of water temp http://72.3.142.104/files/posts/7323/Condensing Boiler and Baseboard.pdf

Robert O'Brien

ifollowinstructions

A

BobC

TCO?

I wonder what the total cost of ownership over 20 years is for these new boilers vs a modern cast iron boiler with outdoor reset?



I'm in the process of replacing a 16 yr old oil fired cast iron boiler not because of the boiler but because the oil tank is at the end of it's life - and natural gas is so much cheaper. I just can't see myself putting in a new tank with natural gas available. That boiler had one service call in 16 years, it did get cleaned out every year and the tech said the boiler was in good shape last year. Before I retired I used to have to go out of state for weeks at a time for training. A neighbor kept an eye on the house and fed the animals daily, she had the number of the service company I used and there was never an issue with the heating system.



It takes time to work all the bugs out of new systems and now with the practice of outsourcing components it may be more problematic because you can't just go down the hall and talk over a components failure with a coworker. Talking on the phone is not the same as looking someone in the eye and KNOWING you are on the same team. Outsourcing can be great for pricing but not so good for reliability and quick response to possible design or reliability problems.



I'm sure these new systems will be very good after all the bugs are worked out but I suspect that the early adopters of this newer technology are paying for that privilege.



just my opinion,



Bob

gennady

yearly adopters?

Mod con boilers are on the market for over 25 years in Europe, where gas cost 3 -4 times over US prices, and over 10 years in USA. Mod cons are here for a reason, they are just better boilers and extremely efficient when done right. You don't go to the appliance store asking for tube TV set. Why would you settle for 50-70 year old boiler design? Savings from installing mod con over your existing oil fired boiler will pay for installation within 3-7 years. so in 3-7 years savings will be equal to cost of new boiler.

Need_Help

Alpine Gas Boiler #ALP-210F

The Alpine Boiler was installed in 2010 from American Standard Iron Cast Gas boiler. The new alpine boiler stops working at least once a day in winter time (under 32 degree) and it rumbles and shakes day and night even in spring season. The installers, Northwest Climate Controls, can't control the problems. They just took the repair fee and the problem never fixed. Anyone can help us?

Harvey Ramer

Alpine

Does it still keep the house warm when it's really cold outside? What kind of emitters do you have, baseboard, radiators, etc.. ? Could you take some pictures and post them?



Harvey