convert a steam boiler into a hot water boiler

Brian_19

Yes you read right the first time "NO Problems". Just because you choose not to do these conversions does not mean that they can't work.
I have done several replacements with Mod-con boilers that work great. They heat well, save money, and limitless zoning.
Keep in mind I have no problem with a good steam system, they do work well. However, it does get very costly when you have to change boiler, retun piping, all vents, and any problems with steam mains. There are thousands of steam to hot water conversions out there so please stop trying to scare everyone who is thinking of this.
ALso, stop with sarcastic "have a good lawyer" crap. If you don't want to do these installs then don't, but don't get bent out of shape because myself and other pro's perform these installs well with NO problems.

ducky

i am looking to convert my 22 year old slantfin steam boiler into a hot water boiler and was wondering what exactly would be invoved. i am more than likely going to run new piping to the existing rads or baseboards, but i am really interested in what repiping and controls need to changed at the boiler itself. thank you for your input.
ducky

Jamie Hall

say what?

far as I know, they are two very different critters... is there a reason for keeping the old one and not getting a nice new high eff. unit?

Unknown

ducky

Let me start by asking this,,,,
Why do you want to convert?
Steam is a fantastic heating medium IF PROPERLY MAINTAINED.
Has your system been neglected??,, get-in line as MOST have, but conversion may not be the answer.
Your existing steam system may be able to be fixed-up reasonably with the right steam pro. :-)

Dave

Steamhead (in transit)

And if that's not all

your existing steam radiation may not work with hot-water at all. And if it does, the vastly increased hot-water operating pressure may find weak spots and cause leaks.

My company does not recommend or perform conversions of steam systems to hot-water. Period. Too many things can go wrong.

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ducky

more info

the steam system works great but i am looking to finish my basement and all of the mains are hanging below the joists and the returns are running along the floor near the foundation walls where my framing wants to go. i was looking to dormer my house in a about 3 years and wanted to wait to change the boiler until then, so as not to have an oversized boiler between now and then. thanks again for all of the responses

Steamhead (in transit)

It is possible

to run your steam main tight against the ceiling and dead level- IF you take off each radiator runout from the bottom (from which point you can elbow over immediately and not use but a little headroom) pitch them down slightly toward the risers and drip each riser to the wet return. You could probably do this with the existing main by disconnecting it and repositioning it.

The wet return itself can be slightly higher than floor level if need be.

Somewhere I have a discussion of this technique in a Dead Man's Book. I'll see if I can find it.

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KevinCorr

I think that the better new hot water boilers use less energy than a steam boiler. They certainly are more effecient than the old style hw boilers.
Yes, Steam is a great heating medium but for big buildings.

Many people here use the old steam radiators when they convert to hot water. In fact, my city which has a downtown public steam utility (I worked in distribution) forced all their customers to convert to hot water. Some areas were provided with city hot water, some still had steam which they were required to exchange to hot water within a few feet of entering the building. I have seen many steam radiators used with hot water.
The pipe is another matter as advised. I would re-pipe it. That would also give you an opportunity for better zoning.

Jamie Hall

sounds good but

as Steamhead noted, you will or should have to replace all the radiators -- if they don't leak, they will. And all the piping. It is unsuitable for hot water, and if it doesn't leak it will.

And I still don't think there's a way to convert a steam boiler to hot water with any efficiency at all (sure, you could run the hot water zones off the boiler -- folks do, but in the meantime, what do you do with the steam???).

Any possible increase in efficiency with an all new hot water system would be very small, compared against a steam system, nicely tuned up, with a new boiler -- and I assure you, friend, you would never, ever, get your money back.

Just get the steam working right.

Steamhead (in transit)

When you say

"In fact, my city which has a downtown public steam utility (I worked in distribution) forced all their customers to convert to hot water" are you saying they threatened to cut them off if they didn't? What city was it?

What excuse did they give for this unwarranted governmental belligerence?

Did they assume liability for any resulting problems (I think we all know the answer to that!)?

That's one city no one should live in.

"Steamhead"

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Brian_19

Steam rads

I have converted many steam radiators to hot water with no problem what so ever. To say all radiators converted to hot water will leak is a silly statement. Every time a home owner asks about converting to hot water I see the same silly posts about if you do this your doomed. Its about time to stop with this negative attitude.

Steamhead (in transit)

\"no problem what so ever\"

is kind of hard to believe. You mean to tell us you've NEVER had one of these kludges leak or not heat well? Never?

I have never seen one that didn't have issues. That's why our company does not recommend or perform these conversions. We can cut the owner's fuel consumption by about the same amount for far less money.

I hope you have a good lawyer, because when one of your conversions goes bad- and it will, if it hasn't already- you'll need one.

"Steamhead"

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KevinCorr

Steamhead said: "...That's one city no one should live in..."

Fairbanks Alaska. Ha ha, well many would think that for other reasons, eg winters from 0 to -60¡ BELOW!
But a very small portion of the local residents live within the steam service area so it was not much of a political issue.

I always thought that the city was run by morons. On technical matters they never listened to the working man but did things their own ignorant way. It was also always an extreme right wing anti-labor management too.

No one was required to use the city steam service. Anyone could buy their own boiler and burn oil if they chose. No one made that choice because the cost of a steam to hot water exchanger was much cheaper, as was the monthly cost.

The problem that the city was working to solve was the high volume loss of condensate which is very expensive to produce. We found that many buildings were losing it or dumping it instead of returning it to the power plant. Beside the value of the condensate was the problem that the utility bill was based on the condensate meter on the return from the building.

The city attorneys checked to make sure they did not infringe on anyones unalienable Right to Life, Liberty, Cheap Steam Heat and the pursuit of Happiness.

KevinCorr

> your existing steam radiation may not work with

> hot-water at all. And if it does, the vastly

> increased hot-water operating pressure may find

> weak spots and cause leaks.

>

> My company does

> not recommend or perform conversions of steam

> systems to hot-water. Period. Too many things can

> go wrong.

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 367&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Steamhead (in transit)

\"I always thought that the city was run by morons\"

You're right. They didn't go after the scofflaws like they should have. They failed Government 101- but that's true of most.

Vote the bums out. They don't deserve to "serve".

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bill_105

You're micro managing

Why pick on Fairbanks? Here is a state where the majority voted in some hot bimbo to run the state. She started okay but then came fame but no fortune. So she quits her job early to make money on a book deal. This is some gal almost one step away from the presidents office. I think she was actually a gift to the Dems. from God himself. Oh, by the way, The hot water switch, Good luck, your're gonna need it. It's a beautiful summer here on Turnagain arm.

Steamhead (in transit)

But she did

make Tina Fey's career...........

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Steamhead (in transit)

Well, if you'd seen

some of the disasters I have, you'd think differently. They truly are scary. One particular example that I'll never forget was a beautiful old church where a conversion leaked and severely damaged the sanctuary and other parts of the building. It looked like the Devil himself had gotten in there and.......... well, you get the idea. I told the facilities manager that we were not getting involved with it. We had no intention of ending up in court- he let slip that they were preparing to sue the original contractor for the damages.

I think better of my customers than to subject them to that degree of risk, especially when it is totally unwarranted from a fuel-savings and return-on-investment standpoint.

Oh, and if a customer neglects their steam system and you convert it and put in a mod-con, and they neglect it just like they did when it was steam, how long do you think that mod-con will last? And who will be the bad guy when it fails?

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KevinCorr

OK, backing up. You have been advised to:

1- Keep the old steam boiler and get it fixed up.

2- Buy a new highly efficient hot water boiler and replace the piping to the radiators.

3- Replace the old radiators or use the old radiators.
On that issue I have said that I have seen it done but I agree you need to be careful. If used, you would pressure test them, and clean them inside. You don't need a bunch of rust etc in your new boiler. The labor on that would probably exceed the saving of new convectors. The only reason people use the old radiators is for the style, not to save money.

KevinCorr

The cheapest would for sure be to fix up the existing system.

If I could afford to make the investment, I would buy a new high efficiency hot water boiler and completely re pipe.

I can only a guess that it would cut your energy bill. I can't prove it. Actually I don't know the difference between steam and water in fuel consumption.
I assume intuitively that hot water would win, based on the techniques that have been used in recent years to make hot water boilers more efficient. That is by shutting the boiler off and cold starting it on demand, or by modulating the boilers, ie not running them any hotter than necessary. On this experience, you would guess that a steam boiler would be closer in principle to an obsolete old style hot hot water boiler sitting hot even when little or no heat is needed.

Gene_5

heat load

If you are going to even attempt changing out a steam system you'd better do a heat load calculation.

Too many people rip out steam radiators and put in a few feet of baseboard here and there only to find you can't get the house up to 68 once the temp drops below 35 outside, and changing to hot water is a guess, because you are going from 212 degree radiators to 200 at best, usually much less which equates to much less btu output.

The only thing that saves most guys is most steam systems are oversized and we've had mild winters. I had a house here in Ct that was built in the 1800's and they ran baseboard everywhere you could, cranked the boiler up to 220 and it still couldn't heat the house.

Having someone change any equipment out without a heat load calc would be like giving Stevie Wonder the keys to your car to go get a six pack, hope you're not thirsty.

KevinCorr

Gene- That's for sure!! I assumed everyone already knew that!