Dangerous Pressure?

Johnny13

I have been in my building (a 2 flat) for 2 years, but the first year was at the end of heating season, and the next we did not run the system because we had to remove the second floor radiators to get some renovation done, so this is the first year I have really had to care for a boiler.



I just finished reading We Got Steam Heat, and I am concerned by my situation (see first picture). Is that reading 21psi, or is it some weird reading of 2.1psi? I don't see how it can be so high, if the emergency valve should pop at 15psi. I pulled on that, and it did not really do anything.



The system is heating well, and it is comfortable in here. We had a guy come and reinstall the radiators last week, and check things over. He was here for about 4 hours, cleaning things and replacing the thermo coupling. During the time he was here I remember the gauge being at 5, but it was just getting started. I also remember it reading 25 that first year we bought the place. I have turned the pressuretrol down to .5 and 1. That was 3 hours ago, and the reading has not changed. It may be a touch quieter, but I did not think it was loud before. occasional soft pings, slight ticking, and a gentle hiss now and again.



Also, I am not sure about the main vents. I believe they ate the green bits in the second picture. I walked the entire run, and they are the only bits that stick up. Nothing looks plugged, since all the elbows are smooth and round. I really hope to learn this, and I hope my concerns are overblown. I appreciate any advice you might pass along.



Having trouble posting, so I will try this without the pictures, and put them up in the next post if that works.

jpf321

doesn't sound right...

can you send a close up picture of your pressure gauge? when it reads 21psi

does the pressure return to 0 when the fire goes off? how long does it take?

does your system ever shut off base on pressure? (t-stat still requires heat, water is visible in gauge but fire goes off)

do you have a pigtail before the pressuretrol? before the gauge?

send pictures of p-trol and gauge and how they are attached to boiler if you can.



FYI, you can post pictures on a public sharing site such as picasaweb.com or flickr.com and we can have a look.

Johnny13

Pictures

http://www.flickr.com/photos/john13/4191433689/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/john13/4192203186/in/photostream/



There they are. Sorry if you have to copy the URLs. I could not get them to upload.

Johnny13

Additional info

The pressure does not seem to change much at all between the heating cycles. It was at 0 before the radiators were put back in, and I saw it at 5 when the heating guy was here.



There seems to be a pilot light that is always on. The big burn kicks on every once in awhile, tho I don't know how often that is.  There is water in the glass tube. It bounces a little when the fire is burning, but nothing violent. It is comfortable in here. The larger radiators about about half heated. The tiny ones all the way. Set to 65º on the second floor where the thermostat is. Reading at 70º here on the first floor. One pipe system. Gas heated Peerless Cast Iron boiler. Sticker on it says it was installed in 96.

jpf321

yeah that says 21 alright...

i would say shut it down. it does show to be dangerously high .. however, if your safety isn't blasting steam (even when you pull it) it could be a bad gauge .. when I moved into this house .. i had an antique "internal siphon" gauge that was stuck on 5psi. I switched it out in a hurry.



most plumbing houses have replacement 0-30psi 1/4" bottom mount gauges in stock. you will also want to get a 1/4" 90deg red brass pigtail (picture: http://www.trentonpipe.com/pricelist_Syphons08S3_2pgs.pdf)  while you are there to mount the gauge, and some teflon tape. the gauge should probably be 1/4" FPT.. it would help if you take the old one with you to the plumbing supply store.



many folks on here direct people towards the gauges at gaugestore.com for low pressure gauges (but you still need the 0-30 for building code as well.) but you don't need to get a lower pressure gauge until you resolve your 21psi problem.



you didn't say whether the gauge returns to 0 with no fire? and within what timeframe?

jpf321

put back in???

describe what you mean when you are saying rad were put back in?

it could be that working on the system dislodged some big chunks of crud or oil that have fouled your gauge. if it doesn't return to 0 or start heading downward when the fire is out for a few minutes, then I would suspect a bad gauge. the system should likely never read above 2 and you might not even see it above 1. if you have 1pipe steam, i don't think you have need for a "vacuum" (less than 0) gauge such as what you have. a standard 0-30 will be fine. and you don't need such a big one .. 2.5in diameter face should be fine. have a look at my gauges in my pics. (see link in sig)

jpf321

another pressure gauge/control layout on a peerless

check out nbc's post here with a pic to his pressure layout on a peerless unit:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/128365/Looking-for-a-Steam-Pro-for-site-survey-visit#p1182012

Johnny13

I just turned it off.

It took about 2 minutes for it to drop from 21psi to 20psi.



I tried the emergency valve again. it has a lot of play, and is not sticky, but there was not a hint of release.



I had the company that had a sticker on the boiler come out and disconnect the radiators from our second floor so we could get the walls skimcoated, and the floors sanded. Sent the radiators out to be sandblasted and repainted. The were disconnected from October 08 to Tuesday before last.



I think the pressure was this high when we first moved in, because I made a mental note of it since I assumed the settings would be right, and I wanted to know the baselines.



The company that took the radiators out, seemed totally confused by my request that they come and put them back in, and give the boiler a seasonal check, so I called a different company that I saw recommended on an old house weblog. They were very nice, and I liked the guy, and it was really really nice to have some heat.



Shortly after the guy left the heat went out. It took me awhile, and he came back, but could not figure out the problem other than to say he thought the thermostat was bad. The original thermostat was a mercury round Honeywell. I had replaced that with a current heat only round Honeywell, but I could not make it work. I read about Millivolt Thermostats, and that has been working for us. I only mention it in the unlikely event that there could be a connection.



Again, I appreciate your input.

Johnny13

Re: NBC

That picture is beautiful for more than one reason. I am interested in getting hands on, but at the moment I am in a bit over my head. In the last week I have spent over $500 on service, and am sitting 5' above a bomb.



Until I can get this worked out, can I manually turn the system on and off and mind the pressure?

Johnny13

Dropping

Pressure is down to 17psi now. Been about 10 - 15 minutes I think .

jpf321

let's see how far it drops...

i'm curious to see how far the pressure drops ..

you can manually control the boiler as long as you mind the pressure. fyi, i'm uncomfortable for safety reasons at anything over 5psi. and that is too much for steam system anyhow. but let's see how low it will go.



if it stops dropping for "some length of time", it probably won't go any lower ..



where r u located by the way?

Johnny13

At least I have specific things to request of the heating tech now.

It is down to 14psi now.



I am on the NW side of Chicago, within the city.

jpf321

if you need service ....

have a look at these guys as I think you may be in his service area .. http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/105/Boiler-Professionals-Inc



and you can read some of Dave's posts:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum/profile/80732/Boilerpro



at the very least, maybe he can recommend someone to call.



PSI still dropping?

jpf321

another thought ..

if the gauge does get all the way back to 0 .. then perhaps you have a clogged pigtail under your pressuretrol. this may cause the p-trol to not sense the true system pressure and therefore never shutdown the boiler. if you are a handy guy, you should be able, with the boiler electricity power shut OFF and the boiler shutdown for some time so there is no live steam in the system, manage to get the p-trol off the pigtail and perhaps even the pigtail off the boiler for examination.



AND if it gets down to 0 .. you should replace your safety pop and unclog it if need be.



i'm just still curious how you had 2 pieces of safety equipment fail -- the p-trol and the safety release... that's scarey... but while you are waiting to pass the time you can read this .. http://www.heatinghelp.com/article-categories/120/Boiler-Explosions

Johnny13

More

Down to 11psi now.



I look at the pigtail, and I have no idea how it got on there. I don't mind working on things, but I worry about making things worse when I know so little. Does the pig tail just compress a bit when you twist it out?



The fire definitely cycles, it is not always on.



I was assuming that air was not exiting the system fast enough. The 2nd floor radiators all have new vents, tho possibly of a poorer quality than I should have gone with. The first floor vents are old, but I did not feel it took much effort to blow thru them. 2 are adjustable, and I opened them all the way up to let the air out.



What I think are the main vents in the basement are both really close to the boiler.



Seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/john13/4192349712/

jpf321

removing pigtail...

to get mine out I needed to first unwire the p-trol so that i could unscrew the p-trol. and then unscrew the pigtail. i probably shouldn't have, but i took the handle of a screwdriver and stuck it in the curled part of the pigtail and gently turned. when you are putting things back together...use a pipe-union (like this http://www.amazon.com/Industrial-Grade-1LBR8-Union-Malleable/dp/B001GBNV0S) between the ptrol and the pigtail (see my pics) .. you will also need a short nipple from the union to the p-trol .. all 1/4" NPT... if you use the pipe union on the reconnection, you won't have to undo the wiring next time. 

jpf321

vent?

you've got me .. someone else is going to have to ID this thing

jpf321

fire cycle

the fire is probably cycling due to the t-stat and not the p-trol. your t-stat sense temperature .. as your rooms cool, the t-stat tells fire to start... once they warm .. it tells fire to stop .. well the p-trol sense the system pressure .. when the pressure rises to, normally, 1.5psi it tells the fire to stop .. when pressure drops to 0.5psi it "allows" the fire to start again .. whether the fire WILL start again is usually up to the t-stat. 

Johnny13

Perhaps I will not die tonight.

It is down to 8.5psi. Thank you once again for all your advice and company. I dug out one of the space heaters since the temperature is already starting to drop in here. I have to get some sleep, or I am going to be wrecked tomorrow. Best to you.



I am so pleased to have encountered the book, and by extension this forum. I would very much like to be one of the people helping out with the advice as soon as possible.

jpf321

normal venting procedures...

as Dan explained in his book .. the vent's job is to allow air to escape during initial heating and CLOSE once the steam gets to them.. only then shoudl your pressure begin to build...when the fire goes off .. and the radiator/vent begins to cool .. the vents OPEN back up to allow fresh air into the system .. and they ARE SUPPOSED to do that all the time during and after a heating cycle



 .. t-stat says send heat

... vents allow air out

...  vents get hot

 .. vents close

.. *system builds pressure (upto 2psi)*

.. p-trol shuts off  fire on pressure limit

... fire out

.. system cools

.. vents open

.. p-trol resets itself on low pressure

.. if t-stat still wants heat

.. begin again.

Johnny13

Redux

Both of those possible vents are in this picture from before



http://www.flickr.com/photos/john13/4192203186/in/photostream/



Nothing else resembling a vent is in the basement.

jpf321

g'night

be careful about what you wish for .. i only started here back in october I think .. 



do give boilerpro a shout .. it sounds like you need a pro's help .. especially for a danger situation like this one... I hear he's one of the best around



jpf

jpf321

pipe union

i realize that I sent you a link to a very expensive pipe union .. here is one for much less money that would work just fine .. http://www.amazon.com/Mueller-521-701HC-Muellar-Black-Union/dp/B000BQYGQM ..your local source might even be cheaper. 

Johnny13

Morning report

The gauge dropped to just below 0psi. I went and turned on the thermostat to 10º above room temperature, and let it run til I hit 5psi. About 5 minutes, then I ran an turned the thermostat down. Then I went back to look, and the boiler had jumped to 15psi. No discernible heat on the first floor, tho the radiators  no longer feel iron cold either. Body temperature. Second floor about the same, tho a bit cooler.

Johnny13

Ugh.

Topped out at 21.5psi, and has now started to drop again. I did not know it could build up that quickly. 

Johnny13

Not sure if it is related.

The water level has been consistent since I have been paying attention, but it is resting about 1/3 of the way up the tube, and old film makes it look like it used to be around a bit more than half way up.

David Nadle

Doubting the gauge

Johnny, I have trouble believing that gauge. At 21 psi I imagine your radiator vents would be screaming.

Your pressuretrol cut-in should probably be as low as it can go, 0.5 PSI, and you need to open the case to access the additive differential wheel, which should be set to 1. You would then cut out at 1.5 PSI.

You can get an independent measurement of pressure with a length of flexible plastic tubing and a yardstick. Get an appropriate barbed hose fitting to connect one end of the tubing to some threaded lower drain tap on the boiler, and hang the other end close to the ceiling. Hang it far enough away from the drain so that you can easily access the tap to shut it off without being under the opening. Open the tap and tape the yardstick to the tubing, aligning the zero to where the waterline rests in the tubing.

Fire the boiler and watch carefully. The water column will rise 28" per psi. In addition to checking the gauge, you can check the pressuretrol. If you don't cut out near 1.5 psi, The pressuretrol may be faulty or the pigtail may be clogged.

Obviously, you can't leave this manometer rig unattended with the tap open. Another bit of adivce, choose a tap that you open on a regular basis to drain water. Don't choose a tap that hasn't been opened in years.

P.S. Try to find the installer guide for that boiler and compare the recommended near boiler piping to what you've got. Does the heat work well? Any banging or hissing?

Johnny13

An hour later

I sort of feeling/hoping it is a bad gauge. The pressure reading has dropped to just over 10psi in the last hour.



Leastwise I am hoping that it is more likely operating in safe tolerances with a bad gauge, rather than 2 safety devices failing. I am also wondering if a system so over pressurized would not be sounding much worse than mine has this past week. I know these systems when running properly are quiet, but I don't know if that is reasonably quiet, or completely silent.



The pressure at the radiator vents does not seem to be urgent, and there was no noise at all from this morning's rapid build up of pressure.



Edit: I was still writing this when David posted. The system was overall pretty quiet. I have not gotten the impression that the boiler was straining. For the last week the heat was working extremely well. Very comfortable. I had no complaint until I saw that death was near.

Johnny13

Sorry to keep bumping my own thread up.

If the gauge is faulty, and the boiler is actually running within a safe tolerance with the pressuretrol set to .5 and 1, would tripping the emergency valve have any visible effect? Like I said, the operation is smooth when I unseat the valve, but nothing happens. Not a hiss or vibration, and no visible steam. Does that mean it is bad, or would you not expect anything at safe pressure?

lutorm

I'm betting a bad gauge

This does sound kind of like my neighbors gauge, which was showing 23psi and caused quite some alarm here, but just turned out to be faulty.



But yes, anytime there's the slightest amount of pressure (if the header is hot) you should hear (and see) steam come out if you pull the relief valve. It's unambiguous even at 0.1psi for me. If the pressure is 1.5psi it's quite loud, and at 20psi I assume it would be scary loud with a huge steam cloud enveloping you. (Don't stand near the vent when you do it, and make sure it has a pipe directing the steam away from you and down towards the floor.)



So it nothing's happening, I bet the relief is clogged up too. Or just bad. Go get a new one.  I just changed mine (who knows when they were changed, and it was full of mud. As was that pigtail.

jpf321

good morning ..

good morning Johnny .. glad to see some others have jumped in .. no your pressure shouldn't jump that quickly... although I have a very old inefficient boiler .. to give you some idea, my pressure builds to about 0.5psi after about 45mins of fire. i can't imagine how long i would need to get above 10psi.



i have never pulled my relief with pressure of any sort on, so i can't answer your question but it looks like lutorm did.



david has a good idea to rig up a manometer with some clear tubing .. i've seen a picture of this set-up before i'll see if I can find it, or maybe someone else can reference it...

David Nadle

Manometer

Here ya go...

nicholas bonham-carter

the nail in the tire

this problem is like the nail sticking out of your tire, you suddenly see 2 days before a big road trip across the desert. you don't know how long it has been like that, but it is certainly time to fix it!  like many steam projects, this one could be a do-it-yourself project.

if i were you i would get my favorite low pressure gauges: [gaugestore.com 0-3 psi] and have the pair of gauges together on the same pigtail, as the original 0-30 psi, so i would know what was happening pressure-wise

unfortunately the pressure relief valve will often begin to leak if opened, so i leave it alone.--nbc

Johnny13

Service called

Thank you very much for the picture since I could not quite imagine it.



Based on the certainty of the emergency valve having failed, and the probability of the gauge being bad, and my own lack of time/concern about messing it up, I called in the same heating guy that brought the system back on last week. I looked over the invoice checklist, and nothing looks too bad. I would hope he would have noticed the gauge, and I wish he would have said something. There is no check box for checking the emergency valve. He makes note of the cut in and out settings, but I don't know if that is what they were, or what he set them to. They are marked as cut in 2 cut out 3. I currently have them turned down. My faith is not yet shaken in their work, but I am going to keep the communication a bit tighter now, and am having the guy call me once he is there so I can tell him my concerns.



I am at the point where I don't trust anything below the waterline, and none of the spigots have been opened for the last 3 years as far as I know. I like the look of the hose test, and admire the real world science in action, but I fear I would not get it closed again.



Very much hoping to have heat tonight.

jpf321

gauge first...

the first this to look at is the gauge .. if the gauge was fouled .. it could be that nothing else was wrong. your saftey pop valve could be perfectly fine and the p-trol could be perfectly fine, including the pigtail being clear. this is why David suggested rigging a "visual gauge" such as is shown in the picture. there are no mechanical mechanisms to the tubing rig, it can't be wrong. you need to be able to open and close various below-waterline valves .. so it should be addressed.



good luck, let us know.

David Nadle

Manometers optional...

Johnny, that gauge is generally required by code to be installed and to have a range of twice the limit of the pop safety valve, or 30 psi. When it works it basically never moves and is useless as an operating pressure indicator. I suppose your guy should have caught it but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't even look at it.

You're going to want to periodically drain some dirty water from the boiler and replace it with fresh, so it'd be good to identify a drain tap you can use today and make sure it can be opened and closed again without leaking.

The gauge must be replaced for safety's sake, and the pop safety tested and/or replaced. Since you had good quiet heat before this I bet everything else is fine. Try to keep the cut-in of 0.5 psi and differential of 1. It will save you some money.

Johnny13

Service on site

I just talked to the technician. I still like him/them, but I the conversation did

not entirely go the way I wanted it to. He says they are looking for a

suitable replacement gauge, but really downplayed the need for it, which does not sound so bad in light of the last couple of posts. He told me that he cleaned the pigtail to

the pressuretrol and tested it last time, and that it is in working

order. He is saying that the emergency valve is good, and that I should

not expect to see anything at the low pressure we are running. This

does not feel right, but I don't know how to argue the point except

from the 'I read a book yesterday!' POV, which seems petulant to me.

The green things are vents. The water level is fine, even if it used to

be higher.



I like the company, and they have been extremely attentive, and I am happy to have my concerns return to being insulating the pipe elbows. I will get me a hose for the future, and test the under water spigot. You guys have been great, Many thanks.

jpf321

so all is well...gauge is bad

As per my last post, I'm not surprised that the safety and p-trol/pigtail are good but I'm glad you had it checked.



As I mentioned last night, any 0-30psi gauge should be fine. If you get a 1/4" M/M 90deg pigtail and a bottom mount 1/4" FPT 0-30 gauge, these should be commonly available items at plumbing supply houses (not Home Depot or Lowes). And really shouldn't set you back more that $20-$30 or so for these 2 parts combined.



good luck.

Johnny13

draining

I should say that I know to drain the fouled water on a  weekly basis, and have done that when the system was running since we purchased the place. I did not know that I could hook the hose up to that connection. There is a spigot lower on the tank, and it looks pretty unused. 

jpf321

if you have hose threads...

if the drain spigot that you normally use has hose threads .. then all you need is a "hose barb" and some plastic tubing .. both available at Home Depot or Lowes. Just make sure you get standard garden hose female (FHT) barb and that the barb fits properly in the plastic tubing (inner diameter  (I.D.) of tubing = out diameter (O.D.) of barb)

Steamhead

Those vents

are Dole #4, and are almost certainly too small. Measure the length and diameter of your steam mains and we can tell you what's needed.