Water surge, low, refill, repeat, overflow....

Peter Means

I'm a homeowner and I generalyl know there is a problem when the rad vents start hissing and sometimes even have bubbles coming out. I go down and check the sight glass to find it's completely full, I empty out 4,  5 gallon buckets of water from the LWCO, and all is well with the world for a month or 2. This has been happening for the last 3 years.



This year that happened, and I did the above, then a few weeks later, I must have missed the warning signs as the basement was flooded with 3 inches of water. I couldn't really see were the water was coming from, but lots of the near piping was wet all the way up to the returns and the main vents, I have there just before it drops back down. So the whole system was flooded. Nothing came out the rad vents....



I called  a service tech, we drained the water, and got it back to normal operation again. It was the weekend, so he came back during the week and cleaned the LWCO, cleaned the pigtail, and flushed the system with 8-way cleaner. He also noticed that the PSI trol wasn't working properly. I wasn't there then, and he is going to quote me a new one.



So here's where it gets interesting and where I actually got to see more of what's happening before it floods, tonight I saw it. It doesn't do it often, so I don't usually catch it. Here's what's happening from the sight glass, tell me what you think.



1. I came down as pipes were expanding, traps flittering, and vents hissing/bubbling.

2. I found the sight glass had boiling bubbling in the top of it (see attached photo)

3. The burner was short cycling on and off every 30 seconds or so.

4. I don't remember if the water level was going up or down during the bubbling...

5. I decided to flush the LWCO, and emptied 2, 5 gallon buckets to get the water level back down.

6. As the boiler fired, the water would bounce about an inch either way, but go all the way down, to about an inch to the bottom of the glass, then the automatic water feeder would kick in for 10 seconds, and shut off. The water came back up,

 7. The the cycle would repeat itself, bouncing, but going down until it tripped the AWF.

8. Fills again, and it did this until when the system stopped firing (thermostat upstairs stopped calling), the sight glass gradually, raised until completely fulled/flooded.



So I've never seen that boiling/bubbling thing before.... But anyway, a tech is coming again tom. But it seems to me that either there is a vacuum, or some reason the water is getting pulled up in boiler (perhaps unevenly?) or into the risers, and up, thus water in LWCO gets low and AWF kicks in. When the system shuts off, the water in the returns comes back and then floods of course. Or perhaps the water isn't coming back in the returns properly in the first place.



I do know that the piping is wrong above the boiler, and I think I figured out before that the header pipe (is that what it is called?) may be undersized.... Whoooaaa that's a lot, but anything that can help me and the tech would be great, as I've sunk a bunch of money already into to trying to get this system to work over the years. We've lived here 5 years, and had problems every year but maybe not during the first year. The boiler is about 10 years old? The pipes, who knows.... House was built in 1909...



Thanks in advance, and hopefully there's still a place here to throw some bricks in the wall. I have 2 of the books, and I found them to be page turners. Unfortunately I let the tech borrow them last time he was here. I think Dan had a section on flooding... Photos attached.--Peter

Al Letellier_21

steamer issues

so many issues, so little time:

First of all, the foaming is due to too much 8 Way. I use this product a lot and if the stuff is foaming and bubbling, too much was added into the boiler.

Hard to see the piping arrangement, but certainly improper near boiler piping will create problems.

Next, get rid of that feeder. McDonnell Miller makes great stuff but I think that this feeder should be eliminated. It responds only to a dropping float and doesn't give a hoot how much water is out in the system waiting to come back. Install an electronic feeder like the Hydrolevel 450. You can program it to wait before adding water. This can give the system condensate time to return to the boiler.

Check those main vents to be sure they are working properly. Good luck and let us know how you make out. Hard to tell what else may ail your system when not there to see first hand but these are certainly some issue that need addressing

Charlie from wmass

Could be a leaking tankless coil.

Could also be a leaking ball valve on the feed line.

Peter Means

Thanks.

Thanks guys, will check into all of these items. Specially the feeder... When the system flooded the basement, and we drained it, water all of a sudden shot out all 4 main vents. So I know they were open, maybe clogged now, will check.  As far as the piping, I know that above the boiler the big line up to the mains, should be located between the equalizer and the right hand riser (is that what it's called). Anyway, it shouldn't be where it is, and I believe could make for wet steam and maybe even pulling boiling water up it? Also all that rust on the pipes is new from the overflow, making it look much worse than it was before. Thanks--Peter

Charlie from wmass

Check the check valve also

I just noticed in the photo of the LWCO that it looks like a swing check on the return. If this is hung up it could hold the steam up in the returns and trigger the feeder.

Peter Means

Good thought

When the tech was out we opened that up, not knowing really how it worked, but assumed is was a check valve. Inside is a swinging type thing, which moved freely. Not sure what the screw on the outside does.--Peter

Steamhead

A Smith 8-series boiler like you have

should be piped like the one in Charlie's pic, or this one. The improper piping on yours is aggravating the problem but is probably not the root cause.



I think Al nailed it. The water is dirty, perhaps from too much chemical, perhaps not. I've seen 8-series boilers do this just because the water had gotten really dirty. A good flushing and skimming is the cure.



And BTW, current-model 8-series boilers generally come with probe-type LWCO units. These are much more reliable than the #67 on yours. If your boiler has the proper tapping for a probe unit, I'd make the switch.

Peter Means

wow

That is a thing of beauty. Almost doesn't look like the same boiler. Drop header (do I have that name right?), very nice indeed. A bit hard for me to follow the pipes in the picture. I know for sure with mine, almost none of the piping was redone when they put my boiler in (the previous homeowners). The loop and returns, and concrete pad all show the footprint of what was the original boiler. I really would would like to get mine all up to snuff, so that it works well, and two because I enjoy steam heat systems. Sounds odd as I'm just a Joe homeowner, but I truely enjoyed (and need to reread) Dan's books. I hate to see a machine not up to what it could/should be.... Thanks!--Peter

Peter Means

and

my main vertical pipe up, Ts to the 2 mains. I believe that's called a "bull-T" and not so good either. I need to get my Dan books back

Peter Means

UPDATE and Possible Success!

Tech (what should I call him?) came this morning. Opened up the LWCO fully, which unfortunately, I didn't get to see, but he said it was full of sludge. I blow it down weekly in the heating season (for a few seconds until clean), maybe there was sludge from the recent 8 way? Anyway, he cleaned it out and so far no issues today. Time will tell how long it will lasts, but I was a bit surprised to find it was as simple as this. Good stuff. If this works out for a while, then goes bad again in a few months, do you think I can assume it's the LWCO that gives issues and see if switching to the electronic unit would work better? Thanks all!--Peter

Jamie Hall

Blowdown procedure

It has been my experience that blowing down a McDonnell Miller float type LWCO / autofill is not quite as simple as it looks.  To really get to 'clean', a few seconds isn't going to do it   Instead, when it first looks cleaner (your few seconds) stop blowing it down, let things stabilize a minute -- then do it again.  And repeat, until the first flush when you open the valve is reasonably clean (doesn't have to be drinkable, but you shouldn't be able to walk on it, either).  The building I supervise I do that once a month...

Peter Means

thanks

Thanks very much, I'll give that a try.--Peter

Peter Means

UPDATE: It's back...

Work up this morning to the same original problem. Was good for a while there, could there really be more sludge in the LWCO? Well I'll call the tech again... Any ideas? Thanks.