Steam heat in movie theater

Barbarossa

We did a theater designed by Thomas Lamb in 1922 over the past 4 years it was a community service type project of which I did only the ventilation and the reconstructing of the steam system. They had a new chiller and scorched air prior to that and neglected the existing system because it had been modified by the unknowing. Well with the steam plant restored the heating bills dropped to 40% of the scorched air and the following year it was removed. The fitters in 1922 knew their craft I just followed there lead and restored the system. Further work is required and will be done on the installment plan. As to your specific questions: all can be addressed by one statement which is not intended to slight your skills. Get a local steam person in there for a overview and walk down, as over the years the system has likly had various mod’s done to it, with over a 50% chance of them being wrong. It is a system that needs restored not a boiler. As to the asbestos I leave that to others. Good luck if you pursue this we were glad we did what we did and help save a landmark in our comunity.

Brandon_7

Steam heat in movie theater

I looked at an old movie theater (built in 1938) and am considering purchasing it. It has an old steam system that appears to be non-functional (the boiler is partially submerged in the flooded basement). The caretaker told me it was an old coal system that was converted to natural gas and was last fired about 15 years ago.

The system appears to run steam above the auditorium to a large radiator back stage. A huge squirrel cage blower sucks air from the auditorium and passes it through the radiator and then pushes it to ducts above the auditorium.

My questions are:
1) If the boiler needs to be replaced, is there a simple way to roughly estimate replacement cost - assuming the radiators are fine (maybe valves/traps need replacement).

2) What about asbestos removal - any idea of costs associated with this?

3) The boiler and this system is both scary and amazing-looking. Should I just run away? Have you seen anything like this before?

4) What sorts of issues exist with these converted coal units?

Thanks

nicholas bonham-carter

steam movie theater

see if there is a way to get the caretaker to drain the water out so you can see the burner, and its model nos. that may be the principal cost with getting this system up and running. the piping in the other picture looks surprisingly good [unmolested by knuckleheads-only rust!]. i see there seems to be an electric main steam valve, maybe one of several, which may need to be replaced. i think it's a good possibility that this system, with new burner, and valves could continue to produce steam.


i would be more worried about the roof. are you intending to keep it as a movie theater? if converting to stage use, there may be a lack of space in the screen/stage area.--nbc

Erich_3

Kawanee Boiler

That old Kawanee boiler looks to be in pretty good shape. Can you determine the person or company that used to service it? Very often there may be a retired servicer who knows the boiler. It is usually an easy matter to start up those old converted boilers as they had things to go wrong. Will the building be used as a theater?

MikeyB

boiler

It might be worth your time and money to have a boiler guy come out and look things over for you, Just to see how much it would take to get the boiler up and running and then be able to check the operation of the boiler, operation of steam traps, check steam coils for leaks, electric steam valves, t-stats, and blower operation,etc, Looks like a good investment if all the repairs/relacements are within your budget. An abatement os the asbestos could be high in cost, but worth it. Good Luck Brandon

Unknown

I would say

I would say if the place being used as theater, the fire sprinkler system would be the biggest cost...

Steamhead (in transit)

Answers and a question

1- We need to know how much heat the steam coils ("radiators") can emit to the air stream, as well as the sizes of any other radiation in the building. Even if they are the 1938 originals, often we can find data on them. Or, if the building's original plans are available, their capacities might be found there.

See if you can get a make and model on each coil- there should be a tag somewhere. If we're lucky, the coil's capacities may appear on the tags. Then we know what size boiler is needed. Don't go by the present boiler size, they may have oversized it so they wouldn't have to shovel coal so often.

2- Asbestos removal in most locales must be done by a licensed abatement contractor. This looks like it won't be cheap, but might be required before an occupancy permit is issued.

3- Kewanee boilers were some of the better boilers of their time. But since that one has been flooded, anything that was under water will need to be completely replaced. This would include but not be limited to the burner, controls and firebox refractory.

Your local Code authorities or insurance company may require that the entire boiler be replaced since part of it was under water. If they don't, get an ASME-certified steel boiler repair company to look it over, and follow their recommendations.

4- As long as the conversion was done properly, and the boiler is in good shape and has the proper controls (CSD-1 Code applies in most locales), you should be fine.

Question- Where is this building located?

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oil-2-4-6-gas

all that was under water will need to be replaced --why was it underwater? it may be part of the boiler itself that let-go -could need costly repairs 20k //---definetly new burner,all new firebox--15-20k ---your coils in those pictures are shot the corners are gone --the rest of the system cant really be assessed until you can get some steam moving - thats when the fun begins ---how long has the place been abandoned? how deep are your pockets -? how cheap is the building ?

Brandon_7

Steam heat in movie theater - response

Thanks to all you guys who responded. Great show.

The intent would be to use the building as a theater/live performance venue. The building is the Vogue theater in Manistee Michigan.

The theater is built into a hillside. It's built on a spring. The present owners disconnected the power and the sump pump stopped working so the basement flooded.

My sense is that the original system would work but it's hard to find a good steam guy. On my personal residence, I tried to have some quotes done to have my boiler replaced. Guys that claimed to "know" steam really have not read the Lost Art of Steam Heat and don't have any clue what they're doing. I got tired of teaching people and did it myself. For the theater, I can only imagine it's gonna be even worse.

The budget figures are helpful at least for a rough plan.

Since the boiler was partially submerged, I imagine that the the burner would need replacement. The gas line and valve are clearly shot. I guess it's an unknown until the basement is drained.

Feel free to comment some more on the pics, Kewanee boilers, and if anybody else is familiar with such a set up (e.g. the steam radiator and squirrel cage blower).

Steamhead (in transit)

Sounds like

an interesting project! If you need another set of eyes let me know, I've been known to travel for steam.

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nicholas bonham-carter

built on a spring??????

i think the water must come from some other source than a spring. it looks too clean to be ground water. surely there is a piping leak somewhere.--nbc

Jamie Hall

Fascinating!

With regard to your number 3, indeed I have seen something like it before -- the Warner Theatre in Torrington, CT, which I was a little involved with at one time during its initial restoration. It had been flooded (15 feet of water over the stage) and then left dark for almost 20 years. Interesting job -- but you should see it now, so it can be done. We did much what you are doing: it had been a movie house, and as restored, it's both stage (musicals, ballet, legit., touring shows) and movies. Nick's right: the backstage area, for live shows, is, to put it mildly, cramped, but usable with ingenuity.

As to the heating system, that sort of system was pretty common in theatres, and works well. It does, sadly, look as though the corners of the coils are shot, but if the pipes are intact you may be alright anyway on that. Steamhead's comment about capacity is right on. New boilers are available, and will likely be more efficient. I'm not equipped to say whether that Kewanee is saveable; ours in the Warner wasn't.

If there isn't a really good steam guy in your area (and there may well not be) it will be worth your time and everyone's money to negotiate with one of the really top-notch guys on the Wall here (such as Steamhead, whom I can recommend very highly) to come and advise and supervise.

One thing you didn't mention, but you really need to look at: in many theatres of this type, the air return was under the floor of the house -- a space under the sloping floor acted like a huge plenum. If the Vogue was built that way, that plenum will need to be cleaned. Guaranteed. This can be done at the same time as any asbestos abatement is done, and likely by the same contractor.

Don't run away! Get your community organised and backing you, and have at it and have fun -- and from experience I can tell you that one of the greatest thrills you will ever have is when the curtain goes up on your first show in your restored theatre!!!

Unknown

could this be?

Could this be the next location for 'Steamstock' (Woodstock) ??? Is the building large enough to handle it? Where's is this in Michigan?

Brandon_7

Steam heat in movie theater

A lot of you guys have mentioned that the corners of the coils were shot. Can these be repaired or must the entire coil be replaced? The coil is probably 6 feet tall by 8 feet wide or so.

The place has been dark about 2 years, but the steam system has not been fired in at least 10 to 15. The theater was heated by hanging gas units and some auxiliary boilers in the basement for the lobby area (baseboard units).

The theater is in Manistee Michigan. Yes, perhaps when I get a little farther along, I will probably solicit someone on the wall to give me an opinion about the system and what really needs to be done.

Thanks again. I've enjoyed reading your comments. Very useful.

Jamie Hall

Maybe, maybe not

on the corners of the coils. Without actually looking at them and whacking the pipes, and pressure testing perhaps, I don't think anyone would want to say for sure. The fins certainly do not appear to be there, but I wonder if that may be partly original. The real question is: are the pipes which go from header to header intact? If they are (and I wouldn't be that surprised if they were) then you really don't have a problem; the missing fins are trivial. In any event, believe it or not making such a thing shouldn't be that hard for a decent pipe spinner, and shouldn't even be that outrageous in terms of cost. Certainly not a show stopper. In my opinion, anyway!